The Boomers Ruined Everything

[Hards Alumni]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/boomers-are-blame-aging-america/592336/

Hoping this isn't to political... though I expect it to be quite controversial

[Archies Bat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATTMB4gH3sU

[Lennys Tap]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/boomers-are-blame-aging-america/592336/

Hoping this isn't to political... though I expect it to be quite controversial

This boomer agrees with much of the article - thanks for posting.

[jesmu84]

Think boomers will go for this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/06/sanders-omar-jayapal-cancel-student-debt-make-college-free/592462/

[MU82]

Yes, it is quite political.

Yes, it is fairly interesting.

Yes, I agree with some of it.

No, I don't agree with all of it.

Don't want to get hit on noggin with the Banhammer, so I'll leave it at that.

[Cheeks]

Think boomers will go for this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/06/sanders-omar-jayapal-cancel-student-debt-make-college-free/592462/

I had to pay more than $25k off and this was 20+ years ago, took more than a decade to do so....surely I will get my money back in this “deal”, right?  I’m curious why some get it forgiven, while others went poor and worked their ass off to pay it back and it’s tough cookies.

[MU82]

I had to pay more than $25k off and this was 20+ years ago, took more than a decade to do so....surely I will get my money back in this “deal”, right?  I’m curious why some get it forgiven, while others went poor and worked their ass off to pay it back and it’s tough cookies.

Politics.

IBTL.

[jesmu84]

I had to pay more than $25k off and this was 20+ years ago, took more than a decade to do so....surely I will get my money back in this “deal”, right?  I’m curious why some get it forgiven, while others went poor and worked their ass off to pay it back and it’s tough cookies.

More broad question...

If there were a law/legislation being proposed that you don't directly benefit from, but would have a positive effect overall on the country, would you support it?

[Lennys Tap]

I had to pay more than $25k off and this was 20+ years ago, took more than a decade to do so....surely I will get my money back in this “deal”, right?  I’m curious why some get it forgiven, while others went poor and worked their ass off to pay it back and it’s tough cookies.

When I think of how unfair the world has been (and continues to be) to you I want to weep. I pray you can hang in there, but realize that even Job had limits on how much he could bear.

[Jockey]

When I think of how unfair the world has been (and continues to be) to you I want to weep. I pray you can hang in there, but realize that even Job had limits on how much he could bear.

Well done. Really illustrates the difference between me and chico. My first thought was that more kids will get to go to college to better their lives; chico's first thought was "it's not fair to me.

But then, I've had a great life. Not a single complaint (other than reading some of the posts on Scoop).

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

More broad question...

If there were a law/legislation being proposed that you don't directly benefit from, but would have a positive effect overall on the country, would you support it?

"I got mine"

[Hards Alumni]

"I got mine"

The secret feelings of most boomers.

[mu03eng]

Well done. Really illustrates the difference between me and chico. My first thought was that more kids will get to go to college to better their lives; chico's first thought was "it's not fair to me.

But then, I've had a great life. Not a single complaint (other than reading some of the posts on Scoop).

But should more kids go to college? And by college I mean a 4 year college that requires liberal arts as well as your core degree coursework.

Free college and debt forgiveness is largely a bailout to the middle class, not saying that's bad but not sure if it's a core problem. I question if the larger problem isn't a misalignment between fields of study and economic opportunities.

[JWags85]

But should more kids go to college? And by college I mean a 4 year college that requires liberal arts as well as your core degree coursework.

Free college and debt forgiveness is largely a bailout to the middle class, not saying that's bad but not sure if it's a core problem. I question if the larger problem isn't a misalignment between fields of study and economic opportunities.

I graduated in 2008.  I was a Behavioral Psychology major with a Finance minor trying to get into Finance.  From a very good school with a great name and alumni base in Chicago (where I was aiming).  Beyond the terribleness of the job market at the time, at the single interview in the industry I got, plus talking to other people in the coming years at networking events, I got the message that my resume was likely trashed without much of a thought cause why touch "soft majors" when they could focus on STEM kids or Finance/Econ for their staffing needs.  In the past 10 years, its only gotten more competitive.  And STILL, the mentality isn't anywhere close to where it needs to be.  50 years of "just go to college, jobs will come" takes an awfully long time to program out.  My best friend growing up had a father who ran IT at a major blood bank...he was an aviation major who decided he didn't want to fly anymore at 24.  My steady caddy client was a Director at Baird who was a philosophy major.  A heavy hitter at Kohls we babysat for was a history major who went into merchandising after graduation.  None of them from top 50 schools.  They all got their first good jobs cause they were college grads with decent resumes.  That template doesn't work anymore, it is what it is.
 
