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Marquette
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Date/Time: Oct 4, 2019
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Poll

Which player was the biggest bust?

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Total Members Voted: 186

Author Topic: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era  (Read 5156 times)

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2019, 11:27:16 PM »
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

I’d say the track record of Duke assistants who become head coaches cast doubt on Wojo, whereas Crean was instrumental in the success at multiple programs and was Izzo’s right hand guy on the 1999 Final Four team. I remember being in the BC during the first two rounds and seeing Crean up on the sidelines barking out instructions almost as much as Izzo.
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MU82

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2019, 06:21:00 AM »
That’s a great question, and I’m not sure I have an answer.  I think it was Goose who said that the O’Neill and Crean hires happened largely because of outside influences who were in Bill Cords’ ear.  I don’t have any info beyond that, but whoever those influences were, they obviously knew what to look for, and the results show it. 

A question that’s often asked on here is, “Well, if you didn’t want Wojo, who would you have hired instead?”  But really, that’s not our job to know.  It’s the person doing the hiring’s job to find the right candidate, not just out of the big names but the thousands of coaches out there who might be diamonds in the rough.  Chris Beard was coaching in Division II at the time of Wojo’s hiring.  It would’ve taken someone really savvy with their ear to the ground to find him, but if we’d offered him the job, I’m guessing he would’ve taken it.  That’s a very extreme scenario, but with some great good luck, it’s not out of the question. 

Now, in the fictional scenario where we hired Beard, the next argument would be, “But MU fans would revolt if we hired someone with Beard’s resume.”  Well, we’d done it before with Crean, O’Neill, and Buzz, and their success shut people up.

Agree with the "it's not our job" line. Of course, we try to make it our job 'round these parts!

When is the last time a major program hired a D2 coach? Fun to speculate about somebody like Beard but it simply wasn't going to happen -- at Marquette or anywhere else -- so it's a little silly.

I’d say the track record of Duke assistants who become head coaches cast doubt on Wojo, whereas Crean was instrumental in the success at multiple programs and was Izzo’s right hand guy on the 1999 Final Four team. I remember being in the BC during the first two rounds and seeing Crean up on the sidelines barking out instructions almost as much as Izzo.

So you pass on a potentially great coach because of a ho-hum history of Duke assistants? Not saying that's Wojo, but it could be Scheyer or somebody else. Seems a crazy way to evaluate somebody.

Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Damn ... why didn't I think of that?

When these young coaches have a chance to stub their toe at Army, Lehigh, Fairfield, Hofstra, Oral Roberts, Tulsa, etc, etc, it gives them the opportunity to screwup and not under the glaring lights.  How to organize, run a team, deal with media, deal with recruiting, administration, etc.  HUGE benefit to doing that not at a high major. HUGE.

I generally agree with this notion, but there also have been many long-time assistants who have done quite well without that benefit. Izzo, Williams, Crean, Painter, Fisher, Stevens, etc.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2019, 07:47:27 AM »
When is the last time a major program hired a D2 coach?

Kim Anderson at Missouri.  It was a disaster.

UWGB hired the hottest D2 coach around, Linc Darner, and while he's been good, he's not banging on the doors of any high major jobs.

lawdog77

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2019, 08:20:42 AM »
Four year recruits, Carter is obvious. Transfers, Chartouny is obvious. Then of course there's Gabe Levin & Ike Eke who to date have literally done nothing on the court for MU.
I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.

TSmith34

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2019, 09:07:14 AM »
I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.
Got recruited over in the form of Henry Ellenson IIRC
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oldwarrior81

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2019, 09:12:11 AM »

For my money it’s Joe. Had he put in 15-20 solid PG min this year then 1) Everyone not so gassed at end of year 2) Markus plays more off the ball 3) which maybe means Hausers don’t lose heart and stick around.

The grad transfer route is always an unknown.   Chartouny didn't play up to fans expectations.  Probably not up to those of the coaching staff either.

