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Author Topic: A macro view of P6 coaches  (Read 8848 times)

Lazar's Headband

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2019, 11:52:10 AM »
Guru-

You are schooling no one.  I wouldn't say you're being schooled either, just that you and TAMU have different opinions.

I understand you don't like Wojo.  But you seem to be on a crusade to convert everyone to your opinion.  As if your opinion is some sort of irrefutable fact.  In doing so, you come across as an arrogant jerk.  And you wonder why people don't like you.

Herman Cain

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2019, 11:58:25 AM »
He didn't throw Burton under the bus. Burton transferred as stated repeatedly due to family issues. John Dawson was clearly not a high major player. He had one quality high major game, against Georgetown. The G League is full of bit players like Dawson that were not high major quality.
The average G League roster is predominately good high major players.

Here is the team Dawson played on:
https://greensboro.gleague.nba.com/roster/

muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2019, 12:02:02 PM »
Guru-

You are schooling no one.  I wouldn't say you're being schooled either, just that you and TAMU have different opinions.

I understand you don't like Wojo.  But you seem to be on a crusade to convert everyone to your opinion.  As if your opinion is some sort of irrefutable fact.  In doing so, you come across as an arrogant jerk.  And you wonder why people don't like you.

People attack me like my OPINIONS are irrelevant, and that their beliefs are the correct way things are supposed to be done. That's what irritates me about it. They have opinions, I have opinions, no one knows who is right or wrong.

I'm not an arrogant jerk...just VERY impatient. We all want MU to win a National championship(s). I think that's irrefutable. I would just prefer it happen MUCH sooner as opposed to later. What's wrong with wanting that?? Yet, as soon as I say that...I get ridiculed and told that's not being realistic. People think I am DEMANDING that...of course I'm not...I just want it SO badly, and I'd prefer to not have to wait for it, that's all. Every year that goes by that they don't accomplish that, I'm another year closer to being dead.

The sooner they do it, the sooner it's out of the way, and I can move on with my life and leave everyone alone. Once you have it, it's known and no one can take it away from you. I'd rather know NOW, that way it's assured it will happen again in my lifetime. Right now, I don't know if that will or won't happen again..that's what drives me to be the way I am. I don't like thinking/fearing it may not happen again in my lifetime. Just do it...the sooner the better so I can relax.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2019, 12:12:19 PM »
The average G League roster is predominately good high major players.

Here is the team Dawson played on:
https://greensboro.gleague.nba.com/roster/

5 of the 12 players on the roster are mid or low majors. That's over 40%. Thanks for confirming my case.

Herman Cain

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2019, 12:25:14 PM »
5 of the 12 players on the roster are mid or low majors. That's over 40%. Thanks for confirming my case.
7 of the 12 are from Ohio State, Xavier, Texas Tech, Syracuse, Louisville , Virginia and Arkanas. It is that way with every team in the league.

The other players were all very significant players on their college teams.

It is not easy to make the G League. Lazar for example cant get back in it.

Marcus92

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2019, 12:45:43 PM »
Of all the players who have transferred from Marquette or left early, John Dawson wouldn't make the Top 50 for most fans in terms of impact.

As a freshman at MU, Dawson contributed little as the 5th or 6th player off the bench on a 17-15 team that went nowhere.

At Liberty, he was perhaps the equivalent of Joseph Chartouny at Fordham -- one of the better players on forgettable teams (making a single postseason appearance in the 2017 CIT) in a truly awful conference (the Big South ranks as one of the 5 worst in the country, far weaker than the Atlantic 10 today).

Good for him if he's had some success in the G League. He was not and never would have been a difference maker at Marquette.
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Lazar's Headband

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2019, 12:47:51 PM »
Guru-

Thanks for the reply.  I think that's the most reasonable post you've had about your expectations. 

 

brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2019, 12:51:30 PM »
7 of the 12 are from Ohio State, Xavier, Texas Tech, Syracuse, Louisville , Virginia and Arkanas. It is that way with every team in the league.

The other players were all very significant players on their college teams.

It is not easy to make the G League. Lazar for example cant get back in it.