I have grad school loans, they suck, so its not like I'm completely detached from the struggle of student loan debt related to income.  However, I realize the bigger problem and also have trouble pitying some of the sob stories of people with mounds of debt but they have a liberal arts degree from a decent, but not great school.  I realize its 18 year old kids, they shouldn't be expected to have their life planned out.  But surely you need to realize that picking a major cause its fun or one course "spoke to you" isn't a viable plan when you're footing $50K+ yourself.  Career planning/counseling is more important than ever.  You don't need a set plan and a rigid path, but you do need to make some pertinent choices so you have a more compelling "choose your own adventure" scenario.

My personal favorite is the fairly common prototype focus of these debt articles who have a major that they readily acknowledge would likely need grad school to get them onto the career path they desired.  But then they decided towards the end of college they didn't want further school, didn't change majors or anything, and just decided to figure it out post graduation.  Then they are inevitable angry at the education system, the job market, and student loans.

Education is completely off the rails, but my god there needs to be some accountability too.  I sure as hell would have changed what I did at 18/19, but I feel like a lot of people wouldn't.

[vogue65]

The fix is in, always has been.
Most of the boomers I know are supporting their grandchildren or trying to stay alive.
The best way to get rich is to earn it the old fashioned way, inherit it.
It takes first generation college kids years to figure out the system, it is much easier if you start with a leg up.
So when the fix is in for the privileged it's fair, the way of the world, the market functioning as advertised.
But when the underprivileged try and catch a brake its unfair, evil, unprincipled.  Balderdash.

[StillAWarrior]

Free college and debt forgiveness is largely a bailout to the middle class...

It would be an extraordinary bailout of the middle class - at least as currently envisioned. I really don’t feel college graduates are the people in this country most in need of a bailout. But it is a big voting block.

[vogue65]

It would be an extraordinary bailout of the middle class - at least as currently envisioned. I really don’t feel college graduates are the people in this country most in need of a bailout. But it is a big voting block.

Pitty, let's just bailout the big banks, defense contractors, Wall Street, AIG, and Palm Beach golfers.

[StillAWarrior]

Pitty, let's just bailout the big banks, defense contractors, Wall Street, AIG, and Palm Beach golfers.

I don’t recall suggesting that. None of the above is an acceptable solution. Look, I’d be more than happy to have someone pay my kids’ college loans. Just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[jesmu84]

Pitty, let's just bailout the big banks, defense contractors, Wall Street, AIG, and Palm Beach golfers.

Everyone goes along with bank bailouts, automaker bailouts, corporate tax cuts, etc.

But when someone suggests a leg up for middle america, people lose their minds.

Socialism for the rich and rugged free enterprise capitalism for the poor.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well done. Really illustrates the difference between me and chico. My first thought was that more kids will get to go to college to better their lives; chico's first thought was "it's not fair to me.

Yup, exactly.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

The current accounting plug at DOD is four times as large as the cost of that debt forgiveness. If we want to talk about accountability.

[StillAWarrior]

Everyone goes along with bank bailouts, automaker bailouts, corporate tax cuts, etc.

But when someone suggests a leg up for middle america, people lose their minds.

Most of the college loan bailout proposals I’ve seen would pay people making up to $100k a year. If you think recent grads making $90k (or anywhere near that) need a bailout, I guess we just disagree.

[StillAWarrior]

So when the fix is in for the privileged it's fair, the way of the world, the market functioning as advertised.
But when the underprivileged try and catch a brake its unfair, evil, unprincipled.  Balderdash.

The issue is that college graduates, for the most part, are privileged.

[jesmu84]

Most of the college loan bailout proposals I’ve seen would pay people making up to $100k a year. If you think recent grads making $90k (or anywhere near that) need a bailout, I guess we just disagree.

How many recent undergrads (define "recent") are making 90k?

[StillAWarrior]

How many recent undergrads (define "recent") are making 90k?

