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Author Topic: The best path to success  (Read 1713 times)

Marcus92

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The best path to success
« on: April 26, 2019, 02:58:07 PM »
Seems like many of the arguments here about the state of MU basketball come down to a fundamental disagreement over the best path to success.

Just win baby
Some believe that success requires an uncompromising approach. It's about getting results right now. A great coach shouldn't need years to build relationships, land top recruits, establish an offensive/defensive system and put together a roster that can win league championships and compete for a national title. Great coaches just do it. If you can, you're a winner. If you can't, you're a loser. Failure is unacceptable. Anything less than the best is "settling for mediocrity."

Progress over perfection
Others hold that success requires a more patient approach. They see wisdom in the adage, "Rome wasn't built in a day." Greatness isn't achieved overnight. Nothing worthwhile is easy. There are no simple answers. A great coach shouldn't be afraid to aspire greatly and fail -- as long as he's willing to learn, adapt and improve along the way. That's what "winning every day" is all about. With focus and commitment, you can eventually achieve the ultimate goal.

What's that mean for MU?
I'm definitely in the latter camp. "Progress before perfection" forms the core of modern agile business methodology, which emphasizes continuous improvement and flexible response to change. This also seems to be the approach favored by MU and Wojo.

It's not a new idea. Consider the planning for D-Day. The ultimate goal was clear: the complete and unconditional surrender of Germany. But the Allies opted against a direct, immediate strike into Fortress Europe (Just win baby) -- favoring a more limited invasion of North Africa (Progress before perfection). This was the Americans' trial by fire, one marked by many humiliating defeats. But the lessons learned made the invasions of Sicily and Normandy possible, followed by the drive to Berlin.

The next questions are tough ones. How much progress is enough? Are you learning the lessons you should? Or how do you know when the time for patience has passed, and it's time for new leadership?
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Silent Verbal

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2019, 07:37:52 PM »
I guess I really have no idea what you mean here.  Are you suggesting that Wojo has been building for the future and hasn’t been trying to win as many games as possible every single year?  You don’t get draft picks if you suck in college sports.  You just suck, period.

Wojo has absolutely tried to Just Win Baby.  He took Henry Ellenson, who was generally regarded as a surefire one and done, and agreed to waste three years of scholarship on his hack brother to seal the deal.  Sounds like Just Win Baby to me.

He’s also pursued multiple other one and done prospects, like Grimes and Mannion.  He’s plugged holes with grad transfers like Chartouney and Reinhardt.  Reinhardt was the absolute definition of a hired gun.  Again, Just Win Baby.

His program also hasn’t been the picture of stability, as evidenced by the Hausers’ transfer.  He’s also had other key cogs like Cheatham and Carter take their leave.

What system would you say he has in place right now?  What types of players does he like to recruit?  So far, Wojo’s tenure has felt less like “progress over perfection” and more like “throw a bunch of crap at the wall and see what sticks.”  Maybe for years 1 and 2 that would’ve been acceptable.  Going into year 6, it no longer is.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 07:39:49 PM by Research Report »

Herman Cain

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2019, 08:27:34 PM »
Marquette has a tradition of basketball success.  If we look at the period from KO forward the standard has been to make it to the NCAA tournament. Have some sweet sixteen appearances and an occasional deeper run. The down years are NIT.  For whatever reason we have had to change coaches and those new coaches do get some grace period to put in place their imprint on the program that meets the generally accepted standards.

By way of comparisoin, The Al period through Majerus had a  higher standard for tournament success. The Tex Winter through Eddie Hickey period had a slightly lower standard for tournament success. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that Marquette is an established long term successful player in College basketall .

In terms of facilities and resources, MU has everything it needs to compete at the highest level. It is a member of a premier  conference and the school itself is attractive to student athletes.

Lets look at our current steward of the Head Coaching reigns. While I am not a fan of Wojo, I am willing to give him good marks for the following two items: 1) He has demonstrated an ability to recruit players who are capable of being starters or key players at the high major level. This has been  through the high school route, traditional transfers and grad transfers. 2:) The coach has shown an appreciation for and embraced the tradition of success.

So far the coach has , come close to, but not met the acceptable standard of success in the KO and forward era. I believe there are other coaches out there who could achieve more with the available tools than Wojo. He simply is not enough of a trustworthy leader for the players to really get behind his type of program and take the results to where they need to be. Unfortunately, Wojo has achieved enough success to not merit being asked to leave. My great hope is that he is lured away with good money after posting another 20 win plus type year. Hopefully, we can get a good young coach with a quality basketball mind who can do great things. Wojo is more of a corporate hack type who gets ahead on corporate brown nosing and has no real substance. Guys like that have a hard time achieving top level success. They are good at milking the system though. MU can do better.

jesmu84

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2019, 09:54:41 PM »
Marquette has a tradition of basketball success.  If we look at the period from KO forward the standard has been to make it to the NCAA tournament. Have some sweet sixteen appearances and an occasional deeper run. The down years are NIT.  For whatever reason we have had to change coaches and those new coaches do get some grace period to put in place their imprint on the program that meets the generally accepted standards.