So about half the league couldn't cut it at the high major level. Regardless, John Dawson specifically was not good enough to play regular minutes for Marquette while he was here. That was the determination of Buzz who only once gave him more than 20 minutes in a game & Wojo who did the same. It was also the determination of 64 other high major coaches that didn't offer him when he left Marquette. Which ties nicely to the thread title as no P6 coach thought he deserved a P6 scholarship.

MU82

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2019, 01:23:41 PM »
Was NOT schooled by TAMU(he wishes). TAMU was using what he THOUGHT Tower was saying...because that's the only way it fit his argument.

This is exactly what tower said....." But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

He did NOT say the last 4 years specifically...he said averages 21 wins a season FOR 4 years. So TAMU somehow, wants to say Tower SAID Wojo's last 4 years...he NEVER said that. TAMU made an assumption(perhaps logically). However, that disregards Wojo's first year, which was absolute trash. Factor that in, and Wojo has NOT averaged 21 years over 4 years. So that's disingenuous. I got accused of "disregarding" Deane's last year. Well apparently Tower "threw out" Wojo's first year...so we must be "disregarding" both Coaches worst season's to date, and getting our averages that way, right??

But, let's cherry pick to fit our argument however we want. So let's use Wojo's FIRST four years instead...no one liked me NOT including Deane's last year(I used his first 4)...so let's do APPLES to APPLES...Shall we??

Mike Deane: 86 wins his first 4 years..Hmmm that averages 21.5 wins per year. Let's go back to what Tower said EXACTLY shall we?? But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Wojo had: 73 wins his first four years...that averages 18.25 wins per year. Now the cries are going to be "totally unfair to dismiss Wojo's season last year, it was his best year".  ::) Remember..Tower never said specifically the LAST 4 years.

But it fits the Pro Wojo crowd to say the last 4 years, because this trendline thing that they take as freaking gospel.

Mike Deane was 100-55(.645) in his 5 years

Wojo is 97-69(.584) in his 5 years.

Everyone wants to "disregard" Wojo's first year because he had to "rebuild". The season happened, you can't just ignore it when it's convenient. 4 years is 4 years. Numbers are numbers..Guy averages 21 wins over a 4 year span, he averages 21 wins over a 4 year span...throwing out a year, middle years, last four, first 4, it doesn't matter...it's all the same #'s. Unless of course you want to make excuse, THEN it matters.

School will continue to be in session for anyone that's interested in attending...free of charge. Just sign up here, and we can get started.

Tower's EXACT quote again...But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Except Marquette did just that. I'd bet anyone MASSIVE amounts of coin if Cords were still the AD, Wojo would be on VERY thin ice, if not gone. Cords had stones.

Amazingly arrogant, guru. You schooled nobody. You will say or do anything in your desperate attempt to "fire" Wojo. It really must frost your flakes that you have no say in it whatsoever.

The trend line isn't "gospel." It's merely a fact, one of many that can be used to support or rip the coach. Wojo happens to be trending up by just about any available measure. (I won't even mention Deane again; I've said my piece, and the comparison is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve another second of time from either of us.)

I was a major Wojo supporter until Hausershima; now he has to prove himself all over again to me. I think he can, and I certainly hope he can. If not, I won't lose a second of sleep over him leaving.

Then we can hire another career assistant or mid-major hopeful who may or may not work out, a guy we all can debate the merits of for years. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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MU82

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2019, 01:27:30 PM »
Ners has documented all this in great depth in case you need more detail.

Ners also documented that Rowsey could never possibly be as good a college player as Dawson.

Ners also documented that Wojo's play for Sam at Creighton was stupid ... even though it worked exactly as planned.

Ners also documented a lot of things that were ridiculous. Citing Ners as some kind of "proof" of your arguments is pretty darn funny.

But yes, Wojo was handed a potential NCAA championship team. If only he had given the ball to Magic Dawson, we'd have won a couple titles by now.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2019, 01:56:32 PM »
People attack me like my OPINIONS are irrelevant, and that their beliefs are the correct way things are supposed to be done. That's what irritates me about it. They have opinions, I have opinions, no one knows who is right or wrong.


People don't attack you for your opinions.  They challenge you when you say things like "For some reason, some fans have seem to fallen into that "recruits good kids that make the dance occasionally" trap. Suddenly that's acceptable, since that's part of the refrain they always recite when judging Wojo."

