Ken Pomeroy ranks all 353 teams since 1997

[shoothoops]

He has data from 1997 to the present. Marquette comes in at..................33.

https://kenpom.com/programs.php

https://mobile.twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/1159823740814929920

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That seems about right

[The Lens]

5th best Catholic School

#7 Nova
#12 Zags
#25 X
#29 Notre Dame

Around the Big East:

#36 Gtown
#44 Creighton
#47 Butler
#53 Providence
#67 Seton Hall
#75 St. John's
#101 DePaul

(Dayton #79, SLU #93, St. Thomas NR)

[Galway Eagle]

Not bad considering the last Deane team, first two cream seasons, and first Wojo season are in that time frame.

Take even the first three of those four out and I bet we just up big time

[Its DJOver]

Not bad considering the last Deane team, first two cream seasons, and first Wojo season are in that time frame.

Take even the first three of those four out and I bet we just up big time

Yep, wanna see how just a few bad years can kill an average, look at UCONN

[Marcus92]

No big surprises in the Top 10 -- although I suspect #7 Villanova and #9 Florida wouldn't have been nearly this high in 1997.

At that point, before Jay Wright arrived, the Wildcats were a very good program. But UConn, Georgetown and Syracuse were better in the Big East. And Florida was yet to enter its dominant period with Billy Donovan.

#10 Texas has fallen significantly in recent years. The Longhorns have cracked the Top 25 just twice in the past eight seasons, and haven't finished in the Top 10 since 2010-11.

#12 Gonzaga is rising fast, with five Top 10 finishes in the past 7 seasons.

#13 UCLA is a similar story to Texas. Just two Top 25 finishes in the past 10 seasons -- including six years outside the Top 50 and two years where they fell out of the Top 100 altogether (2009-10 and 2018-19).

#15 Syracuse has been slowly slipping for a while. No Top 25 finishes in the past five seasons, and only nine Top 25 finishes since 2001.

#17 Virginia is on the rise, with five Top 10 finishes in the past 6 seasons.

#18 Indiana's been headed the other direction, with just one Top 25 finish in 6 years. The same goes for #19 UConn (one Top 25 finish in the last 8 seasons). #22 Memphis has been dropping big time since John Calipari left; only one Top 25 finish in the past 10 seasons.

I'm surprised Illinois ranks as high as it does (#23). Only two Top 25 finishes in the past 13 seasons, with six straight years outside the Top 50. Just shows how good they were under Lon Kruger, Bill Self and Bruce Weber.

Maybe the program that's falling the fastest is #32 Stanford. Eleven straight seasons missing the top 25, including four years outside the Top 100.

Hopefully Marquette can climb the ladder over the next 5-10 years.

[GooooMarquette]

5th best Catholic School

#7 Nova
#12 Zags
#25 X
#29 Notre Dame

Around the Big East:

#36 Gtown
#44 Creighton
#47 Butler
#53 Providence
#67 Seton Hall
#75 St. John's
#101 DePaul

(Dayton #79, SLU #93, St. Thomas NR)

So Dayton and SLU (as well as BC, St. Joe’s, and St. Mary’s) are higher than DePaul....

#sleepinggiant

[Galway Eagle]

So Dayton and SLU (as well as BC, St. Joe’s, and St. Mary’s) are higher than DePaul....

#sleepinggiant

#comatosegiant

[Marcus92]

So Dayton and SLU (as well as BC, St. Joe’s, and St. Mary’s) are higher than DePaul....

DePaul's ranking isn't really out of line with the worst teams in other Power 6 conferences -- such as #95 Oregon State and #98 Washington State in the Pac 12, #85 Northwestern and #102 Rutgers in the Big 10, or even #87 TCU in the Big 12.

But the fact remains DePaul has consistently been the anchor of the Big East (and not in a good way like something you can count on for reliable support).

[Herman Cain]

Here is the methodology used:

https://kenpom.com/blog/program-ratings/

[D'Lo Brown]

Yep, wanna see how just a few bad years can kill an average, look at UCONN

What is uconn's ranking?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What is uconn's ranking?

