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Marquette
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 4, 2019
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Schedule for 2018-19
24-10

Author Topic: What was Wojo's alternative?  (Read 12108 times)

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #225 on: April 20, 2019, 06:16:17 PM »
Forgetful

I am taking game in and game out real contributors. The two guys noted had moments, not consistent game performances. In addition, if that is being coached up, the talent level is lower than I thought. I will say, both are better players than I thought they would ever be, but really just role players. If that is the talent level and bar, losing two of top three players is even bigger loss.


forgetful

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #226 on: April 20, 2019, 06:28:24 PM »
Forgetful

I am taking game in and game out real contributors. The two guys noted had moments, not consistent game performances. In addition, if that is being coached up, the talent level is lower than I thought. I will say, both are better players than I thought they would ever be, but really just role players. If that is the talent level and bar, losing two of top three players is even bigger loss.

Not disagreeing on some aspects of what you are saying. My only point was, that he has done wonders so far with both of them. That means he can coach people up. He also completely rebuilt Jujuan Johnson's shot, something the previous coach failed at for years. That means the ability is there. Wojo is also very well respected at the college and NBA level as a bigs coach/developer. So he has to have the ability.

I actually think his biggest problem is not properly recruiting to his system. The Hauser's are great people, and players, but they honestly do not fit Wojo's system well. So when you recruit them, you have two choices. Get them to buy-in to your system, and play their role, even though it is sub-optimal for them, or re-design your system to accommodate them.

One of those has to be achieved, or individuals will part ways.

MU82

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #227 on: April 20, 2019, 06:52:31 PM »
Two players who got any playing time at all didn't improve under Wojo's watch the last couple of years: Cain ... and Joey.

Now, if the guys who will give Wojo absolutely no credit for anything want, they can call that an accident, or give all credit to the players for improving despite him, or give some credit to the assistants and the rest to the players, or whatever.

But to deny that Markus, Sam, Sacar, Theo, Bailey, Heldt, etc, didn't improve the last 2-3 years is just being stubborn for the sake of it.

The "My Babies, They Wrote Me A Letter" fiasco has pushed me to the Wojo's On The Clock camp, but that doesn't mean I have to make believe he doesn't deserve some credit for some things he has accomplished.
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

-- Pope Francis

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #228 on: April 20, 2019, 06:58:36 PM »
MU 82

As I said in previous post, I will concede there was improvement with some of the players you noted. But, none of the improvement was enough for any of those noted to be real contributors on regular basis. They have had moments, but from guys you can count in every game.

Note, I am not talking about Sam or Markus. They came to MU with higher skill set and have had normal progression.

Will add, I would hope every player would make progress YOY regardless of coach. I am not smart enough ball guy to break down major improvements with the guys you noted. I will take your word that Wojo made guys better.

MU82

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #229 on: April 20, 2019, 07:31:30 PM »
MU 82

As I said in previous post, I will concede there was improvement with some of the players you noted. But, none of the improvement was enough for any of those noted to be real contributors on regular basis. They have had moments, but from guys you can count in every game.

Note, I am not talking about Sam or Markus. They came to MU with higher skill set and have had normal progression.

Will add, I would hope every player would make progress YOY regardless of coach. I am not smart enough ball guy to break down major improvements with the guys you noted. I will take your word that Wojo made guys better.

We agree on much of this, although I don't think it's "normal" for even a highly skilled player to progress to being an All-American and his conference's POY.

再见,好好玩
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

-- Pope Francis

Golden Avalanche

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #230 on: April 20, 2019, 08:23:15 PM »
You are correct. Let me clarify.

The very good results and the very bad results are two sides of the same coin. It’s all part of overweighting the usage towards one player. The variance of the results is a feature, not a bug.

Overweighting usage towards one player is a strategy most commonly used by bad teams. Good teams, like Marquette, should minimize variance of results.

The primary reason to avoid overweighting usage is exactly what happened. Injuries are a fact of life.

Wojo opted to use a risky strategy and it worked until it imploded. I believe that this was a coaching mistake by Wojo because of both the theory and the data.

Matt Painter and Purdue did the same thing. Except their results were flipped -- underwhelming team performances early with exceedingly good performances late.

Was Painter lucky? How do we determine which of the multitude of coaches who go with this risky strategy will never see it implode?

If Markus doesn't strain his groin nor sprain his wrist and is playing healthy in March does the overweight usage hurt us? Or do we still turn it over 25 times against Creighton? Do we still allow Hall to end the game on an 18-0 run? Do we still allow the Hoyas backcourt to drop 50 on us? Do we still endure a monumentally incompetent performance by the officials against Hall in MSG?

Marquette lost some weird ass games at the end of the season. Not sure it's all down to relying on Howard too much. Certainly not with the defense we witnessed. 

