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Author Topic: Womens Soccer Championship.  (Read 16120 times)

Jay Bee

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #325 on: July 10, 2019, 07:02:29 PM »
The assumption that a man is better at anything let alone a sport is inherently sexist. If you say person A is better at their sport than person B regardless of gender there is nothing wrong with that even if each person is a different gender. It's the generalization that makes it sexist.

I disagree. For example, men are better at basketball than women. There are differences - physical and otherwise. And the best men are far better than the best women. Acknowledging obvious facts is sexist in your mind?

mu03eng

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #326 on: July 10, 2019, 08:44:49 PM »
I disagree. For example, men are better at basketball than women. There are differences - physical and otherwise. And the best men are far better than the best women. Acknowledging obvious facts is sexist in your mind?

Can you define how you are measuring better? Men play above the rim, but does that make it better? You may say you like the mens game better but that doesn't mean its qualitative better. What would you say if someone said they thought the womens game was better? How would you prove them wrong?
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Jay Bee

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #327 on: July 10, 2019, 08:52:58 PM »
Can you define how you are measuring better? Men play above the rim, but does that make it better? You may say you like the mens game better but that doesn't mean its qualitative better. What would you say if someone said they thought the womens game was better? How would you prove them wrong?

A men’s team at a “comparable level” would beat the pants off of a women’s team. They are better.

If you start arguing “the women’s game is better”, then you’ve lost your “equal pay” whining — it’s now apples and oranges.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #328 on: July 11, 2019, 12:32:22 AM »
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.
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mu03eng

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #329 on: July 11, 2019, 07:56:29 AM »
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.

Who says they wouldn't when it comes to soccer? Women's soccer is on weird channels for the most part or not on at all. I believe when games are on they do fine, but overall you have to work hard to find domestic league games. If it's not there to watch you aren't going to get eyeballs.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #330 on: July 11, 2019, 07:59:34 AM »
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.


1. Women don't watch as much sports as men.

2. Women, like men, prefer to watch men's sports than women's sports. They aren't immune to institutional sexism since they are part of society.
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mu03eng

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #331 on: July 11, 2019, 08:00:24 AM »
A men’s team at a “comparable level” would beat the pants off of a women’s team. They are better.

If you start arguing “the women’s game is better”, then you’ve lost your “equal pay” whining — it’s now apples and oranges.

better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.
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Jay Bee

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #332 on: July 11, 2019, 08:33:11 AM »
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

It’s not subjective. You wouldn’t put your money in it and no rationale human would.

MU82

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #333 on: July 11, 2019, 08:33:32 AM »

1. Women don't watch as much sports as men.

2. Women, like men, prefer to watch men's sports than women's sports. They aren't immune to institutional sexism since they are part of society.

My daughter played basketball from the time she was 10 all the way through college (D3). But she just about never watches women's basketball. Loves Marquette, likes the NBA. I watch more women's pro and college hoops than she does.

Not making a "point." Just throwing out an anecdote.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #334 on: July 11, 2019, 08:35:58 AM »
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

Won't comment on the pay aspect because I don't believe that there is "one right answer", but the USWNT would get torched by the men's. An argument can be made that the women are just as technical as the men, but when the men are bigger faster stronger it wouldn't even be close.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #335 on: July 11, 2019, 08:42:09 AM »
My daughter played basketball from the time she was 10 all the way through college (D3). But she just about never watches women's basketball. Loves Marquette, likes the NBA. I watch more women's pro and college hoops than she does.

Not making a "point." Just throwing out an anecdote.

This anecdote is sortve my point I a microcosm. It's a sport, sports are vying for the public's entertainment dollar. They need to lock down their own demographic before coming to the negotiating table demanding more money.

That being said my understanding is the WNBA is a different story where owners take a disproportionately large chunk of money
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MU82

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #336 on: July 11, 2019, 08:50:04 AM »
This anecdote is sortve my point I a microcosm. It's a sport, sports are vying for the public's entertainment dollar. They need to lock down their own demographic before coming to the negotiating table demanding more money.

