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Author Topic: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team  (Read 2898 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2019, 04:07:31 PM »
CTC,s guys didn’t get us on the front page of the Chicago Tribune for all the wrong reasons.  Nor did he get himself suspended, nor did he have his assistant lie to the AD during an internal investigation, etc,etc.  I guess CTC was just better at hiding it or not being as stupid publicly.

CTC had an AD and a president who had his back and helped cover his and players tracks. Buzz had an AD and a president who were unqualified clowns who felt their job was to "get" him. Do you honestly think that if one of Crean's assistants who have given a recruit a t-shirt or a ride home that Cords/Wild would have turned it into The Inquisition?  Please.

tower912

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »
Lazar>Ellenson
I would bring Lazar, DJO, and Theo off the bench and win a National Championship.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Newsdreams

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2019, 07:03:16 PM »
I would bring Lazar, DJO, and Theo off the bench and win a National Championship.
Crapshoot

Herman Cain

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2019, 07:12:24 PM »
I would bring Lazar, DJO, and Theo off the bench and win a National Championship.
Ellenson was not a team player. The other three guys you mentioned are.
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Cheeks

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2019, 07:23:47 PM »
Lenny

Did the administration clamp down after CTC or after Buzz?  What straws broke the camel’s back and who was the coach? 

Good day sir.

"To win a national championship or go deep into the tournament, it's sometimes a crapshoot. You've got to be good enough, you've got to be lucky, you've got to be a lot of things."
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PTM

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2019, 08:30:41 PM »
Lazar>Ellenson

Tough call, but I think Henry would thrive more in that lineup than Lazar.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2019, 07:42:57 AM »
Tough call, but I think Henry would thrive more in that lineup than Lazar.

I think Lazar could thrive in any lineup.  Not denigrating Henry who was/is probably a better overall player but Lazar was more impactful at Marquette
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brewcity77

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2019, 10:09:09 AM »
I think Lazar could thrive in any lineup.  Not denigrating Henry who was/is probably a better overall player but Lazar was more impactful at Marquette

It's an interesting debate. Lazar certainly could. Guy was what, 6'5" and defending centers that had 5-7 inches on him regularly? He was one of the highest basketball IQ players I can recall and could play anything from 2-5. He was just a really, really good college basketball player.

Henry wasn't as smart on either end, wasn't near as good a defender, but he was far more a physical presence and was a matchup nightmare for defenses because he was a 6'11" physical presence that could put it on the floor and take you inside or stretch defenders to the arc. While Lazar was more polished, we also remember him as an experienced senior who was old for his class due to playing a prep year. Freshman Henry vs Freshman Lazar, there is zero doubt that you take Ellenson every single time. Freshman Henry vs Senior Lazar, there's a debate. Had we ever seen Senior Henry, I don't think there would be a debate.

Galway Eagle

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2019, 10:33:54 AM »
It's an interesting debate. Lazar certainly could. Guy was what, 6'5" and defending centers that had 5-7 inches on him regularly? He was one of the highest basketball IQ players I can recall and could play anything from 2-5. He was just a really, really good college basketball player.

Henry wasn't as smart on either end, wasn't near as good a defender, but he was far more a physical presence and was a matchup nightmare for defenses because he was a 6'11" physical presence that could put it on the floor and take you inside or stretch defenders to the arc. While Lazar was more polished, we also remember him as an experienced senior who was old for his class due to playing a prep year. Freshman Henry vs Freshman Lazar, there is zero doubt that you take Ellenson every single time. Freshman Henry vs Senior Lazar, there's a debate. Had we ever seen Senior Henry, I don't think there would be a debate.

I think you're giving Henry wayyyy too much credit for being able to stretch defenders to the arc. Sure he took those shots but he couldn't hit them to save his life. Lazar actually could though. And while we havent seen senior Henry, he hasnt looked ;ike hes addressed any of his gaps since hes been in the NBA. I'd take jr and sr Lazar over freshman Henry.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 10:42:23 AM by Galway Eagle »
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Herman Cain

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2019, 10:43:48 AM »
I think you're giving Henry wayyyy too much credit for being able to stretch defenders to the arc. Sure he took those shots but he couldn't hit them to save his life. Lazar actually could though. And while we havent seen senior Henry, he hasnt looked ;ike hes addressed any of his gaps since hes been in the NBA. I'd take jr and sr Lazar over freshman Henry.
I agree with this analysis.
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brewcity77

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2019, 10:56:10 AM »
I think you're giving Henry wayyyy too much credit for being able to stretch defenders to the arc. Sure he took those shots but he couldn't hit them to save his life. Lazar actually could though. And while we havent seen senior Henry, he hasnt looked ;ike hes addressed any of his gaps since hes been in the NBA. I'd take jr and sr Lazar over freshman Henry.