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #231 on: April 20, 2019, 09:17:30 PM »
Did anyone waych when Marcus wasnt in the game???
This team really struggled to score and even bring the ball up the court.
Political free board, plz leave your clever quips in your clever mind.

WarriorDad

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #232 on: April 21, 2019, 08:45:11 AM »
Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?

This is such a horrible comparison one can only surmise a poor effort at humor.  There could not be a poorer comparison.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #233 on: April 21, 2019, 08:49:15 AM »
Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?

Into your office's stash of laughing gas doc?

Even if every season was like Ellenson year he'd have more to hang his hat on  than dukiet.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

4everwarriors

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #234 on: April 21, 2019, 09:22:09 AM »
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #235 on: April 21, 2019, 09:24:48 AM »
This is such a horrible comparison one can only surmise a poor effort at humor.  There could not be a poorer comparison.
That’s just because Wojo can’t play the piano.

Galway Eagle

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #236 on: April 21, 2019, 09:37:54 AM »
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Then speak it.

97–69 Big East (or any chunk of three years of his) > 39–46 Independent

Wojo might never be better than what he is currently but in the absolute least he's on par with Deane
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #237 on: April 21, 2019, 10:09:37 AM »
Galway

At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.

Galway Eagle

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #238 on: April 21, 2019, 10:29:35 AM »
Galway

At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.

97–69 Big East seems at least on par with 100–55 in the Great Midwest/CUSA.  Both two tournament appearances, Wojo a better recruiter, Deane better XOs (from what I hear). I don't know what you're using to compare but it seems to like it's fair to say he's on par.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #239 on: April 21, 2019, 10:34:59 AM »
Galway

We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?

Galway Eagle

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #240 on: April 21, 2019, 10:51:57 AM »
Galway

We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?

I don't doubt that any of that is true however it did not happen or at least has not as of today. I am purely going off of on the court results and the results show me that they're pretty darn even and in the least Doc is using some major Hyperbole with the dukiet comparison.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #241 on: April 21, 2019, 11:02:24 AM »
Galway

I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.

What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.

Oregon Warrior

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #242 on: April 21, 2019, 11:10:17 AM »
Galway

We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?

Who are the other two? Anim and Morrow?

Galway Eagle

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #243 on: April 21, 2019, 11:15:15 AM »
Galway

I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.

What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.

If I had any knowledge of the background dealings perhaps I might be in agreement with you. But my insider knowledge is far less than the little club you guys seem to have.

I very much want sustained success as well not sure it's just an old timer thing, my first 5yrs of being a fan were the second greatest stretch in MU history, and I would very much like that to return.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

WarriorDad

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #244 on: April 21, 2019, 01:11:05 PM »
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Plato would ask what truth you are speaking. 

Dukiet compares in no way.  He lost to Fordham, Iona, Loyola.  Never beat Wisconsin to my recollection.  Had his team score 12 points against Notre Dame.  No NCAA berths.  Did this as an independent playing a sorry schedule.

“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

WarriorDad

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #245 on: April 21, 2019, 01:17:36 PM »
Galway

I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.

What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.

He has had better success than Deane.  Coach Deane did very little with his players.  Wojo has gone to two NCAA tournaments with basically only his players with a small exception.  Deane could not recruit.  Wojo can.

Wojo may not be the right person, but these comparisons by fellow old timers to some of our coaches is not earning any respect points.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #246 on: April 21, 2019, 01:26:41 PM »
WarriorDad

MU scored 12 points against ND?

As for comparisons to former coaches, I will wait until the Wojo era is over before making conclusions. That said, a lot will be based off condition he leaves program upon his departure. At this point, I believe there are a lot moving pieces at the moment.

MU82

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #247 on: April 21, 2019, 02:42:41 PM »

What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success.

Which is why several have repeatedly ripped Wojo for not signing a 1-and-done whom the precious Hausers didn't even want on the team? Huh? Which do folks want? Sustainable success or Herro-quick success?
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

-- Pope Francis

Goose

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #248 on: April 21, 2019, 02:49:53 PM »
MU 82
The signing of one and done is both a short and long term success. Continually signing top recruits feeds off of itself. To me, the long term success outweighs the short term. I really thought Wojo would build off the Henry signing, but things did not materialize.

brewcity77

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Re: What was Wojo's alternative?
« Reply #249 on: April 21, 2019, 02:50:42 PM »
Galway

We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?

I've heard some things that lead me to believe Wojo's reaction to the transfer has been better than the events that led to the transfer. I'm cautiously hoping that will help restore some of that trust. Also don't think anyone else will be leaving, though those were very real concerns. How Wojo handles the next season will be critical to his future & he should deliver on very high expectations if he's going to continue. I certainly feel better than I did a week ago when all this was becoming public.