That being said my understanding is the WNBA is a different story where owners take a disproportionately large chunk of money

Does women's college basketball's demographic have to be women?

I don't have that answer, just keeping the conversation going.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #337 on: July 11, 2019, 08:53:09 AM »
https://twitter.com/pkedit/status/1148650086571712512

Figured this belonged here.  Kinda surprising considering the complete lack of support the women get in Brazil, as well as them hosting, and winning, the Copa America.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #338 on: July 11, 2019, 09:03:32 AM »
Does women's college basketball's demographic have to be women?

I don't have that answer, just keeping the conversation going.

No not at all. But I'd say it's a lot easier to compete for a women's entertainment dollar against shows geared for women (the bachelor, love island, etc) than suggesting that men give up one of men's college basketball, NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. again competing for entertainment dollar. And while viewership isn't necessarily a financial decision you're still competing with the other leagues for time in a very busy day
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:29:51 AM by Galway Eagle »
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MU82

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #339 on: July 11, 2019, 09:15:57 AM »
No not at all. But I'd say it's a lot easier to compete for a women's entertainment dollar against shows geared for women (the bachelor, love island, etc) than suggesting that men give up one of men's basketball, NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. again competing for entertainment dollar. And while viewership isn't necessarily a financial decision you're still competing with the other leagues for time in a very busy day

Thanks for the response.
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jesmu84

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #340 on: July 11, 2019, 11:03:49 AM »
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

I still think the men would win. And rather easily.

But if you're going to put up the best women's team, why not against the best men's team? Germany, brazil, etc.

JWags85

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #341 on: July 11, 2019, 11:18:34 AM »
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

Did you ever play soccer at a high level?  It is extremely physical.  The women are extremely talented but they wouldn't win 50/50 headers, nobody on the WNT could keep up with wings like Yedlin or even Arriola, and Morgan/Rapinoe/Heath would be constantly knocked off the ball in the final third.  Julie Ertz is one of the most physically imposing and aggressive players in the women's game, and she'd be giving up almost 6 inches to someone like Michael Bradley who plays in the CDM role like she does.  Its just apples to oranges.  And thats not disrespect to them

mu03eng

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #342 on: July 11, 2019, 11:27:32 AM »
Did you ever play soccer at a high level?  It is extremely physical.  The women are extremely talented but they wouldn't win 50/50 headers, nobody on the WNT could keep up with wings like Yedlin or even Arriola, and Morgan/Rapinoe/Heath would be constantly knocked off the ball in the final third.  Julie Ertz is one of the most physically imposing and aggressive players in the women's game, and she'd be giving up almost 6 inches to someone like Michael Bradley who plays in the CDM role like she does.  Its just apples to oranges.  And thats not disrespect to them

I played in college and played against a lot of the women in the ODP program growing up including some that ended up on USWNT. I agree that the men are potentially more physically dominant than the women, but I also know in a true men vs women match up some of that physical dominance gets limited by the whistle as well as the natural inclination not to run over a woman, etc. I'm just saying the gap between the physicality of the genders is much higher(or much more impactful) in basketball than it is in soccer, IMO
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Aughnanure

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #343 on: July 11, 2019, 12:14:57 PM »
I played in college and played against a lot of the women in the ODP program growing up including some that ended up on USWNT. I agree that the men are potentially more physically dominant than the women, but I also know in a true men vs women match up some of that physical dominance gets limited by the whistle as well as the natural inclination not to run over a woman, etc. I'm just saying the gap between the physicality of the genders is much higher(or much more impactful) in basketball than it is in soccer, IMO

I mean, sure it's different. But you seem to be REALLY undervaluing the athleticism of high-level male soccer players (basketball players are not more athletic or something, there's a reason there is no 6'6 star in soccer besides a goalie here or there). The difference in speed alone would kill the WNT.