Freshman year Henry hit 28.8% beyond the arc with 30 makes. Freshman year Lazar hit 20.8% beyond the arc with 10 makes. Sure, Lazar was a career 35.7% shooter from three, but his 34.9% accuracy as a senior was decent but not great. Henry was better inside the arc and they were pretty comparable in terms of eFG% (48.0 for Henry, 49.5 for senior Lazar) and Henry was the better rebounder and shot-blocker.

Henry was a good enough three-point shooter that you had to defend him out to the arc. Also, for all-decade, it would have to be senior year Lazar. I wouldn't disagree with people that took Lazar as the better overall player, and I'd probably take Lazar as the better overall player as well. But Henry did have length, rebounding, and shot-altering ability that Lazar simply couldn't match. Because of that, you can make an argument for either of them, especially as Henry could hit those shots. He wasn't quite as good as senior year Lazar, but he was good enough that he had to be defended there.

jsglow

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2019, 11:44:07 AM »
Jae is the only one who would not be allowed today. Would the others not be targeted by the current staff?  Couldn't say for sure

TAMU has it exactly correct as I understand it. The only policy change I am aware of is the prohibition against signing guys who simply cannot graduate by the time their scholarships expires. It was deemed  'using' someone for basketball. That said, everyone at MU is very proud of Jae and his accomplishments.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2019, 05:33:53 PM »
The NCAAs also had a say in it.  Junior’s high school faced the same scrutiny. And MU isn’t accepting correspondence classes any more (which also came under scrutiny).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--ncaa-investigating-basketball-powerhouse-prep-school.html

Galway Eagle

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2019, 09:01:47 PM »
Freshman year Henry hit 28.8% beyond the arc with 30 makes. Freshman year Lazar hit 20.8% beyond the arc with 10 makes. Sure, Lazar was a career 35.7% shooter from three, but his 34.9% accuracy as a senior was decent but not great. Henry was better inside the arc and they were pretty comparable in terms of eFG% (48.0 for Henry, 49.5 for senior Lazar) and Henry was the better rebounder and shot-blocker.

Henry was a good enough three-point shooter that you had to defend him out to the arc. Also, for all-decade, it would have to be senior year Lazar. I wouldn't disagree with people that took Lazar as the better overall player, and I'd probably take Lazar as the better overall player as well. But Henry did have length, rebounding, and shot-altering ability that Lazar simply couldn't match. Because of that, you can make an argument for either of them, especially as Henry could hit those shots. He wasn't quite as good as senior year Lazar, but he was good enough that he had to be defended there.

I don't personally think 28% is respectable enough to even be scouted. I'm sure Theo could hit that much if he worked at it.

Definitely was remembering Lazar as a better shooter than he apparently was though.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2019, 09:08:40 PM »
I don't personally think 28% is respectable enough to even be scouted. I'm sure Theo could hit that much if he worked at it.

Theo can’t hit anything more than a layup. No chance he could hit threes at a nearly 30% clip.

Galway Eagle

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2019, 10:30:05 PM »
Theo can’t hit anything more than a layup. No chance he could hit threes at a nearly 30% clip.

It was sarcastic hyperbole
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

brewcity77

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2019, 07:03:13 AM »
I don't personally think 28% is respectable enough to even be scouted. I'm sure Theo could hit that much if he worked at it.

Definitely was remembering Lazar as a better shooter than he apparently was though.

That wasn't a team blessed with three point shooters, no one shot over 40% and Henry was second on the team in made threes. He hit multiple threes 7 times in a game. In those games, Marquette was 7-0. I get that he wasn't Howard or Hauser, but unless you aren't guarding the arc period, you guard that guy at the arc.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:35:55 AM by brewcity77 »

wadesworld

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2019, 08:43:06 AM »
Lazar also had the benefit of having Dominic, Wesley, and Jerel slashing and being the 4th player on the opponent's scouting report through his junior season.  And even his senior year, while he was the man, he had junior year Jimmy and sophomore DJO next to him.

Henry was first, second, third, and fourth on the opponent's scouting report from day 1 at Marquette.