The consensus top grad transfer guard last season was Joe Cremo.  Cremo had averaged 18.4 points a game on over 45% shooting from three for Albany.  Jay Wright apparently found the guy that would step in and lessen the loss of the four guys that left Nova for the NBA.

However, he proved to be anything but that down the stretch.    Even with Quinerly flopping out of the rotation, over the last five games of the season (BEast tourney and NCAA), Cremo averaged 5.6 minutes a game.   Without scoring a point over his final six.
 
 

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2019, 09:35:35 AM »
I was not following recruiting much back then (still don't). What is the stroy with Gabe Levin? I honestly did not know he was on campus at all.

had a girlfriend back west. Also between him leaving and Kyle Washington backing off it seems like a lot of people expected Henry to stay at least two years.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2019, 11:39:20 AM »

So you pass on a potentially great coach because of a ho-hum history of Duke assistants? Not saying that's Wojo, but it could be Scheyer or somebody else. Seems a crazy way to evaluate somebody.



You don't pass, but you look at how well prepared they are for the job.  There are so many advantages that Duke has that it makes it difficult for guys trained in the Duke system to adjust. You don't recruit at Duke, you choose. And it seems Coach K gives less responsibility to his assistants than other coaches do. I don't know what was in the magical Wojo PowerPoint that put him over the top in the search but if it was "this is what we did at Duke and this is what we'll do here" then that should give a hiring committee pause. 
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2019, 11:40:04 AM »
had a girlfriend back west. Also between him leaving and Kyle Washington backing off it seems like a lot of people expected Henry to stay at least two years.

there was much more than that.  It was a cultural fit.
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MU82

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2019, 11:47:14 AM »
You don't pass, but you look at how well prepared they are for the job.  There are so many advantages that Duke has that it makes it difficult for guys trained in the Duke system to adjust. You don't recruit at Duke, you choose. And it seems Coach K gives less responsibility to his assistants than other coaches do. I don't know what was in the magical Wojo PowerPoint that put him over the top in the search but if it was "this is what we did at Duke and this is what we'll do here" then that should give a hiring committee pause.

Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2019, 12:32:20 PM »
Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!

Bray was a little different based on the timing of his tenure at Duke and his success at Delaware. His successor, another Duke assistant, flopped big time (David Henderson).

I don't think I'd touch a D2 guy. Give me a good mid-major D1 head coach who's had success and multiple NCAA tournament appearances.
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Research Report

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2019, 12:54:31 PM »
Sure, this is right. And I'm guessing that Wojo convinced the powers that be that he was well-prepared for the job.

Brey has been pretty darn good for a really long time at ND after 9 years as K's assistant. Amaker was in over his head at Michigan but he has settled in very nicely at Harvard. So, with Brey especially, one can always find an exception to the "rule."

I like my chances a lot more with K's top assistant than with some D2 guy, but that's just me.

Some here think dozens of high-major coaches will come running for the job after Wojo leaves. Holding out hope for Bennett!

Billy beat me to it, but I was going to point out that Brey did have that five year “audition” period at Delaware where he had to learn to recruit and win with players who Duke most certainly would not bat an eye at.  For a Duke assistant, perhaps that’s the best route.  Wojo stayed at Duke a *long* time before leaving the nest.  That might’ve been to his detriment.

I agree that a DII guy would be a stretch for a school like Marquette.  Just threw out an extreme example, and like Fluffy said, other, smaller schools have gone that route with mixed results. 

Wojo was absolutely a safe hire for Marquette.  Everything about it looked great on paper, and his Duke pedigree has likely bought him more patience with fans and the administration.  So, too, has his lack of experience as a head coach, as the argument can be made that he’s learning on the job, even though he’s been coaching at the DI level in one position or another for 20 years.  MU’s best head coaching hires have not been the safe ones.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2019, 03:14:04 PM »
Bray was a little different based on the timing of his tenure at Duke and his success at Delaware. His successor, another Duke assistant, flopped big time (David Henderson).