No one has said this.  When you exaggerate, or just make something up to bolster your opinion, you are going to get called on it.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2019, 02:12:12 PM »
Here's what I think the Wojo supporters fail to get...Both Crean and Buzz had better first 5 years than Wojo has...yet, no one seems to care about that(or they say it's irrelevant for some reason). Wojo doesn't seem to be held to that same standard.

Have you seen any one say Wojo is better than Crean or Buzz? I think it's unquestionable that both Crean and Buzz did better than Wojo in their first 5 years. Neither Buzz nor Crean got fired so I'm not sure why this is relevant.

Was NOT schooled by TAMU(he wishes). TAMU was using what he THOUGHT Tower was saying...because that's the only way it fit his argument.

This is exactly what tower said....." But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

No. This is the quote in question:

I will leave this here...in another thread, Tower said people don't fire Coaches that have won 84 games in 4 years like Wojo has...

There is only one four year period in which Wojo won 84 games, the last four years, not the first four years. I didn't think that's what Tower said, I knew that's what Tower said. I don't know if you were genuinely confused on what Tower was talking about or if you intentionally misinterpreted him because it would fit your argument better. Either way, it was a mistake on your part.

Also, in a conversation about whether or not a coach should/should've been fired, I don't know why anyone would think the first four years of a coach's career are more relevant than the last 4 years.

He did NOT say the last 4 years specifically...he said averages 21 wins a season FOR 4 years. So TAMU somehow, wants to say Tower SAID Wojo's last 4 years...he NEVER said that. TAMU made an assumption(perhaps logically). However, that disregards Wojo's first year, which was absolute trash. Factor that in, and Wojo has NOT averaged 21 years over 4 years. So that's disingenuous. I got accused of "disregarding" Deane's last year. Well apparently Tower "threw out" Wojo's first year...so we must be "disregarding" both Coaches worst season's to date, and getting our averages that way, right??

Not being disingenuous at all. If you think the last five years are relevant, then compare Wojo's last five years with Deane's last five years. I just don't understand an argument where you would only look at the first four years and ignore the most recent year when deciding when to fire a coach.

But, let's cherry pick to fit our argument however we want. So let's use Wojo's FIRST four years instead...no one liked me NOT including Deane's last year(I used his first 4)...so let's do APPLES to APPLES...Shall we??

Mike Deane: 86 wins his first 4 years..Hmmm that averages 21.5 wins per year. Let's go back to what Tower said EXACTLY shall we?? But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Wojo had: 73 wins his first four years...that averages 18.25 wins per year. Now the cries are going to be "totally unfair to dismiss Wojo's season last year, it was his best year".  ::) Remember..Tower never said specifically the LAST 4 years.

But it fits the Pro Wojo crowd to say the last 4 years, because this trendline thing that they take as freaking gospel.

Actually the trendline argument is stronger when you factor in Wojo's first year. It makes the improvement look even better.

And trendline isn't gospel. Just because a coach has been improving every year doesn't mean he'll keep improving and vice versa. But I do think most people would rather have a coach that has been improving (Wojo/Jim Calhoun) vs one that has been regressing (Deane/Kevin Ollie).

Everyone wants to "disregard" Wojo's first year because he had to "rebuild". The season happened, you can't just ignore it when it's convenient. 4 years is 4 years. Numbers are numbers..Guy averages 21 wins over a 4 year span, he averages 21 wins over a 4 year span...throwing out a year, middle years, last four, first 4, it doesn't matter...it's all the same #'s. Unless of course you want to make excuse, THEN it matters.

Yes, Mike Deane averaged 21 wins over his first four years. And he wasn't fired, just like Wojo wasn't fired after this past year. Then, he went another year and his four year average dropped and he was fired. Unless the argument you think Tower was making was that if a coach averages 21 wins over a 4 year period at any point in his career it makes him immune from being fired ever. That would be a dumb argument and if that's what Tower meant than I disagree. I suspect you suspect that Tower wasn't making that argument.

School will continue to be in session for anyone that's interested in attending...free of charge. Just sign up here, and we can get started.

Yes, please school me on the following subjects:
1. How winning in the Great Midwest/CUSA is equal to winning in the Big East?
2. Why was Kevin Ollie fired and Jim Calhoun retained when Ollie's first years were so much better than Calhoun's? Did UConn make a mistake?
3. How is a recruiting class of Krunti Hester a sign that Deane's recruiting was trending up?