19th, despite the most championships in that time period

[Dr. Blackheart]

First, great that KPom added more years to his sample.

Second, if 33 is the MU benchmark, let’s look at this by coach as to how many of their teams beat that.

Wojo’s: One beat (32 two years ago) and one meet (last season) in five seasons—40%
Buzz: Five beats in six years—83%
Crean: Three beats in nine years—33%
Deane: No beats in three measured years—A big donut

Buzz had the most offensively and defensively balanced teams. Wojo and Crean skew(ed) more offensive, and Deane to the defense. This tells me that Wojo = Crean so far with Wade being the difference. Crean was more up and down for sure, while Wojo is trending more slowly up. You can see why fans are waiting for his breakthrough, though. This is a big year for Wojo.

[Stronghold]

No big surprises in the Top 10 -- although I suspect #7 Villanova and #9 Florida wouldn't have been nearly this high in 1997.

#10 Texas has fallen significantly in recent years. The Longhorns have cracked the Top 25 just twice in the past eight seasons, and haven't finished in the Top 10 since 2010-11.

I was going to say Texas was my only surprise in the Top 10.  They must have been really good early on in this time frame to make up for their last 8 years.

[BM1090]

First, great that KPom added more years to his sample.

Second, if 33 is the MU benchmark, let’s look at this by coach as to how many of their teams beat that.

Wojo’s: One beat (32 two years ago) and one meet (last season) in six seasons—33%
Buzz: Five beats in six years—83%
Crean: Three beats in nine years—33%
Deane: No beats in three measured years—A big donut

Buzz had the most offensively and defensively balanced teams. Wojo and Crean skew(ed) more offensive, and Deane to the defense. This tells me that Wojo = Crean so far with Wade being the difference. Crean was more up and down for sure, while Wojo is trending more slowly up. You can see why fans are waiting for his breakthrough, though. This is a big year for Wojo.

Good post. One small correction, Wojo has only been here 5 seasons.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Good post. One small correction, Wojo has only been here 5 seasons.

Corrected.  Thanks

[PointWarrior]

I assume Kenpom has Bucky at #1. 

[brewcity77]

I assume Kenpom has Bucky at #1.

I was actually surprised to see them down at #16.

[MU82]

First, great that KPom added more years to his sample.

Second, if 33 is the MU benchmark, let’s look at this by coach as to how many of their teams beat that.

Wojo’s: One beat (32 two years ago) and one meet (last season) in five seasons—40%
Buzz: Five beats in six years—83%
Crean: Three beats in nine years—33%
Deane: No beats in three measured years—A big donut

Buzz had the most offensively and defensively balanced teams. Wojo and Crean skew(ed) more offensive, and Deane to the defense. This tells me that Wojo = Crean so far with Wade being the difference. Crean was more up and down for sure, while Wojo is trending more slowly up. You can see why fans are waiting for his breakthrough, though. This is a big year for Wojo.

Informative, level-headed post.

I'm no Crean apologist (or Crean hater), but one small quibble is that I don't think it's fair when some say stuff like, "If not for Wade, he wouldn't have done as well." The fact is, he got Wade, and he deserves credit for it not an asterisk for it. (Not saying you do this, Dr. B.)

Agree that this should be a big year for Wojo. Not sure if MU administration feels the same (from a "going on hot seat" standpoint), but maybe they do.

[dgies9156]

A couple of general thoughts about how tantalizingly close we are to "being back."

1) Take out the Deane years and the first two Wojo years and... Wow.
2) What separates us from the Top 10-15 teams is consistency. When we're good, we're really very good. When we're bad, well, we're horrid.

What this seems to say more than anything is consistency is everything. That's why I'm pulling for Wojo to have a big year this year -- both on the floor and recruiting. If we get a Top 10 class (and we're on our way to doing so) and go deep in the NCAA tournament, he's going to be the guy. I have no doubt he's as close as we're going to have to a lifer.

