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Author Topic: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two  (Read 4988 times)

WhiteTrash

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2019, 05:51:41 PM »
So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
 If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for  Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.

Cheeks

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2019, 06:17:43 PM »
I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for  Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.

But isn’t it true at the college and pro level in football that the assistant coach of offense or defense (the coordinator) is often fired and the head coach survives just fine.
"To win a national championship or go deep into the tournament, it's sometimes a crapshoot. You've got to be good enough, you've got to be lucky, you've got to be a lot of things."
Michigan State Head Coach Tom Izzo

Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2019, 06:25:43 PM »
But isn’t it true at the college and pro level in football that the assistant coach of offense or defense (the coordinator) is often fired and the head coach survives just fine.
Yes they tend to get  thrown under the bus first .
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2019, 06:44:39 PM »
So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
 If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.

I think being an assistant at Duke is a lay up compared to being one at Cleveland St or Fordham. Ask 500 D1 assistant coaches and I'd guess 500 would agree.

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2019, 06:56:25 PM »
My consistent position is the team is going to be very strong this year. Better team chemistry and more athletic. Looking forward to great things from this group of kids.

I agree with this analysis.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2019, 07:01:08 PM »
I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for  Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.


The track record of most tracks to get high major head coaching gigs isn't great.  Most of them are eventually fired.  The reason you see more successful high major coaches who were originally coaches elsewhere is because the vast majority of high major coaches took that route versus the high major assistant route.

Research Report

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2019, 07:04:49 PM »
So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
 If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.

Everything Coach K does at Duke is done under immense scrutiny and expectations.  The same just isn’t true for his assistants, and that goes for all assistants at all college basketball programs.  The only time you hear about college assistants is when the big name head coach throws them under the bus for recruiting violations.

Also, at Duke, they can cherry pick the top 25 players every year.  UK, Kansas, Arizona, etc. only have so many open scholarships to give.  If Duke misses on one top kid, they can just get another.  No big whoop.  I’d say it’s way harder to recruit at a program on Marquette’s level where you’re competing with 100 other schools for those top 30-100 kids.  And programs lower than that?  You’re in a dog fight for whatever’s left over.

Being an assistant at Duke is candy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 07:14:07 PM by Research Report »

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2019, 07:54:56 PM »
I'm sure that all the different types of jobs have their own unique sets of challenges. I prefer head coaches from successful smaller programs because they know the pressures of the big seat that don't come with the assistant job no matter where you are. Sure, you scrap for recruits, but you also know how to manage your resources, rather than being a managed resource. You know how to work refs as opposed to just watching your boss take on that task. You have to be the lead dealing with administration, boosters, professors rather than someone who is delegated.

In addition, most of the successful head coaches at the mid-major level also have experience as assistants at various levels. Many will have been high-major assistants like Wojo, virtually all will have been an assistant somewhere.

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The Lens

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2019, 08:57:39 PM »
Mediocre D from Wojo, hey?

https://twitter.com/mucoachjohnson/status/1151809808292618240?s=21

Pretty sure that's Barack Obama's nephew.  Despite Craig Robinson taking a post in NY with the Knicks, the family has stayed back in MKE.
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tower912

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2019, 08:59:35 PM »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

The Lens

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2019, 09:00:40 PM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.
Marquette, we always win the post-game.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2019, 09:06:00 PM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.


Or the next can't miss mid major coach.

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2019, 09:11:00 PM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.

I agree. If Wojo had done the same rebuild at Temple, Vandy, or Richmond as he did here, he'd be a great target. Instead, he cut his teeth here so we just have to hope the next five are better than the last five & he continues to grow as a coach.

He'll still be criticized when it's warranted, and probably sometimes when it isn't, but just keep the trend line pointed up.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2019, 09:19:29 PM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.

Yes sir.   Need to stick it out more and hope that he has success on the recruiting trail so that he will jot get frustrated and leave after his next good year.

Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2019, 09:27:34 PM »
Lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on here.
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Cheeks

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2019, 09:41:25 PM »
I agree. If Wojo had done the same rebuild at Temple, Vandy, or Richmond as he did here, he'd be a great target. Instead, he cut his teeth here so we just have to hope the next five are better than the last five & he continues to grow as a coach.

He'll still be criticized when it's warranted, and probably sometimes when it isn't, but just keep the trend line pointed up.

Yup, which is why I don’t get the cut him loose argument especially when it is almost certain we are going to get another assistant.
"To win a national championship or go deep into the tournament, it's sometimes a crapshoot. You've got to be good enough, you've got to be lucky, you've got to be a lot of things."
Michigan State Head Coach Tom Izzo

The Lens

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2019, 09:43:30 PM »
Lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on here.

Tell me this admin will back up the Brinks truck for a successful Power 5 coach and I'm all in on moving on.  Otherwise, I'm just not ready to watch the last 5 years again for the next 5 years. 
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NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2019, 02:33:01 AM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.

This is a really clear voice of reason. I will take it a step further, which a select few will see as unreasonable...we were all infinitesimally close to (and an insurrection short of) being joyfully satisfied with the progress of Wojo and his WarriorEagles. Even the Zen-Master himself, Phil Jackson, would have had trouble righting that chemistry ship. Your post, along with Herman’s potion motion (chemistry/athleticism) should set the tone for our “lens” of viewing this season.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

The Hamberdler

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2019, 06:04:04 AM »
I think being an assistant at Duke is a lay up compared to being one at Cleveland St or Fordham. Ask 500 D1 assistant coaches and I'd guess 500 would agree.

Might be an easier job when Fordham gets that BE invite, amiright?!

rocket surgeon

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2019, 07:09:39 AM »
There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop.  It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years.  He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig.  I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year.  I'm sick of training wheels.

  well stated lens man.  compared to what's out there right now, keeping wojo for another year...or 2 if he shows some definitive progress is our best position.  definitive progress is not only in the W/L however-there needs to be that gut feeling thing as well.  i'm not saying if we go .500 and feel a little fuzzy that wojo is our man, but when we see it, we will know it. 

the one guy i've had on my radar though and have mentioned in the past-ben mccollum is going to be a superstar somewhere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_McCollum

war1980rior

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2019, 07:57:39 AM »
Yup, which is why I don’t get the cut him loose argument especially when it is almost certain we are going to get another assistant.

Cheeks/Brew/Lens all have the same solid point.  I think sticking with Wojo is the best option for MU long term.  Even down years won't make us a worse place to be for any future coach.  We're a Big East team which is great competition to tout when you are recruiting.  Wojo is still a big name.  The facilities are awesome.  Very solid university.

The downside of losing Wojo is if he indeed gets better, it confirms us as a stepping stone for the next 15 years.  I would rather he stay here and make his mark as the next Al, and not go someplace else to be the next big name.  There is a lot here for him from a reputation standpoint, by staying at Marquette.  Great basketball city, great program on the upswing, and he's starting to settle in.  Once he starts pulling in the bigger recruits, we become a serious option for those looking at KU, UK and UNC. 

I do think his experience at Duke was significantly different in that recruiting, as stated several times, is easier at Duke.  The top 25 players all consider Duke.  It's got it's own exit ramp into the NBA.  Our players earn it the old fashioned way for the most part.  They have to earn it.  He's also not coaching kids with god given talent.  They're slightly less than that and have to work for it, and he has to find the ones who are almost there, and have the urgency and ability to learn.  That said, he wasn't what I'd call talented as a player, just had a ton of drive an heart (I competitively hated him as a player).  In all my years of going from job to job, it takes most people a solid 2 years to figure it out, and at least another two to get good at it.  Effort will get you through the first couple years.

These next three years will be telling.  I personally don't want to see MU hire a rising assistant, only to watch them go to a perceived better program (love him or not, Crean).  I seriously don't see MU spending millions up front for a big name who might be looking for a great place to retire from.  I like riding this one until it's clearly wrong.  We're very far from that.

Our current team is very different and will be a serious coaching challenge.  I think we're a lot faster, and just might be more physical if Ed moves the 4 successfully.  It should be a fun year, but some losses.  I'm hoping for a six bid minimum, 4 would be stellar.