Probably very few. But why include them?  Same with $70k. Or $50k. I would potentially support a college tuition repayment program. But the ones I’m seeing proposed are massive middle class - upper middle class, really - bailouts.

[Herman Cain]

Think boomers will go for this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/06/sanders-omar-jayapal-cancel-student-debt-make-college-free/592462/

So question for you. If a person was not rich but saved and paid for tuition etc through work or whatever means they had, should they also get reimbursed.

[real chili 83]

Pitty, let's just bailout the big banks, defense contractors, Wall Street, AIG, and Palm Beach golfers.

You must be new around here

in before the lock

ND sucks

[JWags85]

Probably very few. But why include them?  Same with $70k. Or $50k. I would potentially support a college tuition repayment program. But the ones I’m seeing proposed are massive middle class - upper middle class, really - bailouts.

And will this have a geographic component? Cause you’re potentially punishing anyone pursuing careers in high COL areas. You love to NYC and get paid 80-90K for a job. You’re not doing appreciably better than your peer making 60K in Indianapolis, but they will get forgiven and you’ll get excluded due to being too “successful”?

Assistance programs, tax credits/rebates, loan depreciations over time...I can see arguments for those scenarios. Blanket forgiveness for those within certain income guidelines seems disastrous

[GB Warrior]

Most of the college loan bailout proposals I’ve seen would pay people making up to $100k a year. If you think recent grads making $90k (or anywhere near that) need a bailout, I guess we just disagree.

To me, that seems a tad excessive, but not as egregious as you might think. I guess the better measure to me would be total earnings since graduation. Someone a 5-10 years out making 100k is not the same as a software engineer pulling that straight out. The former might have been scraping by quite a bit more.  Depending on how much debt they were in, they may have been deferring putting money into retirement, into savings, and into the housing market. They probably deferred having kids.

Consider that a Marquette education costs about 50k a year, sans scholarships. The increase to tuition costs have far outpaced wage growth. Wages need to be viewed in that context. The tax laws of 1986 that view tuition as a deduction rather than an exemption are regressive and punitive in that light; the tax update last year sure as sh!t didn't fix it. You can lose credits and other tax benefits because AGI gives no consideration for how many hundreds a month you're paying in loans. Fixing that alone would give a true representation of someone's standard of living.

Now, for housing - I've long said that there's going to be a housing bubble when the boomers want to move into assisted living facilities and there are no millenials or Gen Zs to buy them. I'm a home owner in my late 20s due to a real estate flip that paid off, but I'm already cautiously nervous of what the market will look like in a decade plus if we move to make sure our kids go to a great high school. So I don't feel bad about boomers that will be in the same boat since they've willfully ensured that our generation gets none of the entitlements they benefited from. It's funny, though - none of them seem to think they got any help from the system whatsoever

In summary, I guess my point is this. A smart millennial would creative an innovative home health company to allow the boomers to stay in their homes and to price gouge the the everliving sh!t out of them just like they have us.

[jesmu84]

So question for you. If a person was not rich but saved and paid for tuition etc through work or whatever means they had, should they also get reimbursed.

Are you talking about someone who has already completed school, someone currently in school, or someone who will go in the future?

[Herman Cain]

I graduated in 2008.  I was a Behavioral Psychology major with a Finance minor trying to get into Finance.  From a very good school with a great name and alumni base in Chicago (where I was aiming).  Beyond the terribleness of the job market at the time, at the single interview in the industry I got, plus talking to other people in the coming years at networking events, I got the message that my resume was likely trashed without much of a thought cause why touch "soft majors" when they could focus on STEM kids or Finance/Econ for their staffing needs.  In the past 10 years, its only gotten more competitive.  And STILL, the mentality isn't anywhere close to where it needs to be.  50 years of "just go to college, jobs will come" takes an awfully long time to program out.  My best friend growing up had a father who ran IT at a major blood bank...he was an aviation major who decided he didn't want to fly anymore at 24.  My steady caddy client was a Director at Baird who was a philosophy major.  A heavy hitter at Kohls we babysat for was a history major who went into merchandising after graduation.  None of them from top 50 schools.  They all got their first good jobs cause they were college grads with decent resumes.  That template doesn't work anymore, it is what it is.
 