Lennys Tap

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2019, 08:51:06 AM »
TAMU has it exactly correct as I understand it. The only policy change I am aware of is the prohibition against signing guys who simply cannot graduate by the time their scholarships expires. It was deemed  'using' someone for basketball. That said, everyone at MU is very proud of Jae and his accomplishments.

Marquette didn't "use" Jae. On the contrary, Jae, as Al used to say, "used basketball". He matured as a person and a player at MU and now he's a multi millionaire.

Galway Eagle

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2019, 12:11:38 PM »
Lazar also had the benefit of having Dominic, Wesley, and Jerel slashing and being the 4th player on the opponent's scouting report through his junior season.  And even his senior year, while he was the man, he had junior year Jimmy and sophomore DJO next to him.

Henry was first, second, third, and fourth on the opponent's scouting report from day 1 at Marquette.

I disagree. I think Lazar's 16.3ppg and 8.6rpg more than warranted being on par with Wes's 18.5ppg and 5.7rpg or James' 11ppg and 5apg.

I also think that if you're including DJO as a sophomore at 13ppg 2.6rpg and 2.4apg, as being on top the scouting report that you should give Haanif (11.8ppg, 3.4rpg, 2.2apg), Duane (11.6ppg, 2.6rpg. 2.5apg) and Luke (12.1ppg, 6.2rpg)  their dues. No there wasn't a Jimmy butler next to Henry but there was multiple "DJOs"

Chances are I'm overvaluing Lazar, he's my favorite player since I became a fan but I saw him through the eyes of a HS senior & freshman in college. However, I maintain that Henry did not have a good outside shot, made some really god awful plays and given how he did in the NBA/GLeague he likely had already hit his peak and wouldn't have progressed hugely as time went on and the talent caught up to him.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Herman Cain

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2019, 01:30:39 PM »
I disagree. I think Lazar's 16.3ppg and 8.6rpg more than warranted being on par with Wes's 18.5ppg and 5.7rpg or James' 11ppg and 5apg.

I also think that if you're including DJO as a sophomore at 13ppg 2.6rpg and 2.4apg, as being on top the scouting report that you should give Haanif (11.8ppg, 3.4rpg, 2.2apg), Duane (11.6ppg, 2.6rpg. 2.5apg) and Luke (12.1ppg, 6.2rpg)  their dues. No there wasn't a Jimmy butler next to Henry but there was multiple "DJOs"

Chances are I'm overvaluing Lazar, he's my favorite player since I became a fan but I saw him through the eyes of a HS senior & freshman in college. However, I maintain that Henry did not have a good outside shot, made some really god awful plays and given how he did in the NBA/GLeague he likely had already hit his peak and wouldn't have progressed hugely as time went on and the talent caught up to him.
In my world there is no such thing as overvaluing Lazar. He was always undervalued. A total team player who did what it took to win and still put up big stats. We need more Lazars .
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »
By the numbers, yes. But Junior was simply a winner, leading MU to a 53-17 (.757) record in his two seasons as a starter -- including appearances in the Sweet 16 and Elite Eight. Buzz himself said "I've always thought Junior was the key to our team."


They would have won even more with a better point guard.  Couldn't shoot and an absolute liability on defense.  Markus and DJO in the backcourt would run over any team on which junior starts.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: [Paint Touches] MU All-Decade Team
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2019, 01:58:19 PM »
I disagree. I think Lazar's 16.3ppg and 8.6rpg more than warranted being on par with Wes's 18.5ppg and 5.7rpg or James' 11ppg and 5apg.

I also think that if you're including DJO as a sophomore at 13ppg 2.6rpg and 2.4apg, as being on top the scouting report that you should give Haanif (11.8ppg, 3.4rpg, 2.2apg), Duane (11.6ppg, 2.6rpg. 2.5apg) and Luke (12.1ppg, 6.2rpg)  their dues. No there wasn't a Jimmy butler next to Henry but there was multiple "DJOs"

Chances are I'm overvaluing Lazar, he's my favorite player since I became a fan but I saw him through the eyes of a HS senior & freshman in college. However, I maintain that Henry did not have a good outside shot, made some really god awful plays and given how he did in the NBA/GLeague he likely had already hit his peak and wouldn't have progressed hugely as time went on and the talent caught up to him.


Lazar Hayward was miles better than Henry Ellenson.  I like Henry, but Lazar would have wiped the floor with him.