One thing I liked about Wojo the day he showed up.  He could have left Duke anytime for a big school 5 years before.  He waited for a quality academic institution that was basketball first.  Someplace with a tradition.  He's comfortable with that.  He was never hiding under Coach K.  That loyalty might have gotten him hired as an assistant, but performance is what promoted him to Coach K's number one guy.

He's definitely a quality leader.  My belief is a lot of us will look back at the negative comments WE said, and regret them.

Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2019, 08:10:47 AM »
Cheeks/Brew/Lens all have the same solid point.  I think sticking with Wojo is the best option for MU long term.  Even down years won't make us a worse place to be for any future coach.  We're a Big East team which is great competition to tout when you are recruiting.  Wojo is still a big name.  The facilities are awesome.  Very solid university.

The downside of losing Wojo is if he indeed gets better, it confirms us as a stepping stone for the next 15 years.  I would rather he stay here and make his mark as the next Al, and not go someplace else to be the next big name.  There is a lot here for him from a reputation standpoint, by staying at Marquette.  Great basketball city, great program on the upswing, and he's starting to settle in.  Once he starts pulling in the bigger recruits, we become a serious option for those looking at KU, UK and UNC. 

I do think his experience at Duke was significantly different in that recruiting, as stated several times, is easier at Duke.  The top 25 players all consider Duke.  It's got it's own exit ramp into the NBA.  Our players earn it the old fashioned way for the most part.  They have to earn it.  He's also not coaching kids with god given talent.  They're slightly less than that and have to work for it, and he has to find the ones who are almost there, and have the urgency and ability to learn.  That said, he wasn't what I'd call talented as a player, just had a ton of drive an heart (I competitively hated him as a player).  In all my years of going from job to job, it takes most people a solid 2 years to figure it out, and at least another two to get good at it.  Effort will get you through the first couple years.

These next three years will be telling.  I personally don't want to see MU hire a rising assistant, only to watch them go to a perceived better program (love him or not, Crean).  I seriously don't see MU spending millions up front for a big name who might be looking for a great place to retire from.  I like riding this one until it's clearly wrong.  We're very far from that.

Our current team is very different and will be a serious coaching challenge.  I think we're a lot faster, and just might be more physical if Ed moves the 4 successfully.  It should be a fun year, but some losses.  I'm hoping for a six bid minimum, 4 would be stellar.

One thing I liked about Wojo the day he showed up.  He could have left Duke anytime for a big school 5 years before.  He waited for a quality academic institution that was basketball first.  Someplace with a tradition.  He's comfortable with that.  He was never hiding under Coach K.  That loyalty might have gotten him hired as an assistant, but performance is what promoted him to Coach K's number one guy.

He's definitely a quality leader.  My belief is a lot of us will look back at the negative comments WE said, and regret them.
Pure Stockholm Syndrome.

 Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.

My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.
All love affairs end.  Eventually the girl is gonna put curlers in her hair.
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war1980rior

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2019, 08:19:23 AM »
Pure Stockholm Syndrome.

 Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.

My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.

Herman - I don't normally respond to folks who dump (Stockholm Syndrome) on me, but I do have a question pertaining the remainder of your post.  First, I understand your frustration, but have a leadership question.  Is Coach K a great leader?  The reason I ask, is in my years of working with great leaders, they always surrounded themselves with good leaders as well.  Personally, I like to hire people who have the potential to replace me.  The best leaders always seem to have guys that are great leaders or learn to be great leaders in a short period.  The fact Wojo lasted so long under a legend has me believing we got a good hire.  Just wondering about your thoughts on why Coach K would have stuck with him (and promote him) for so long if he is that bad?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 08:34:14 AM by war1980rior »

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2019, 08:29:21 AM »
Pure Stockholm Syndrome.

 Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.

My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.

VA Tech flirted with Wojo. Wojo didn't return their attention.

Who makes up the long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job? Cause last time there was only one on the list....and he was running screaming from his current job.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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