I have grad school loans, they suck, so its not like I'm completely detached from the struggle of student loan debt related to income.  However, I realize the bigger problem and also have trouble pitying some of the sob stories of people with mounds of debt but they have a liberal arts degree from a decent, but not great school.  I realize its 18 year old kids, they shouldn't be expected to have their life planned out.  But surely you need to realize that picking a major cause its fun or one course "spoke to you" isn't a viable plan when you're footing $50K+ yourself.  Career planning/counseling is more important than ever.  You don't need a set plan and a rigid path, but you do need to make some pertinent choices so you have a more compelling "choose your own adventure" scenario.

My personal favorite is the fairly common prototype focus of these debt articles who have a major that they readily acknowledge would likely need grad school to get them onto the career path they desired.  But then they decided towards the end of college they didn't want further school, didn't change majors or anything, and just decided to figure it out post graduation.  Then they are inevitable angry at the education system, the job market, and student loans.

Education is completely off the rails, but my god there needs to be some accountability too.  I sure as hell would have changed what I did at 18/19, but I feel like a lot of people wouldn't.

The job market is hotter than ever right now. Anyone who can communicate orally and in writing and has a little energy can get a decent job.  We have 6 figure jobs in our company that are wide open for the taking. We would love hard working , non entitled college grads to show up and we can give them great careers too. Finally, our ideal candidate is from a double directional state school. So no need for fancy resume.

[Herman Cain]

Are you talking about someone who has already completed school, someone currently in school, or someone who will go in the future?

Someone who completed school.

[jesmu84]

Someone who completed school.

No, they won't get reimbursed. That's not what this legislation is for.

When a new law is passed in this country, do we go back and undo everything that was before it?

When we reduce jail time for a specific criminal offense, do we give back those free years to those that spent time in jail? Etc.

[Herman Cain]

No, they won't get reimbursed. That's not what this legislation is for.

When a new law is passed in this country, do we go back and undo everything that was before it?

When we reduce jail time for a specific criminal offense, do we give back those free years to those that spent time in jail? Etc.

I am not saying it should. Just posing the question, because there are still plenty of middle class people who take the no loan route. Sometimes it takes then 6-7 years to get done.

[jesmu84]

I am not saying it should. Just posing the question, because there are still plenty of middle class people who take the no loan route. Sometimes it takes then 6-7 years to get done.

I understand that.

So what?

[JWags85]

The job market is hotter than ever right now. Anyone who can communicate orally and in writing and has a little energy can get a decent job.  We have 6 figure jobs in our company that are wide open for the taking. We would love hard working , non entitled college grads to show up and we can give them great careers too. Finally, our ideal candidate is from a double directional state school. So no need for fancy resume.

Lot to unpack here. How much experience are you talking? “Non entitled” is some heavily slanted speech. And double directional state school? Umm ok. And great for your company if true.

I know 4-5 people from 23-24 years old, including my sister, who graduated with business focused degrees from very good schools including UW, Marquette, and IU who are having trouble finding a solid position, entry level or otherwise.  So pardon me for not immediately buying into this idea that a super hot job market has great jobs falling from the trees for recent college grads

[GB Warrior]

Lot to unpack here. How much experience are you talking? “Non entitled” is some heavily slanted speech. And double directional state school? Umm ok. And great for your company if true.

I know 4-5 people from 23-24, including my sister, who graduated with business focused degrees from very good schools including UW, Marquette, and IU who are having trouble finding a solid position, entry level or otherwise.  So pardon me for not immediately buying into this idea that a super hot job market has great jobs falling from the trees for recent college grads

Yep. And I'll add that the job market has perhaps never been less 'people centric' than ever before. We are successfully automating lower order jobs, and we say it will create new opportunities for the displaced to be retrained into higher order work. Few bat an eye. But guess what jobs come next?

[Herman Cain]

Lot to unpack here. How much experience are you talking? “Non entitled” is some heavily slanted speech. And double directional state school? Umm ok. And great for your company if true.

I know 4-5 people from 23-24 years old, including my sister, who graduated with business focussed degrees from very good schools including UW, Marquette, and IU who are having trouble finding a solid position, entry level or otherwise.  So pardon me for not immediately buying into this idea that a super hot job market has great jobs falling from the trees for recent college grads

For the 6 figure jobs we are looking at a low to mid 30s person with 10-12 years experience  . Business Development, Logistics management , IT, HR, Accounting. Digital Marketing etc. Sales management .

