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Author Topic: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two  (Read 4890 times)

muwarrior69

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2019, 08:43:44 AM »
I think we should hire Herman as our next Coach. If we are not in the NCAAs every year and have not won a National Championship in say year 4 or even 5 we fire him.

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2019, 08:56:49 AM »
Pure Stockholm Syndrome.

 Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.

My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.

Assuming Wojo would get offered another big job and leave, how does a program that has had its last three head coaches (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) poached by other programs speak to the "high paying Big East job" with "incredible physical assets"?  That doesn't really speak to that narrative. 

Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2019, 09:00:09 AM »
Herman - I don't normally respond to folks who dump (Stockholm Syndrome) on me, but I do have a question pertaining the remainder of your post.  First, I understand your frustration, but have a leadership question.  Is Coach K a great leader?  The reason I ask, is in my years of working with great leaders, they always surrounded themselves with good leaders as well.  Personally, I like to hire people who have the potential to replace me.  The best leaders always seem to have guys that are great leaders or learn to be great leaders in a short period.  The fact Wojo lasted so long under a legend has me believing we got a good hire.  Just wondering about your thoughts on why Coach K would have stuck with him (and promote him) for so long if he is that bad?
Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.

The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .

Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the  Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level. 
All love affairs end.  Eventually the girl is gonna put curlers in her hair.
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MUfan12

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2019, 09:05:50 AM »
VA Tech flirted with Wojo. Wojo didn't return their attention.

You shure bout dat?

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2019, 09:10:05 AM »
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Loose Cannon

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2019, 09:11:55 AM »
You shure bout dat?

Are you sworn to secrecy?   
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is NOT ignorance, it's the Illusion of knowledge."....Stephen Hawking

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2019, 09:13:40 AM »
Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.

The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .

Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the  Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level.

I'm not saying that Wojo has it one way or any other but I 100% remember buzz saying things along the lines of "play angry" the bottom line is you've never like Wojo and it's ok to say that but using something like play angry comment as rationale, when we know that the legit timeout conversations aren't broadcast and we've seen it with buzz, is just poor evidence.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2019, 09:21:06 AM »
I'm not saying that Wojo has it one way or any other but I 100% remember buzz saying things along the lines of "play angry" the bottom line is you've never like Wojo and it's ok to say that but using something like play angry comment as rationale, when we know that the legit timeout conversations aren't broadcast and we've seen it with buzz, is just poor evidence.

No kidding. I've seen a version of "play angry" during inside the huddle at one time or another from every Big East coach and from a lot of top coaches, I can specifically think of a time I heard it from Izzo. It's a common coachism.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Its DJOver

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2019, 09:30:55 AM »
No kidding. I've seen a version of "play angry" during inside the huddle at one time or another from every Big East coach and from a lot of top coaches, I can specifically think of a time I heard it from Izzo. It's a common coachism.

If assaulting a player is a version of trying to get someone to play angry, Izzo definitely qualifies after last year.

Marcus92

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2019, 09:46:48 AM »
Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?

A. Correct.

Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?

A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.

Q. Uh-huh.

A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

MUfan12

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2019, 09:57:08 AM »
I think he and his staff have done a nice job developing guys, and the recruiting has been solid. But the game coaching is where he loses me. Consistently lacks a counter move to any adjustments the opposition makes, and I think his teams come out tight because he's wound too damn tight.

I hope he figures it out, but I remain very skeptical that he can do much better than what we've seen over the first five years.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 10:06:24 AM by MUfan12 »

war1980rior

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2019, 10:04:28 AM »
Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.

The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .

Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the  Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level.

I don't see any brown noser in him, personally.  I also have never been around him, so I might be a poor judge there.  I fail to see why Coach K would have kept a brown noser around.  They don't last long in the presence of demanding people.  That is probably my best point. 

As to playing angry?  They were pretty passive.  They needed a butt chewing, but we don't know what is said in the real huddles that don't have cameras attached.  We don't know what is said at halftime.  It's all hearsay. 

Love to know what your Je ne sais quoi is supposed to be.  Sounds mysterious and something we won't know about at hiring time.  I have to agree to disagree for now.  Hope it's you and not me that gets to eat crow down the road.  :)

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2019, 10:17:09 AM »
Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job.

I didn't realize you were so anti-Stan and anti-Killings. Wojo is the leader that hired them and is ultimately responsible for every player they recruited.

You can criticize coaching decisions, even to some extent player management, but every aspect of those things that owes the slightest bit of credit to the assistants is 100% on the guy that hired and continues to lead them.

Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2019, 10:59:29 AM »
I don't see any brown noser in him, personally.  I also have never been around him, so I might be a poor judge there.  I fail to see why Coach K would have kept a brown noser around.  They don't last long in the presence of demanding people.  That is probably my best point. 

As to playing angry?  They were pretty passive.  They needed a butt chewing, but we don't know what is said in the real huddles that don't have cameras attached.  We don't know what is said at halftime.  It's all hearsay. 

Love to know what your Je ne sais quoi is supposed to be.  Sounds mysterious and something we won't know about at hiring time.  I have to agree to disagree for now.  Hope it's you and not me that gets to eat crow down the road.  :)
As long as MU does well I will gladly eat crow.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2019, 11:00:20 AM »
Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?

A. Correct.

Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?

A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.