By way of comparisoin, The Al period through Majerus had a  higher standard for tournament success. The Tex Winter through Eddie Hickey period had a slightly lower standard for tournament success. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that Marquette is an established long term successful player in College basketall .

In terms of facilities and resources, MU has everything it needs to compete at the highest level. It is a member of a premier  conference and the school itself is attractive to student athletes.

Lets look at our current steward of the Head Coaching reigns. While I am not a fan of Wojo, I am willing to give him good marks for the following two items: 1) He has demonstrated an ability to recruit players who are capable of being starters or key players at the high major level. This has been  through the high school route, traditional transfers and grad transfers. 2:) The coach has shown an appreciation for and embraced the tradition of success.

So far the coach has , come close to, but not met the acceptable standard of success in the KO and forward era. I believe there are other coaches out there who could achieve more with the available tools than Wojo. He simply is not enough of a trustworthy leader for the players to really get behind his type of program and take the results to where they need to be. Unfortunately, Wojo has achieved enough success to not merit being asked to leave. My great hope is that he is lured away with good money after posting another 20 win plus type year. Hopefully, we can get a good young coach with a quality basketball mind who can do great things. Wojo is more of a corporate hack type who gets ahead on corporate brown nosing and has no real substance. Guys like that have a hard time achieving top level success. They are good at milking the system though. MU can do better.

Who would you say is on your Top 5 list that meets this criteria?

RushmoreAcademy

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2019, 10:36:19 PM »
You know you’re in trouble when a post has its own subheadings.

Lennys Tap

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2019, 10:51:42 PM »
Seems like many of the arguments here about the state of MU basketball come down to a fundamental disagreement over the best path to success.

Just win baby
Some believe that success requires an uncompromising approach. It's about getting results right now. A great coach shouldn't need years to build relationships, land top recruits, establish an offensive/defensive system and put together a roster that can win league championships and compete for a national title. Great coaches just do it. If you can, you're a winner. If you can't, you're a loser. Failure is unacceptable. Anything less than the best is "settling for mediocrity."

Progress over perfection
Others hold that success requires a more patient approach. They see wisdom in the adage, "Rome wasn't built in a day." Greatness isn't achieved overnight. Nothing worthwhile is easy. There are no simple answers. A great coach shouldn't be afraid to aspire greatly and fail -- as long as he's willing to learn, adapt and improve along the way. That's what "winning every day" is all about. With focus and commitment, you can eventually achieve the ultimate goal.

What's that mean for MU?
I'm definitely in the latter camp. "Progress before perfection" forms the core of modern agile business methodology, which emphasizes continuous improvement and flexible response to change. This also seems to be the approach favored by MU and Wojo.

It's not a new idea. Consider the planning for D-Day. The ultimate goal was clear: the complete and unconditional surrender of Germany. But the Allies opted against a direct, immediate strike into Fortress Europe (Just win baby) -- favoring a more limited invasion of North Africa (Progress before perfection). This was the Americans' trial by fire, one marked by many humiliating defeats. But the lessons learned made the invasions of Sicily and Normandy possible, followed by the drive to Berlin.

The next questions are tough ones. How much progress is enough? Are you learning the lessons you should? Or how do you know when the time for patience has passed, and it's time for new leadership?

Summation of your post:

Some people are bad, awful, shortsighted, mean and stupid.

Some people are good, smart, reasonable and patient.

You think you're in group #2.

I guess congratulations are in order. LOL

MUHoopsFan2

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2019, 12:41:53 AM »
Marquette has a tradition of basketball success.  If we look at the period from KO forward the standard has been to make it to the NCAA tournament. Have some sweet sixteen appearances and an occasional deeper run. The down years are NIT.  For whatever reason we have had to change coaches and those new coaches do get some grace period to put in place their imprint on the program that meets the generally accepted standards.

By way of comparisoin, The Al period through Majerus had a  higher standard for tournament success. The Tex Winter through Eddie Hickey period had a slightly lower standard for tournament success. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that Marquette is an established long term successful player in College basketall .

In terms of facilities and resources, MU has everything it needs to compete at the highest level. It is a member of a premier  conference and the school itself is attractive to student athletes.

Lets look at our current steward of the Head Coaching reigns. While I am not a fan of Wojo, I am willing to give him good marks for the following two items: 1) He has demonstrated an ability to recruit players who are capable of being starters or key players at the high major level. This has been  through the high school route, traditional transfers and grad transfers. 2:) The coach has shown an appreciation for and embraced the tradition of success.