Hausergate was a BIG setback in my view. It takes away from the consistency we crave and need and puts pressure on the coach and the remaining guys to play and work outside their skill set. If we recover from this with few bumps and bruises, Coach Wojo will be someone special.

Short answer -- The teams at the top are consistent, in coaching, recruiting prowess and in winning. We can be there, but we have work to do.

[IrwinFletcher]

5th best Catholic School

#7 Nova
#12 Zags
#25 X
#29 Notre Dame

Around the Big East:

#36 Gtown
#44 Creighton
#47 Butler
#53 Providence
#67 Seton Hall
#75 St. John's
#101 DePaul

(Dayton #79, SLU #93, St. Thomas NR)

Well done good Sir.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I was actually surprised to see them down at #16.

Like it or not, 22/24 NCAAs, three Final 4’s during that span over four coaches. MU has missed the Big Dance four out of the last six. This isn’t bashing Wojo as his job was to reset the program...but between MU fans’ expectations based on history and who MU competes with in public sentiment, expectations are sky high.

[willie warrior]

5th best Catholic School

#7 Nova
#12 Zags
#25 X
#29 Notre Dame

Around the Big East:

#36 Gtown
#44 Creighton
#47 Butler
#53 Providence
#67 Seton Hall
#75 St. John's
#101 DePaul

(Dayton #79, SLU #93, St. Thomas NR)

No reason why we should not be #1 Catholic school, except for those who accept mediocrity

[Galway Eagle]

No reason why we should not be #1 Catholic school, except for those who accept mediocrity

I wonder how many other schools have a fan saying this. Not everyone can be first

[Dr. Blackheart]

Informative, level-headed post.

I'm no Crean apologist (or Crean hater), but one small quibble is that I don't think it's fair when some say stuff like, "If not for Wade, he wouldn't have done as well." The fact is, he got Wade, and he deserves credit for it not an asterisk for it. (Not saying you do this, Dr. B.)

I agree that footnote on Crean is unfair as he did sign him and develop him so he should get credit. The reason I did mention that is that put Crean into the elite...but it was the anomaly to his norm that came after at MU and IU...which is very seasaw’ish versus Wojo who is on a slow burn up—but with similar comps to this point.

On the Wojo hot-seat issue, a four seed and a top 1-3 BE finish with a NCAA run, he is good to go. This team is built very differently than his past teams...more like a Buzz balanced team on both sides of the ball.

[Its DJOver]

I wonder how many other schools have a fan saying this. Not everyone can be first

We're all just a bunch of Cal Naughton Jr's in a room with the man, the myth, the legend himself Ricky "Willie" Bobby.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

A couple of general thoughts about how tantalizingly close we are to "being back."

1) Take out the Deane years and the first two Wojo years and... Wow.
2) What separates us from the Top 10-15 teams is consistency. When we're good, we're really very good. When we're bad, well, we're horrid.

What this seems to say more than anything is consistency is everything. That's why I'm pulling for Wojo to have a big year this year -- both on the floor and recruiting. If we get a Top 10 class (and we're on our way to doing so) and go deep in the NCAA tournament, he's going to be the guy. I have no doubt he's as close as we're going to have to a lifer.

Hausergate was a BIG setback in my view. It takes away from the consistency we crave and need and puts pressure on the coach and the remaining guys to play and work outside their skill set. If we recover from this with few bumps and bruises, Coach Wojo will be someone special.

Short answer -- The teams at the top are consistent, in coaching, recruiting prowess and in winning. We can be there, but we have work to do.

Hausers really screwed the program.  We are a shoe in top 10 team next year with a lot of preseason buzz and potentially a national player of the year.   I can only imagine what our recuiting this summer would look like with that national notoriety n buzz over the summer. 
Why i struggle with people saying they wish them the best and hold no ill will.  I hold ill will n surely wont be rooting for them.

[The Lens]

Hausers really screwed the program.  We are a shoe in top 10 team next year with a lot of preseason buzz and potentially a national player of the year.   I can only imagine what our recuiting this summer would look like with that national notoriety n buzz over the summer. 
Why i struggle with people saying they wish them the best and hold no ill will.  I hold ill will n surely wont be rooting for them.