Tower's EXACT quote again...But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Again, here is the exact quote that started this conversation:

I will leave this here...in another thread, Tower said people don't fire Coaches that have won 84 games in 4 years like Wojo has...

Tower has also said what you said as well but since you wanted that exact quote I wanted to point it out.

Except Marquette did just that. I'd bet anyone MASSIVE amounts of coin if Cords were still the AD, Wojo would be on VERY thin ice, if not gone. Cords had stones.

I can promise you that you would lose that bet. Cords is still around and is nowhere near the fire Wojo camp.

Okay, for all of you "you must be patient" people..Let's say Wojo is here another 5 years, and produces relatively the same results as the first 5...now it's been 10 years, and where has it gotten you?? What I'm saying is..regardless of HIS or anyone's trend line(which so many use as gospel here), that doesn't guarantee you squat about how the future will play out with him. That's why I find it ironic, that the people that say patience is the way to go, yet point to his trend line like that is some "magical" future telling device. It's not.

Has anyone guaranteed success if we are patient? Maybe someone has but I can't remember anyone saying anything like that. I think some are optimistic but nothing's a guarantee. We could be patient and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and hire Coach K with Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, and Mark Few as assistant coaches and things could get worse. I've seen enough from Wojo that I'm not ready to roll the dice with a new hire yet. You are ready. That's fine, we can disagree.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your gut, don't you?? Either this guy is going to take us where we ultimately want to go, or he isn't. That can be done after 3 years, 4 years 5 years etc. You have to just "feel" it. What if this is Wojo's ceiling, and he still gets another 3-4 years(minimum). Then what?/ You have essentially wasted at least those last 3-4 years, hoping you'd find a unicorn, when if you would have acted sooner, you would have been able to recover quicker.

Now of course, it also matters what the expectations of the people running the show REALLY are(not what they say in public). You can see SOME indications, this is fine with them.

This is great. This is an irrefutable opinion. You have watched Wojo the past five years, you haven't been impressed, and you have a gut feeling that it won't get any better. That's a completely reasonable opinion to have. I have a different opinion which is fine.

People attack me like my OPINIONS are irrelevant, and that their beliefs are the correct way things are supposed to be done. That's what irritates me about it. They have opinions, I have opinions, no one knows who is right or wrong.

Honestly, Guru, I can't speak for everyone on this site but I don't believe I've ever attacked you for one of your opinions. You don't think Wojo is the guy and I respect that. Comparing Wojo's results to Deane's results is not an opinion. It's an argument. Not accepting your arguments on face value and challenging what you say is not an attack. It's a discussion, it's what sports forums are for so nerds like us can debate a sport/team that we love.
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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TAMU Eagle

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2019, 02:23:14 PM »
Wojo had no rebuilding to do in year one. He threw Deonte Burton, who played in the NBA this year under the bus. John Dawson who has played in the G League was part of the collateral damage as well. All self inflicted wounds. Ners has documented all this in great depth in case you need more detail.

I've asked you, Ners, and others this before and have yet to get an answer so I'll ask again.

What was the last team that missed the NIT, lost their coach, lost 6/7 of their top players in minutes played, lost 3/4 members of their incoming recruiting class (and the one you kept was the 2nd highest ranked and had the 3rd best career out of all four), that made the NCAA the following year? NIT? Bonus points if you can find a team where the one returning player from that top 7 was as bad as Derrick Wilson.

If someone can actually answer that question successfully, I might be more inclined to believe that Wojo didn't need to rebuild. If not, you can say Wojo didn't need to rebuild all you want, but it means you were asking him to do something that had never been done before.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2019, 02:38:14 PM »
I've asked you, Ners, and others this before and have yet to get an answer so I'll ask again.

What was the last team that missed the NIT, lost their coach, lost 6/7 of their top players in minutes played, lost 3/4 members of their incoming recruiting class (and the one you kept was the 2nd highest ranked and had the 3rd best career out of all four), that made the NCAA the following year? NIT? Bonus points if you can find a team where the one returning player from that top 7 was as bad as Derrick Wilson.

If someone can actually answer that question successfully, I might be more inclined to believe that Wojo didn't need to rebuild. If not, you can say Wojo didn't need to rebuild all you want, but it means you were asking him to do something that had never been done before.