I don't think I'd touch a D2 guy. Give me a good mid-major D1 head coach who's had success and multiple NCAA tournament appearances.


Two of Marquette's best coaches post-Al have been assistants from other programs where Marquette was their first coaching gig.  Their mid-major coaching hires weren't great.

You hire the best person for the job based on the criteria you lay out in the beginning.  Wojo has been a C+/B- hire so far.  He has done some good things, but hasn't done others.  I don't think he's been a bad hire, but I don't think he's been a great one by any means.

Cheeks

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2019, 11:34:06 PM »
Billy beat me to it, but I was going to point out that Brey did have that five year “audition” period at Delaware where he had to learn to recruit and win with players who Duke most certainly would not bat an eye at.  For a Duke assistant, perhaps that’s the best route.  Wojo stayed at Duke a *long* time before leaving the nest.  That might’ve been to his detriment.

I agree that a DII guy would be a stretch for a school like Marquette.  Just threw out an extreme example, and like Fluffy said, other, smaller schools have gone that route with mixed results. 

Wojo was absolutely a safe hire for Marquette.  Everything about it looked great on paper, and his Duke pedigree has likely bought him more patience with fans and the administration.  So, too, has his lack of experience as a head coach, as the argument can be made that he’s learning on the job, even though he’s been coaching at the DI level in one position or another for 20 years.  MU’s best head coaching hires have not been the safe ones.

Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn’t do that...thankfully.
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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2019, 11:48:27 PM »
On the Duke pedigree thing. I am sure it bought him some patience with some fans and some members of the administration. But I've felt for awhile that one of the reasons many have been quick to dismiss Wojo is because of his Duke pedigree. Doubly so because I feel like Wojo was one of the more hated Dukies when he was on the court.
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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2019, 11:02:56 AM »
Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn’t do that...thankfully.

Do you remember who #1 and/or #2 was?
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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2019, 12:10:17 PM »
Wojo was also rated the #2 or #3 assistant in the country.  Safe may be the word, but also consider d a smart hire if going down that route of assistant coach.  Safe would be going with an internal assistant so as not to rock the apple cart.....we didn’t do that...thankfully.

I have not been a flag waver for Wojo, but I would say that if you were going for an external assistant, you couldn't have made a better bet.

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2019, 02:02:56 PM »
I have not been a flag waver for Wojo, but I would say that if you were going for an external assistant, you couldn't have made a better bet.

At the time, I wrote an article for Cracked Sidewalks about potential external assistant hires. I didn't include Wojo because I thought it was aiming too high.

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
Do you remember who #1 and/or #2 was?

Back in the day, Joe Dooley was 1, Wojo 2, Gard 3.  That was one list.  There were others.

There used to be an award that went out to the top assistant coach, KO won it.  Not sure if that award still exists
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swoopem

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2019, 04:08:39 PM »
Back in the day, Joe Dooley was 1, Wojo 2, Gard 3.  That was one list.  There were others.

There used to be an award that went out to the top assistant coach, KO won it.  Not sure if that award still exists

Never heard of Joe Dooley
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oldwarrior81

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2019, 04:19:00 PM »
here's a list with Joe Dooley at Kansas first, Wojo second and Gard third, Hopkins at Syracuse fourth.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1155271-the-15-best-assistant-coaches-in-college-basketball

Dooley took the head job at Florida Gulf Coast.  Two NCAA's, two NIT's in five years and he moved to East Carolina last season.

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2019, 04:19:39 PM »
Never heard of Joe Dooley

Great assistant. Was a head coach at East Carolina. Later spent 10 years at Kansas and earned the HC job at FGCU when Andy Enfield left. Went to the NCAA tournament twice & NIT twice in 5 years. Took over ECU again last year.

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2019, 09:53:20 PM »
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