This is all dumb, because every time it is brought up it takes away from how good the women's team. Same way I feel about how whenever the USWNT does very well there are the inevitable endless online takes trashing the men's team as garbage - which is wrong, unnecessary, and very unfair in the context it exists in compared to the women's. There's a weird toxic relationship developing I see now between fans of the USMNT and USWNT that almost seems like a rivalry, with some USWNT seemingly rooting against the men's team now.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:19:44 PM by Aughnanure »
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StillAWarrior

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #344 on: July 11, 2019, 12:54:28 PM »
I still think the men would win. And rather easily.

But if you're going to put up the best women's team, why not against the best men's team? Germany, brazil, etc.

Totally anecdotal experience here, but my son played soccer in HS.  The boys team at his school was fairly middle of the pack.  They made the playoffs, but didn't generally get too far.  The girls team at his HS, on the other hand, was outstanding.  They won State five years in a row (and 6 of 7).  They were undefeated for four of those five years.  Number one in the state, and were ranked No. 2 nationally for three or four years.  They were really, really good.  They decided they'd like to play against the boys team.  They talked a lot of trash leading up to the game.  When the boys were up 5-0 relatively early in the game, it was decided to change the format and mix things up and stop with the boys v. girls thing.

Simply put, boys/men have extreme physical advantages over girls/women.  Huge.  I really enjoy watching USWNT play and think they are amazing.  I think USMNT is very disappointing.  But, I think that the men would easily defeat the women.

For the record, I'm perfectly willing to agree that there is a lot of semantic issues tied up with use of word "better."  I think the men's team would soundly defeat the women's team.  Many would say that means that they are "better".  I think that word is flexible enough to be used differently.  A 250 lb lineman who never wrestled might be able to defeat a 106 lb state champion wrestler, but that doesn't mean he's a "better" wrestler.
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Jay Bee

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #345 on: July 11, 2019, 01:29:05 PM »
So now the argument becomes, “everyone agrees the men are better, but pay the gals the same anyway, damn it!!! And if you disagree with equal pay for lesser performance, u r sexist”

forgetful

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #346 on: July 11, 2019, 01:49:11 PM »
So now the argument becomes, “everyone agrees the men are better, but pay the gals the same anyway, damn it!!! And if you disagree with equal pay for lesser performance, u r sexist”

No. That is what you want to pretend the argument to be.

The argument I made was:

1. The women generate more revenue for the US Soccer Federation.
2. The women's national team draws a larger audiences than men's national team.
3. The women are more marketable, well known, and recognizable.

In all regards, the women's team has justified equal or higher pay, yet simply because of their gender they are being paid less.

Who would beat who in a game is immaterial when the actual revenue generating games are separate and distinct entities.

Jay Bee

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #347 on: July 11, 2019, 02:01:53 PM »
Why do the women get such a nice base pay compared to the guys? Surely they want to give that up?

If one truly wanted equality, one could fight for one team, all genders welcome. But there again, true equality would mean the women are SOL.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #348 on: July 11, 2019, 02:20:27 PM »
Why do the women get such a nice base pay compared to the guys? Surely they want to give that up?

If I were them, I would.  They are the best team in the world and would kill it with a performance laden contract. 

skianth16

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Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
« Reply #349 on: July 11, 2019, 02:59:54 PM »
No. That is what you want to pretend the argument to be.

The argument I made was:

1. The women generate more revenue for the US Soccer Federation.
2. The women's national team draws a larger audiences than men's national team.
3. The women are more marketable, well known, and recognizable.

In all regards, the women's team has justified equal or higher pay, yet simply because of their gender they are being paid less.

Who would beat who in a game is immaterial when the actual revenue generating games are separate and distinct entities.

I don't know why it's so convoluted, but I can't seem to find a simple answer on the revenue piece. From what I've seen, in the last 3 or 4 years, both teams have brought it basically the same revenue from games (+/- 1-2%). But what about World Cup revenue? Where does that come into play? How much have the men brought in vs. the women?

Also, don't forget that each team has their own CBA. For some of the unequal pay issues raised by the women, the men addressed them in a more recent CBA, driving some of the difference. Maybe there should only be one CBA/union? Maybe the women should get a better rep?
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