Don't you think the word "chose to" is more appropriate. I certainly do.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2019, 02:47:29 PM »
Don't you think the word "chose to" is more appropriate. I certainly do.

No I don't. I don't think any coach could have gotten that team to the NCAAs in year 1. Not even the ghost of Al McGuire.

Do you have an answer for the question? Surely if rebuilding is a choice there must be lots of examples of coaches walking into situations as bad as Wojos and getting it done in the first year.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Silent Verbal

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2019, 03:00:44 PM »
We agree on this, and I'm pretty sure most other Scoopers do, too.

I believe he will be held to that higher standard when he faces similar circumstances, and I believe that time is approaching. Or at least I hope it is.

What do you mean when you say similar circumstances?  Crean had it far worse than Wojo when he got here in terms of just about everything.  As far as overall state of the program, Crean got the keys to a beat up Corolla, Wojo a shiny new Lexus.

jesmu84

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2019, 03:22:50 PM »
Have you seen any one say Wojo is better than Crean or Buzz? I think it's unquestionable that both Crean and Buzz did better than Wojo in their first 5 years. Neither Buzz nor Crean got fired so I'm not sure why this is relevant.

No. This is the quote in question:

There is only one four year period in which Wojo won 84 games, the last four years, not the first four years. I didn't think that's what Tower said, I knew that's what Tower said. I don't know if you were genuinely confused on what Tower was talking about or if you intentionally misinterpreted him because it would fit your argument better. Either way, it was a mistake on your part.

Also, in a conversation about whether or not a coach should/should've been fired, I don't know why anyone would think the first four years of a coach's career are more relevant than the last 4 years.

Not being disingenuous at all. If you think the last five years are relevant, then compare Wojo's last five years with Deane's last five years. I just don't understand an argument where you would only look at the first four years and ignore the most recent year when deciding when to fire a coach.

Actually the trendline argument is stronger when you factor in Wojo's first year. It makes the improvement look even better.

And trendline isn't gospel. Just because a coach has been improving every year doesn't mean he'll keep improving and vice versa. But I do think most people would rather have a coach that has been improving (Wojo/Jim Calhoun) vs one that has been regressing (Deane/Kevin Ollie).

Yes, Mike Deane averaged 21 wins over his first four years. And he wasn't fired, just like Wojo wasn't fired after this past year. Then, he went another year and his four year average dropped and he was fired. Unless the argument you think Tower was making was that if a coach averages 21 wins over a 4 year period at any point in his career it makes him immune from being fired ever. That would be a dumb argument and if that's what Tower meant than I disagree. I suspect you suspect that Tower wasn't making that argument.

Yes, please school me on the following subjects:
1. How winning in the Great Midwest/CUSA is equal to winning in the Big East?
2. Why was Kevin Ollie fired and Jim Calhoun retained when Ollie's first years were so much better than Calhoun's? Did UConn make a mistake?
3. How is a recruiting class of Krunti Hester a sign that Deane's recruiting was trending up?

Again, here is the exact quote that started this conversation:

Tower has also said what you said as well but since you wanted that exact quote I wanted to point it out.

I can promise you that you would lose that bet. Cords is still around and is nowhere near the fire Wojo camp.

Has anyone guaranteed success if we are patient? Maybe someone has but I can't remember anyone saying anything like that. I think some are optimistic but nothing's a guarantee. We could be patient and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and hire Coach K with Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, and Mark Few as assistant coaches and things could get worse. I've seen enough from Wojo that I'm not ready to roll the dice with a new hire yet. You are ready. That's fine, we can disagree.

This is great. This is an irrefutable opinion. You have watched Wojo the past five years, you haven't been impressed, and you have a gut feeling that it won't get any better. That's a completely reasonable opinion to have. I have a different opinion which is fine.

Honestly, Guru, I can't speak for everyone on this site but I don't believe I've ever attacked you for one of your opinions. You don't think Wojo is the guy and I respect that. Comparing Wojo's results to Deane's results is not an opinion. It's an argument. Not accepting your arguments on face value and challenging what you say is not an attack. It's a discussion, it's what sports forums are for so nerds like us can debate a sport/team that we love.

Game. Set. Match.

