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Author Topic: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two  (Read 6833 times)

Herman Cain

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Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« on: July 18, 2019, 11:33:14 AM »
I thought the thread started by 1SE had some good points worth discussing . I was not able to get any comments prior to the lock so starting thread Part Two.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58899.msg1144674#msg1144674

I agree with the general proposition being made that Wojo was handed the MU job based on his Duke  Lineage. At the time, this all came down Lovell was literally on week one of his job. So just like the old business saying "You can never go wrong with IBM" it was perceived to be the safe choice to take Wojo over Cuonzo or Howland or a mid major coach.

The first  thing I have given Wojo consistent credit for is that he has embraced the history and alumni of Marquette Basketball . His whole focus is MU and not making the place Duke North.

The second thing I have given Wojo and Staff consistent credit for is working hard on the recruiting trail , high school, transfer, grad transfer and he has been able to consistently come up with 3 and 4 star players that allow the program to compete at the Big East Level.

So in general Wojo has done nothing to hurt MU and the considerable investment that has been made in basketball.

On the other hand, Wojo has not exhibited the true leadership skills to motivate kids in way that leads to the kind of success MU requires given its investment. I believe this performance is a function of MU being his first head coaching job and learning on the job.

MU is at a place where it will not improve to the next level of winning without better talent, the problem is to get the talent the program needs to demonstrate that it can win at that higher level. The classic chicken and egg scenario. This past year was a huge opportunity wasted with the collapse down the stretch. Wojo is getting a mulligan and another shot it this year, as the team is athletic and has good chemistry.

The Big East is only going to get tougher  with  the addition of U Conn .  MU needs to firmly establish itself under Wojo as a top 3 in the league program. If Wojo cannot do that, it is time to move on.
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BCHoopster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2019, 11:44:50 AM »
Wojo will have to coach differently this year with an athletic small team vs. having the Hauser, tall slow but good shooters.  Backcourt is the strength, see if figures it out.  Buzz did.

Boozemon Barro

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2019, 11:54:23 AM »
We should only hire NAIA coaches from the school of hard knocks.

jesmu84

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2019, 12:07:07 PM »
Wojo will have to coach differently this year with an athletic small team vs. having the Hauser, tall slow but good shooters.  Backcourt is the strength, see if figures it out.  Buzz did.

We have a small team this year?

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »
No.   But there will be more 3 guard sets.     Sacar will move from 2g to SF.    Bailey, Cain will play the 4 in small sets, Morrow in big sets.     Instead of matching 6'8 Hausers, we will have an abundance of 6'3 guards. 
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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2019, 12:25:49 PM »

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2019, 01:03:40 PM »
A few thoughts, first based on the OP of the first thread:

Yes, Wojo got his first head coaching job at a high major thanks to his work at Duke. Just like Tommy Amaker at Seton Hall, Johnny Dawkins at Stanford, and Chris Collins at Northwestern. Duke assistants generally go to high majors.

I agree about mid-major coaches having a leg up on career assistants. Yes, there are success stories like Roy and Izzo, but most of the big names are guys that proved they could outperform their peers at lower levels before getting a shot at the big time. I prefer that route. Coaches like Self, Miller, and Bennett won at lower tier jobs before getting a shot to compete at top programs and demonstrated an ability to lead a program. That means they already had to recruit, manage boosters, manage egos, work refs, and all the other things associated with being a head coach. There's less of a learning curve for those guys than there is for a career assistant who may have been told about the rigors of the big chair but never actually sat in it.

All that said, the general consensus seems to be that people like the players on the roster. Not just Markus, but guys like Theo, Elliott, Koby, Bailey, and Sacar have all shown flashes of potential and/or demonstrable growth in their time here. Wojo gets credit for that. He has been successful recruiting at the high school level, traditional transfers, and grad transfers. He has done a good job of getting assistants who can recruit quality players and quality people. And he's done so while maintaining the image of a clean program after a few blemishes under Buzz.

I hope he's successful in the coming seasons. If he's not, I hope we look to current head coaches rather than hoping again for the next Roy Williams because success from the former seems like a stronger strategy than success from the latter.

1SE

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 01:36:32 PM »
Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.

I guess I just  have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty  rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
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RJax55

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2019, 01:42:28 PM »
A few thoughts, first based on the OP of the first thread:

Yes, Wojo got his first head coaching job at a high major thanks to his work at Duke. Just like Tommy Amaker at Seton Hall, Johnny Dawkins at Stanford, and Chris Collins at Northwestern. Duke assistants generally go to high majors.

I agree about mid-major coaches having a leg up on career assistants. Yes, there are success stories like Roy and Izzo, but most of the big names are guys that proved they could outperform their peers at lower levels before getting a shot at the big time. I prefer that route. Coaches like Self, Miller, and Bennett won at lower tier jobs before getting a shot to compete at top programs and demonstrated an ability to lead a program. That means they already had to recruit, manage boosters, manage egos, work refs, and all the other things associated with being a head coach. There's less of a learning curve for those guys than there is for a career assistant who may have been told about the rigors of the big chair but never actually sat in it.