Your honesty is refreshing.  Be careful though, ill will is very cold, you hold it too long and you might get frostbite.

[LloydsLegs]

5th best Catholic School

#7 Nova
#12 Zags
#25 X
#29 Notre Dame

Around the Big East:

#36 Gtown
#44 Creighton
#47 Butler
#53 Providence
#67 Seton Hall
#75 St. John's
#101 DePaul

(Dayton #79, SLU #93, St. Thomas NR)

well played

[Dr. Blackheart]

well played

Lens wins Scoop today

[MU82]

I agree that footnote on Crean is unfair as he did sign him and develop him so he should get credit. The reason I did mention that is that put Crean into the elite...but it was the anomaly to his norm that came after at MU and IU...which is very seasaw’ish versus Wojo who is on a slow burn up—but with similar comps to this point.

On the Wojo hot-seat issue, a four seed and a top 1-3 BE finish with a NCAA run, he is good to go. This team is built very differently than his past teams...more like a Buzz balanced team on both sides of the ball.

Good points.

Crean did get Zeller and Oladipo to Indiana, too. They, and Yogi Ferrell, were on the team that got crushed by Cuse the same day we crushed Miami to reach the Elite 8 in DC.  He recruited a lot of pretty darn good players but has only the one truly great season in 19 years to show for it. So you certainly have a point about his overall body of work.

[Galway Eagle]

Good points.

Crean did get Zeller and Oladipo to Indiana, too. They, and Yogi Ferrell, were on the team that got crushed by Cuse the same day we crushed Miami to reach the Elite 8 in DC.  He recruited a lot of pretty darn good players but has only the one truly great season in 19 years to show for it. So you certainly have a point about his overall body of work.

29-7, win B1G, sweet 16 seems like a  great season to me. I still think crean threw that game against Cuse to avoid embarrassingly losing to his former school

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

29-7, win B1G, sweet 16 seems like a  great season to me. I still think crean threw that game against Cuse to avoid embarrassingly losing to his former school

With that recruiting class?  It was a disappointment.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Good points.

Crean did get Zeller and Oladipo to Indiana, too. They, and Yogi Ferrell, were on the team that got crushed by Cuse the same day we crushed Miami to reach the Elite 8 in DC.  He recruited a lot of pretty darn good players but has only the one truly great season in 19 years to show for it. So you certainly have a point about his overall body of work.

His IU teams were also good to great offensively and mediocre to poor defensively just like at MU. Same pattern. Good D on a poor offensive night can win you a crapshoot.  CTC has earned his nickname "The Turtle". 

[MU82]

29-7, win B1G, sweet 16 seems like a  great season to me. I still think crean threw that game against Cuse to avoid embarrassingly losing to his former school

I guess it depends on how you define "great." Granted, I'd be happy with that season in a vacuum, but given the talent, and given that was his very best season in a decade there, I can see why HoosierLand might have not been as generous as you.

[Galway Eagle]

I guess it depends on how you define "great." Granted, I'd be happy with that season in a vacuum, but given the talent, and given that was his very best season in a decade there, I can see why HoosierLand might have not been as generous as you.

Fair enough. It does seem like they still have a similar mindset as the UCLA fans that believe wins are their god given right.

[Cheeks]

Not bad considering the last Deane team, first two cream seasons, and first Wojo season are in that time frame.

Take even the first three of those four out and I bet we just up big time

And the last Buzz team

[Cheeks]

First, great that KPom added more years to his sample.

Second, if 33 is the MU benchmark, let’s look at this by coach as to how many of their teams beat that.

Wojo’s: One beat (32 two years ago) and one meet (last season) in five seasons—40%
Buzz: Five beats in six years—83%
Crean: Three beats in nine years—33%
Deane: No beats in three measured years—A big donut

Buzz had the most offensively and defensively balanced teams. Wojo and Crean skew(ed) more offensive, and Deane to the defense. This tells me that Wojo = Crean so far with Wade being the difference. Crean was more up and down for sure, while Wojo is trending more slowly up. You can see why fans are waiting for his breakthrough, though. This is a big year for Wojo.