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2019, 03:27:55 PM »
What do you mean when you say similar circumstances?  Crean had it far worse than Wojo when he got here in terms of just about everything.  As far as overall state of the program, Crean got the keys to a beat up Corolla, Wojo a shiny new Lexus.

A Lexus?
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Silent Verbal

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2019, 04:27:32 PM »
A Lexus?

I don’t know, I’m not a big car guy.  A Mercedes, then?

My point was, Crean had sh!t to work with as far as resources when he got here, and Wojo had champagne. 

muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2019, 04:49:20 PM »
Game. Set. Match.

You wish...You obviously still are lost...www.wearedepaul.com That's what you're looking for.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Marcus92

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2019, 04:57:02 PM »
This is arguing different points. (As per usual here on Scoop.)

Those who talk about the cupboard being empty when Wojo arrived are referring to the roster. Period.

Following the 2013-14 season, Marquette lost 4 seniors -- including our leading scorer and 2nd leading rebounder (Davonte Gardner), our 2nd leading scorer (Jamil Wilson), our 4th leading scorer (Jake Thomas) and Chris Otule. The team's 3rd leading scorer, Todd Mayo, decided to turn pro.

That's 4 starters and a key reserve from a team that wasn't all that good to begin with, finishing at 17-15. All of those departures were out of Wojo's control. Whether or not Deonte Burton, John Dawson or anybody else transferred, that's a total rebuild.

On the other side, the Marquette men's basketball program was obviously stronger when Wojo arrived with the building of the Al McGuire center, etc.

Is this somehow not as clear as it seems to me?
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2019, 04:59:10 PM »
I don’t know, I’m not a big car guy.  A Mercedes, then?

My point was, Crean had sh!t to work with as far as resources when he got here, and Wojo had champagne. 

Not really.
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2019, 05:16:38 PM »
Have you seen any one say Wojo is better than Crean or Buzz? I think it's unquestionable that both Crean and Buzz did better than Wojo in their first 5 years. Neither Buzz nor Crean got fired so I'm not sure why this is relevant.

No. This is the quote in question:

There is only one four year period in which Wojo won 84 games, the last four years, not the first four years. I didn't think that's what Tower said, I knew that's what Tower said. I don't know if you were genuinely confused on what Tower was talking about or if you intentionally misinterpreted him because it would fit your argument better. Either way, it was a mistake on your part.

Also, in a conversation about whether or not a coach should/should've been fired, I don't know why anyone would think the first four years of a coach's career are more relevant than the last 4 years.

Not being disingenuous at all. If you think the last five years are relevant, then compare Wojo's last five years with Deane's last five years. I just don't understand an argument where you would only look at the first four years and ignore the most recent year when deciding when to fire a coach.

Actually the trendline argument is stronger when you factor in Wojo's first year. It makes the improvement look even better.

And trendline isn't gospel. Just because a coach has been improving every year doesn't mean he'll keep improving and vice versa. But I do think most people would rather have a coach that has been improving (Wojo/Jim Calhoun) vs one that has been regressing (Deane/Kevin Ollie).

Yes, Mike Deane averaged 21 wins over his first four years. And he wasn't fired, just like Wojo wasn't fired after this past year. Then, he went another year and his four year average dropped and he was fired. Unless the argument you think Tower was making was that if a coach averages 21 wins over a 4 year period at any point in his career it makes him immune from being fired ever. That would be a dumb argument and if that's what Tower meant than I disagree. I suspect you suspect that Tower wasn't making that argument.

Yes, please school me on the following subjects:
1. How winning in the Great Midwest/CUSA is equal to winning in the Big East?
2. Why was Kevin Ollie fired and Jim Calhoun retained when Ollie's first years were so much better than Calhoun's? Did UConn make a mistake?
3. How is a recruiting class of Krunti Hester a sign that Deane's recruiting was trending up?

Again, here is the exact quote that started this conversation:

Tower has also said what you said as well but since you wanted that exact quote I wanted to point it out.

I can promise you that you would lose that bet. Cords is still around and is nowhere near the fire Wojo camp.

Has anyone guaranteed success if we are patient? Maybe someone has but I can't remember anyone saying anything like that. I think some are optimistic but nothing's a guarantee. We could be patient and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and things could get worse. We could fire Wojo and hire Coach K with Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, and Mark Few as assistant coaches and things could get worse. I've seen enough from Wojo that I'm not ready to roll the dice with a new hire yet. You are ready. That's fine, we can disagree.