For entry level we just need someone earnest who can write well , communicate well understands basic arithmetic, multiplication , division etc  . Has skills in spreadsheets , Powerpoints etc. Self starters who are willing to pay attention to detail. We will teach them the rest. Good base and solid benefits. 

To be completely candid the kids from the better school have too high expectations when working for a company like ours .  Our customer base is not the most glamorous and we operate in some very out of the way places .  Generally the kids from the better schools want clean jobs in fancy office towers in hip settings. 

[JWags85]

For the 6 figure jobs we are looking at a low to mid 30s person with 10-12 years experience  . Business Development, Logistics management , IT, HR, Accounting. Digital Marketing etc. Sales management .

For entry level we just need someone earnest who can write well , communicate well understands basic arithmetic, multiplication , division etc  . Has skills in spreadsheets , Powerpoints etc. Self starters who are willing to pay attention to detail. We will teach them the rest. Good base and solid benefits. 

To be completely candid the kids from the better school have too high expectations when working for a company like ours .  Our customer base is not the most glamorous and we operate in some very out of the way places .  Generally the kids from the better schools want clean jobs in fancy office towers in hip settings.

So you’re not offering anything unique here, no offense. Making into 6 figures in your mid 30s is a good role, no doubt, but not like it’s speaking to a thriving job market, especially for the discussion we’re having. You could do that as a blue collar worker with no school.

You presented it like recent grads needed to be humble and hard working from low level schools and this juicy jobs were right there.  If you’re talking where you are at 35, that’s a lot about your persistence and many other variables, not the recent grad job market and the effects of tuition and loan burdens on those initial opportunities.

[dgies9156]

Excuuuuuuseee Me!!!!!!!!!!!

I was born in 1956. The absolute peak of the Baby Boom. I was graduated in 1978 into a terrible economy that never really recovered until about 1987. My first mortgage was 12.75 percent on a small home in Chicago's Western Suburbs. When was the last time a Millennial paid that on anything other than credit card debt?  I could blame that on my parents' generation and their inability to control spending and inflation, but it was what it was. You live with it.

Us boomers gave the world the tech generation. Gee in was about 1982 or so when the PC and Mac's predecessors were invented, along with the programming to make them work. It was the boomers that did that. Boomers also invented the cell phone, the curse of the Millennial Generation. We did that too and for that we may burn in hell!

Yes, spending is up. But there is 300 million of us. Debt is up because we're somewhat averse to taxes. But we have a pretty cool world right now and our country is still the one place in the world people flock to because of our innovation, creativity and economic opportunity. You want to buy into a neighborhood. Great, bring money. You won't find covenants that prohibit African-Americans, Gays and Lesbians, Hispanics or other folks our parents' generation often didn't like

We didn't ruin a damn thing. We took what our parents gave us in the 1970s and 1980s and made it more interesting, fascinating and open. We screwed up at times, I'll grant you, but what we are turning over to our children is a vibrant and exciting world full of opportunity. It's more open and more receptive to new ideas and new visions than at any other time in history. The opportunities for folks our parents' generation left on the fringes of society are better than ever. Could we have done better? Of course and we probably should have. But we've done OK and we've prepared our children well.

Yeah, we Boomers ruined everything! NOT!!!!!!!!   

[Herman Cain]

The job market is hotter than ever right now. Anyone who can communicate orally and in writing and has a little energy can get a decent job.  We have 6 figure jobs in our company that are wide open for the taking. We would love hard working , non entitled college grads to show up and we can give them great careers too. Finally, our ideal candidate is from a double directional state school. So no need for fancy resume.

Lot to unpack here. How much experience are you talking? “Non entitled” is some heavily slanted speech. And double directional state school? Umm ok. And great for your company if true.

I know 4-5 people from 23-24 years old, including my sister, who graduated with business focused degrees from very good schools including UW, Marquette, and IU who are having trouble finding a solid position, entry level or otherwise.  So pardon me for not immediately buying into this idea that a super hot job market has great jobs falling from the trees for recent college grads

For the 6 figure jobs we are looking at a low to mid 30s person with 10-12 years experience  . Business Development, Logistics management , IT, HR, Accounting. Digital Marketing etc. Sales management .