Buzz walked into a great situation that first year and then crapped on it in the last year.  Yes, he was a very good coach in between that couldn’t keep his guys (players and coaches) within the swim lanes required, but that first year Lenny could have guided that team to the tournament.

[Cheeks]

Good points.

Crean did get Zeller and Oladipo to Indiana, too. They, and Yogi Ferrell, were on the team that got crushed by Cuse the same day we crushed Miami to reach the Elite 8 in DC.  He recruited a lot of pretty darn good players but has only the one truly great season in 19 years to show for it. So you certainly have a point about his overall body of work.

They were ranked #1 most of the year and lost in the Sweet 16.  Won multiple Big Ten titles.  He has had to rebuild at every location.  Some coaches get to walk into dream scenarios, some do not.

[Galway Eagle]

And the last Buzz team

I was trying to keep it realistic that a program like MU will have the occasional decent but not great season like the last buzz or the Henry year or the three NITs between Wojo and post FF crean

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz walked into a great situation that first year and then crapped on it in the last year.  Yes, he was a very good coach in between that couldn’t keep his guys (players and coaches) within the swim lanes required, but that first year Lenny could have guided that team to the tournament.

As the good Doctor pointed out, Buzz 83%, Crean 33%. Oh, and Chico 100% - 100% bullish#t.

Thanks for the props on my basketball acumen. Like Buzz, it didn't take much time for me to figure out that James should be shooting less and Wesley should be shooting more. TC hadn't figured it out after watching them for 3 years, though. In his defense, maybe he was relying on the Chiconian Principle of "5 years to judge" - maybe he would have agreed with Buzz and me after Wes's first year in the association. LOL.

[Dr. Blackheart]

And the last Buzz team...looks like two thirds of Crean’s.

CTC Suckelor

[willie warrior]

I wonder how many other schools have a fan saying this. Not everyone can be first

Right. But no reason why we are not, except for mediocrity mentality by fans and admin.

[Cheeks]

As the good Doctor pointed out, Buzz 83%, Crean 33%. Oh, and Chico 100% - 100% bullish#t.

Thanks for the props on my basketball acumen. Like Buzz, it didn't take much time for me to figure out that James should be shooting less and Wesley should be shooting more. TC hadn't figured it out after watching them for 3 years, though. In his defense, maybe he was relying on the Chiconian Principle of "5 years to judge" - maybe he would have agreed with Buzz and me after Wes's first year in the association. LOL.

I guess Buzz hadn’t figured it out only a few weeks after beating them....what did we score against Cuse....did we break 40 points?

[Cheeks]

CTC Suckelor

Changing someone’s actual quote.....well, same guy that advocates cheating so why should I be surprised.

[real chili 83]

Right. But no reason why we are not, except for mediocrity mentality by fans and admin.

Willie, I guarantee this administration doesn’t want mediocrity. Your definition of the journey and their’s is just different. 

[Shooter McGavin]

A couple of general thoughts about how tantalizingly close we are to "being back."

1) Take out the Deane years and the first two Wojo years and... Wow.
2) What separates us from the Top 10-15 teams is consistency. When we're good, we're really very good. When we're bad, well, we're horrid.

What this seems to say more than anything is consistency is everything. That's why I'm pulling for Wojo to have a big year this year -- both on the floor and recruiting. If we get a Top 10 class (and we're on our way to doing so) and go deep in the NCAA tournament, he's going to be the guy. I have no doubt he's as close as we're going to have to a lifer.

Hausergate was a BIG setback in my view. It takes away from the consistency we crave and need and puts pressure on the coach and the remaining guys to play and work outside their skill set. If we recover from this with few bumps and bruises, Coach Wojo will be someone special.

Short answer -- The teams at the top are consistent, in coaching, recruiting prowess and in winning. We can be there, but we have work to do.

Agree with all of this.