All that said, the general consensus seems to be that people like the players on the roster. Not just Markus, but guys like Theo, Elliott, Koby, Bailey, and Sacar have all shown flashes of potential and/or demonstrable growth in their time here. Wojo gets credit for that. He has been successful recruiting at the high school level, traditional transfers, and grad transfers. He has done a good job of getting assistants who can recruit quality players and quality people. And he's done so while maintaining the image of a clean program after a few blemishes under Buzz.

I hope he's successful in the coming seasons. If he's not, I hope we look to current head coaches rather than hoping again for the next Roy Williams because success from the former seems like a stronger strategy than success from the latter.

I do think it would have been to Wojo's benefit to have had another assistant job or jobs outside of Duke prior to getting the MU post. Just the first-hand experience of seeing another program, culture and coach would have been beneficial, IMO.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2019, 01:50:39 PM »
Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?

Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.

You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 01:54:42 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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real chili 83

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2019, 02:07:10 PM »
Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.

You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.

Funny, I recently heard someone say that too, perhaps last week. 😜

Marquette just isn’t going to hire Wardle. They are looking for long term success, done the right way.

Buzz was a decent bench coach, and pulled multiple rabbits out of his JUCO hat, but that’s not sustainable. There’s a reason he bailed on Marquette and on Ginny Tech.

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2019, 02:08:31 PM »
Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.

I guess I just  have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty  rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?

I agree with TAMU that Wardle would still be here. Two years of rebuild followed by NCAA/NIT/NCAA with the best season the most recent would keep almost anyone in their job.

I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.

1SE

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2019, 02:09:18 PM »
Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.

You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.

Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.

And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato
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wadesworld

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2019, 02:31:56 PM »
Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.

And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato

Except that losing 6 of 7 was part of getting a 5 seed.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2019, 02:33:02 PM »
Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.

And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato

Yes,  Wardle would still have been here after year 4.

And hundreds of coaches have lost 6 of 7 in a season and gotten upset badly in the NCAA tournament and kept their jobs. I'd imagine there's plenty who have done both and kept their jobs. Zero have been fired after earning a 5 seed or better. All that means is that the first half of the season was that impressive.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Lazar's Headband

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2019, 02:34:26 PM »
Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.

And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed, which had the #2 pick in the NBA draft. Potayto potaato

FIFY

Also, that 12 seed lost a road game to Auburn by only 5.  The same Auburn team that went to the Final Four and barely lost to the national champion.

So it's all spin to fit whatever narrative someone wants to drive.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2019, 02:53:34 PM »
Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.

I guess I just  have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty  rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?

How about if you respect the guy because of how hard he works, his results and how he represents the university. How he got there isn’t relevant. 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2019, 02:55:06 PM »
Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.


Absolutely. 100%, no doubt he would have still been here.
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Goose

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2019, 03:05:08 PM »
I cannot believe that Brian Wardle's name is mentioned in a MU HC thread. Seriously, I hope no one wants him to be our coach or even pretend he is our coach.

Pakuni

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2019, 03:12:44 PM »
Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.

I guess I just  have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty  rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?

So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
 If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:14:20 PM by Pakuni »

mileskishnish72

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2019, 03:43:56 PM »


I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.
[/quote]

Hope you're right, Brew, but I think that expecting a lot.

We R Final Four

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2019, 04:15:29 PM »
I agree with TAMU that Wardle would still be here. Two years of rebuild followed by NCAA/NIT/NCAA with the best season the most recent would keep almost anyone in their job.

I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.
4 or better?  Wow--I hope you're right.
I fear that this upcoming season and continued scrutiny of Wojo will be solely linked to winning one NCAA game--right or wrong.  That game in March has been already been mentioned numerous times on scoop in June and July.
The weight of winning that potential game is substantial.

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2019, 04:38:49 PM »
As much as I'm critical of some of Wojo's decisions, I think the general national consensus on our 2019-20 team is underrating this team. I saw a recent comparison to last year's Purdue team and I think that's a very good one. Howard plays the Carsen Edwards role and while we lost a lot (as did Purdue last year) we are experienced and might be even deeper. And frankly, after losing the Hausers, any NCAA bid will probably be enough, even without a NCAA win. Not because of Wojo's Duke connections or reputation but because that will be 3/4 years in the NCAAs and 4 straight years with postseason play. Even a small step back would be allowed. We won't like it, but the administration will accept it.

tower912

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2019, 04:48:42 PM »
The difference with the Hausers leaving is the 'knowns.'  With them, the whole team was known.  The predicted rotations were so deep that the question was who was going to cede their minutes to KM.  Who was going to leave due to lack of projected minutes?   Cain and Anim?   
  Then 65 minutes walked out the door.  And everyone else stayed.   And now there are some 'unknowns'.    But there is still talent and potential.   This is a long way of saying that I agree with bc77 that the 19-20 team may be currently undervalued.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo, Mediocrity and Peer Out Performance - Part Two
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2019, 04:58:18 PM »
The difference with the Hausers leaving is the 'knowns.'  With them, the whole team was known.  The predicted rotations were so deep that the question was who was going to cede their minutes to KM.  Who was going to leave due to lack of projected minutes?   Cain and Anim?   
  Then 65 minutes walked out the door.  And everyone else stayed.   And now there are some 'unknowns'.    But there is still talent and potential.   This is a long way of saying that I agree with bc77 that the 19-20 team may be currently undervalued.
My consistent position is the team is going to be very strong this year. Better team chemistry and more athletic. Looking forward to great things from this group of kids.
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