For entry level we just need someone earnest who can write well , communicate well understands basic arithmetic, multiplication , division etc  . Has skills in spreadsheets , Powerpoints etc. Self starters who are willing to pay attention to detail. We will teach them the rest. Good base and solid benefits. 

To be completely candid the kids from the better school have too high expectations when working for a company like ours .  Our customer base is not the most glamorous and we operate in some very out of the way places .  Generally the kids from the better schools want clean jobs in fancy office towers in hip settings. 

So you’re not offering anything unique here, no offense. Making into 6 figures in your mid 30s is a good role, no doubt, but not like it’s speaking to a thriving job market, especially for the discussion we’re having. You could do that as a blue collar worker with no school.

You presented it like recent grads needed to be humble and hard working from low level schools and this juicy jobs were right there.  If you’re talking where you are at 35, that’s a lot about your persistence and many other variables, not the recent grad job market and the effects of tuition and loan burdens on those initial opportunities.

The answer you just posted explains more about your generation than anything I could possibly write.

[Cheeks]

More broad question...

If there were a law/legislation being proposed that you don't directly benefit from, but would have a positive effect overall on the country, would you support it?

Of course, and I do all the time as do many other people.  That isn’t the case here.  No one put a gun to anyone’s head in taking a loan.  That is a choice.  Many of us paid our loans back, and it sucked for a good decade to do so.  What a great lesson we are teaching people....no responsibility and someone will be there to let you off the hook for a decision they made.

[Cheeks]

When I think of how unfair the world has been (and continues to be) to you I want to weep. I pray you can hang in there, but realize that even Job had limits on how much he could bear.

We all have our crosses to bear...some worse than others. 

[Cheeks]

Well done. Really illustrates the difference between me and chico. My first thought was that more kids will get to go to college to better their lives; chico's first thought was "it's not fair to me.

But then, I've had a great life. Not a single complaint (other than reading some of the posts on Scoop).

Of course you don’t think about the personal responsibility angle....he’ll, why would you.   I want stuff for freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Cheeks]

Yup, exactly.

Same cast of characters that love spending other people’s money are for this......yup, exactly.

[Cheeks]

So question for you. If a person was not rich but saved and paid for tuition etc through work or whatever means they had, should they also get reimbursed.

Yup, exactly......or, that same kid said I don’t want to get into debt so they settle for a more average school....he/she is screwed for doing the fiscal thing rather than going Big and being bailed out. 

[JWags85]

The answer you just posted explains more about your generation than anything I could possibly write.

How about instead of being arrogant and dismissive, you acknowledge the issues I’ve highlighted within?

I’ve already explained before how problematic it is that kids for the last 20 years have been programmed by parents, teachers, counselors, and schools that you NEED the best school possible, tuition be damned. When in reality, there are plenty of “less glamorous” jobs available for grads of trade schools and the like, that many of those kids are likely more suited for.  So crowing about those jobs to kids who then went to school, got worthless majors, and tons of debt, is like talking glowly of a great affordable compact car for simple commuting to someone who got a Mercedes cause they were taught that’s what they needed to drive, and now can’t get the value back.

I have no problem with the jobs or career path you are offering, but posing it as some magic bullet to “overqualified” kids saddled with loans helps nobody.  Telling me the market is “hot” when I’m mentioning strat comm or finance majors having trouble finding work in their field, cause you have jobs in construction management or manufacturing, doesn’t address my issues as much as let’s you preach about how you know so much and “my generation” is flawed. Don’t scoff at those with aspirations to work in advertising, or high finance, or branding cause they were told those were the best jobs in HS and college, and call them “entitled” or not “hard working” cause that’s the path they took and not what you expect out of your worker bees.

But what do I know, I’m just an entitled millennial. F my generation for thinking going to top college and making honor roll was supposed to lay out a diff path then going to a trade school. Not better or worse, just different.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yup, exactly......or, that same kid said I don’t want to get into debt so they settle for a more average school....he/she is screwed for doing the fiscal thing rather than going Big and being bailed out.

I already paid off my loans (though a lot of my tuition was paid for with scholarships and some help from my folks) and I wouldn't feel screwed at all if my peers had their loans forgiven. I have no idea if it's the right thing to do or not, but this isn't a good reason against it.

[rocky_warrior]

This is an interesting topic to debate.  In fact my wife chatted about it extensively yesterday.  I'll lock this up and suggest everyone here debate it in person with someone they know too!