So far the coach has , come close to, but not met the acceptable standard of success in the KO and forward era. I believe there are other coaches out there who could achieve more with the available tools than Wojo. He simply is not enough of a trustworthy leader for the players to really get behind his type of program and take the results to where they need to be. Unfortunately, Wojo has achieved enough success to not merit being asked to leave. My great hope is that he is lured away with good money after posting another 20 win plus type year. Hopefully, we can get a good young coach with a quality basketball mind who can do great things. Wojo is more of a corporate hack type who gets ahead on corporate brown nosing and has no real substance. Guys like that have a hard time achieving top level success. They are good at milking the system though. MU can do better.
Superb....this might have been your best post in awhile. Good stuff.

mug644

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2019, 04:50:12 AM »
Marquette has a tradition of basketball success.  If we look at the period from KO forward the standard has been to make it to the NCAA tournament. Have some sweet sixteen appearances and an occasional deeper run. The down years are NIT.  For whatever reason we have had to change coaches and those new coaches do get some grace period to put in place their imprint on the program that meets the generally accepted standards.

By way of comparisoin, The Al period through Majerus had a  higher standard for tournament success. The Tex Winter through Eddie Hickey period had a slightly lower standard for tournament success. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that Marquette is an established long term successful player in College basketall .

In terms of facilities and resources, MU has everything it needs to compete at the highest level. It is a member of a premier  conference and the school itself is attractive to student athletes.

Lets look at our current steward of the Head Coaching reigns. While I am not a fan of Wojo, I am willing to give him good marks for the following two items: 1) He has demonstrated an ability to recruit players who are capable of being starters or key players at the high major level. This has been  through the high school route, traditional transfers and grad transfers. 2:) The coach has shown an appreciation for and embraced the tradition of success.

So far the coach has , come close to, but not met the acceptable standard of success in the KO and forward era. I believe there are other coaches out there who could achieve more with the available tools than Wojo. He simply is not enough of a trustworthy leader for the players to really get behind his type of program and take the results to where they need to be. Unfortunately, Wojo has achieved enough success to not merit being asked to leave. My great hope is that he is lured away with good money after posting another 20 win plus type year. Hopefully, we can get a good young coach with a quality basketball mind who can do great things. Wojo is more of a corporate hack type who gets ahead on corporate brown nosing and has no real substance. Guys like that have a hard time achieving top level success. They are good at milking the system though. MU can do better.

I4?

NCMUFan

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2019, 06:35:49 AM »
Who would you say is on your Top 5 list that meets this criteria?

I have to agree, let's see the Top 5 list that meets Herman Cain's criteria that are available for MU to hire.

NCMUFan

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2019, 07:06:11 AM »
Marquette has a tradition of basketball success.  If we look at the period from KO forward the standard has been to make it to the NCAA tournament. Have some sweet sixteen appearances and an occasional deeper run. The down years are NIT.  For whatever reason we have had to change coaches and those new coaches do get some grace period to put in place their imprint on the program that meets the generally accepted standards.

By way of comparisoin, The Al period through Majerus had a  higher standard for tournament success. The Tex Winter through Eddie Hickey period had a slightly lower standard for tournament success. Nonetheless, it is safe to say that Marquette is an established long term successful player in College basketall .

In terms of facilities and resources, MU has everything it needs to compete at the highest level. It is a member of a premier  conference and the school itself is attractive to student athletes.

Lets look at our current steward of the Head Coaching reigns. While I am not a fan of Wojo, I am willing to give him good marks for the following two items: 1) He has demonstrated an ability to recruit players who are capable of being starters or key players at the high major level. This has been  through the high school route, traditional transfers and grad transfers. 2:) The coach has shown an appreciation for and embraced the tradition of success.

So far the coach has , come close to, but not met the acceptable standard of success in the KO and forward era. I believe there are other coaches out there who could achieve more with the available tools than Wojo. He simply is not enough of a trustworthy leader for the players to really get behind his type of program and take the results to where they need to be. Unfortunately, Wojo has achieved enough success to not merit being asked to leave. My great hope is that he is lured away with good money after posting another 20 win plus type year. Hopefully, we can get a good young coach with a quality basketball mind who can do great things. Wojo is more of a corporate hack type who gets ahead on corporate brown nosing and has no real substance. Guys like that have a hard time achieving top level success. They are good at milking the system though. MU can do better.
Some good reads:
https://www.capitalgazette.com/news/ph-ac-cs-wojo-1111-20141112-story.html

https://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/stevewojciechowskimarquetteman.html

There are probably other articles out there.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 07:23:40 AM by NCMUFan »

willie warrior

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2019, 04:28:39 PM »
Face it sports fans
We certainly are not on that path right now.

TheManeTrain

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2019, 04:38:17 PM »
Face it sports fans
We certainly are not on that path right now.

So why are you wasting your time paying attention?

willie warrior

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Re: The best path to success
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2019, 07:33:10 PM »
So why are you wasting your time paying attention?
In order to keep you occupied reading my posts. Touche'