This is great. This is an irrefutable opinion. You have watched Wojo the past five years, you haven't been impressed, and you have a gut feeling that it won't get any better. That's a completely reasonable opinion to have. I have a different opinion which is fine.

Honestly, Guru, I can't speak for everyone on this site but I don't believe I've ever attacked you for one of your opinions. You don't think Wojo is the guy and I respect that. Comparing Wojo's results to Deane's results is not an opinion. It's an argument. Not accepting your arguments on face value and challenging what you say is not an attack. It's a discussion, it's what sports forums are for so nerds like us can debate a sport/team that we love.


Ok TAMU, this is a genuine question..I want you to ignore the trend line, and the overall records etc, for this question and tell me what have YOU seen from Wojo, that you like so much/that he does well(in your opinion), and things he needs to work on. You think he CAN get it done..that's fair...but why?? What do you see??

I will answer this as well...There are several things I look for in a Coach, that convinces me whether he is the guy or not. That being said, I personally put priority on two things more than anything else(and others may have diff things they look at). My #1 thing is in game adjustments/creativity. It has been 5 years now for Wojo, and I still have not seen any in game adjustments that make me go "oh yeah, he's got it". He might tweak a thing or two, here or there, but he doesn't do anything that to me, can change the course of the game.

For example, and they were both young/inexperienced Coaches as well..but two examples that I come up with are: Crean- A game against Wisconsin, he put Chris Grimm on Alando Tucker...no one, and i mean NO ONE saw that coming...it worked to perfection. There are plenty of other examples, but that's just one.

Buzz...There are a couple of examples here...now I don't remember the specific game(s), he did this in, but they were struggling, and after a timeout, he came out in zone. They hadn't shown it all day..got them back in the game and they went on to win..brilliant! He also pulled out zones other times as well. Another was putting Jimmy Butler on Xavier's Tu Holloway in the NCAA tournament...ball game.

Wojo has never done anything like that...he doesn't seem to have a "bag of tricks". I would have thought, after 5 years and learning from one of the greatest Coaches of all time, he would have some things in his back pocket that he could go to. A press, a trap, a zone...something...anything. And a couple of possessions here and there does NOT count as doing it or being creative.

To be fair...I do like his offense and they were much improved defensively this year, but his in game Coaching to me, is incredibly poor and could have during the course of a season swung a game or two, and that could be huge in the end.

The other thing that bothers me, and I really hate to say this because it was truly the one thing I thought he would be EXCEPTIONAL at is...recruiting. He has been ok/good...but I REALLY and truly believed with his reputation around college basketball he would Excel at MU in this area, like no other Coach before him had. Yes, he has landed some really good players..Henry and Markus come right to mind, but, if he is ultimately going to take this program where everyone wants it to go, he NEEDS to start landing top talents more consistently. Obviously he isn't going to land Duke type talent consistently, but it NEEDS to be better.

Admittedly, that's where a lot of my frustration has come in with him for me..I TRULY believed, he would hit the ground running recruiting from day 1, and the results would be better to this point than they have been, based on sheer talent alone. Right or wrong, that's the way I felt. Yes, recruiting is hit or miss, and you miss on a lot of guys, more than you hit, but if I'm honest, Crean recruited better through this part of their tenures than Wojo has...IN MY OPINION. Just on the class of Dominic, Jerel and Wesley alone, Crean wins that. Haven't seen a class like that yet from Wojo, and I thought classes like that would be the norm for him. I really did.

If you remember, what ultimately drove TC away was his failure to land Iman Shumpert...that was the nail in the coffin. At that point, after swinging and missing on so many top guys through the years, he believed he could never land enough top talent to keep the program going at a high level. Those are the types of guys I thought Wojo would be better at landing. This far, he really hasn't been.

Just my opinions.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

79Warrior

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2019, 06:26:22 PM »

What drove TC away was the frigging shot by Lopez in Anaheim😀

Cheeks

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2019, 06:53:36 PM »
MUGURU....never...always....you sure that the eagle eye of yours has NEVER seen Wojo make any major adjustments in 5 years?

You sure about that? 
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