Q. Uh-huh.

A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!
Well done.
All love affairs end.  Eventually the girl is gonna put curlers in her hair.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2019, 11:02:14 AM »
I didn't realize you were so anti-Stan and anti-Killings. Wojo is the leader that hired them and is ultimately responsible for every player they recruited.

You can criticize coaching decisions, even to some extent player management, but every aspect of those things that owes the slightest bit of credit to the assistants is 100% on the guy that hired and continues to lead them.
As you know I love love love Stan. Would be delighted if he were our head coach .  I have consistently given Wojo credit for the work he has done on the recruiting front, and obviously Stan and Killings are part of that credit.
All love affairs end.  Eventually the girl is gonna put curlers in her hair.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2019, 11:37:03 AM »
I think he and his staff have done a nice job developing guys, and the recruiting has been solid. But the game coaching is where he loses me. Consistently lacks a counter move to any adjustments the opposition makes, and I think his teams come out tight because he's wound too damn tight.

I hope he figures it out, but I remain very skeptical that he can do much better than what we've seen over the first five years.

Honestly, I feel the reverse. I think he is overrated as a recruiter and underrated as a game coach. He started by making a big splash with Henry but the rest of that class was meh. 2016 was his best class for sure. Since then none of the classes have wowed me. 2017 all solid recruits but I don't see any potential all conference players there. 2018 was a class of 1 and that 1 was a current players younger brother. 2019 was a lot of swings and misses with one potential diamond in the rough. Symir's reclass bolsters the 2019 class so we'll see how it turns out. 2020 is really make or break for him recruiting wise IMHO.

His game coaching on the other hand has featured some of the best offenses we've seen at Marquette. His out of timeout plays have consistently been among the most efficient on both offense and defense. We saw Marquette come back from many second half deficits to win last season which speaks to his ability to adjust. Also, while we have seen major issues every year, we often see these issues get corrected in the offseason (worst to first defense in Big East for example).

Don't get me wrong, I don' think he's a horrible recruiter or a genius game coach...I just see his strengths and weaknesses differently than you
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

goldeneagle91114

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2019, 01:59:01 PM »
Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?

A. Correct.

Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?

A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.

Q. Uh-huh.

A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!

If you're looking for an example, look no further than the Hauser situation. Wojo has/had been around the  Hauser family probably more than any other family. he had TONS of time to get to know the type of person Joey was. At the end of the day, Wojo  evaluated Joey and asked him to join the MU team.

Wojo (the leader) then could not manage a bunch of strong personalities and ended up losing control of his team. Examples of this include the losing streak to end the season, fights in the locker room and on the plane home, Letters written to the coaching staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i bet coaches like Izzo, Williams, Bennett, and coach K do not have these things going on. Maybe one of them, but not all... at the same time.

lurch91

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2019, 02:15:36 PM »
I'm sure that all the different types of jobs have their own unique sets of challenges. I prefer head coaches from successful smaller programs because they know the pressures of the big seat that don't come with the assistant job no matter where you are. Sure, you scrap for recruits, but you also know how to manage your resources, rather than being a managed resource. You know how to work refs as opposed to just watching your boss take on that task. You have to be the lead dealing with administration, boosters, professors rather than someone who is delegated.

The 2 coaches that ran the worst programs at MU in the last 40 years came in as head coaches from smaller programs; Dukiet - who was in over his head from day one, and Deane - who certainly was willing to settle for mediocrity by thinking REACHING the NCAA tournament every other year was the acceptable.

The coaches that ran 2 of the best programs, were long time assistants at one university for an extended length of time; O'Neil and Crean.

dgies9156

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »
And frankly, after losing the Hausers, any NCAA bid will probably be enough, even without a NCAA win.

Say what?

I sure as heck hope not.

Class71

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2019, 03:37:50 PM »
Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.

You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.

Agree he is not close to the hot seat given our administration. One of the better young coaches?  I would say you are very kind.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2019, 04:23:05 PM »
Agree he is not close to the hot seat given our administration. One of the better young coaches?  I would say you are very kind.

He was on the list of nominees for coach of the year last year.  And Marcus92 (IIRC) did some analysis that showed Wojos winning % is one of the best for coaches with 5 years experience or less. I think only Chris Beard was better
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

tower912

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2019, 04:40:46 PM »
If he had the exact same record at a mid major, folks here would want MU to hire him.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2019, 04:43:42 PM »
If you're looking for an example, look no further than the Hauser situation. Wojo has/had been around the  Hauser family probably more than any other family. he had TONS of time to get to know the type of person Joey was. At the end of the day, Wojo  evaluated Joey and asked him to join the MU team.

Wojo (the leader) then could not manage a bunch of strong personalities and ended up losing control of his team. Examples of this include the losing streak to end the season, fights in the locker room and on the plane home, Letters written to the coaching staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i bet coaches like Izzo, Williams, Bennett, and coach K do not have these things going on. Maybe one of them, but not all... at the same time.

This is very fair criticism. It’s something he hopefully learns from.

jesmu84

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2019, 04:45:30 PM »
Easy to criticize with platitudes and cliches. When asked for evidence, most people can't show their work.

Don't like the guy? Fine. That's totally acceptable.

But to make a bunch of demeaning statements because of your biased stance is obnoxious, at best.