Brendan vs Joey

[Fred Garvin]

Do you think Wojo simply thinks Brendan is better then Joey? Joey got pissed,parents got pissed,take brother with him.

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

Brendan has the potential to be a better player than Joey.   Joey is slow, turnover prone, and has not shown himself to be the elite recruit that he was touted to be. 

Joey actually nearly travels on almost every possession when he catches and starts his move to dribble.  Drove me crazy during the season.  He will be an average college level player nothing more. 

[D'Lo Brown]

Do you think Wojo simply thinks Brendan is better then Joey? Joey got pissed,parents got pissed,take brother with him.

Dude, they left for their own reasons. This is so illogical that it boggles the mind.

[bilsu]

Joey is not that bad, but I am a huge Bailey fan. I think Joey would not of started next year. Most likely Anim would of taken his spot assuming McEwen starts at point. Now with both Hausers gone both Anim and Bailey will start.

[Goose]

Great programs want both of them.

[PistolPete]

Joey is not that bad, but I am a huge Bailey fan. I think Joey would not of started next year. Most likely Anim would of taken his spot assuming McEwen starts at point. Now with both Hausers gone both Anim and Bailey will start.

Bailey's got his work cut out for him; He was poor from the floor, beyond the arc, and the stripe. I'd roll with Joey 7 days a week and twice on Sunday IF he wanted to be here, which he doesn't. So good luck to him and next man up.

[Silent Verbal]

Bailey never even crossed the minds of opposing coaches last year.  Teams were too worried about stopping Markus and the Hausers.  He’s got a long way to go to become a good college player.  Joey hit the wall in BE play, but I’d take him any day over Bailey.

[CTWarrior]

Joey is not that bad, but I am a huge Bailey fan. I think Joey would not of started next year. Most likely Anim would of taken his spot assuming McEwen starts at point. Now with both Hausers gone both Anim and Bailey will start.

I thought our best lineup next year with the Hausers on board would have been the one you mentioned (McEwen-Howard-Anim-Sam-John) with Joey first off the bench for Anim or his brother.  Of course that assumes McEwen is as good as we've been led to believe.

I'm not getting the Bailey more potential or better than Joey thing, though.  Bailey more athletic, but Joey much more skilled.  To me, prior to the Hauser news breaking, Bailey/Cain were the logical transfer candidates simply based on their situation.  Strictly from a situation POV, I think Bailey now has minutes readily available and no reason to transfer.  Frankly, I hope we get a true PF from somewhere (it seems like we are almost always short a true PF) and Bailey is not starting next year and is instead first off the bench at the 3 and 4, and then takes Anim's spot at the 3 his JR and SR seasons.

Besides shooting, the Hausers were good rebounders and we'll miss that as much as anything.

[Henry Sugar]

Great programs want both of them.

yeah, this.

MU may end up with neither, though.

[frozena pizza]

Brendan is probably better defensively.  But overall based on what we saw last year Joey is better and it's not really close.

[MU82]

MU may end up with neither, though.

I keep reading this, and I have learned in the last couple of days not to dismiss any speculation. However ...

Unless he really, really, really hates Wojo and/or Marquette, it makes absolutely no sense for him to leave now that 25-30 mpg will be plopped in his lap.

He turns 22 in 2 months. If he transfers and sits a year, he will be 23 before he begins his sophomore season and almost 26 when he'd be done as a senior. He waited all that time to get on the court, and now he's willing to sit out another year? Maybe he thinks he's already ready to play in Europe?

I dunno. Seems almost ridiculous that he would transfer unless he has irreconcilable differences with Wojo. Which he might.

[goldeneagle91114]

this board has a lot of people wearing blue and gold tinted glasses. If you want to know what those outside of the Marquette basketball community think, see Parrish's article below. We went from 7 to not even ranked in the top 25 +1. Please stop pretending w're better off without Sam and Joey.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2019-20-college-basketball-rankings-transfer-of-hauser-brothers-knocks-top-10-marquette-out-of-top-25-and-1/

[Class71]

Great programs want both of them.

 Clearly to the point.

[NavinRJohnson]

this board has a lot of people wearing blue and gold tinted glasses. If you want to know what those outside of the Marquette basketball community think, see Parrish's article below. We went from 7 to not even ranked in the top 25 +1. Please stop pretending w're better off without Sam and Joey.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2019-20-college-basketball-rankings-transfer-of-hauser-brothers-knocks-top-10-marquette-out-of-top-25-and-1/

There is a difference between pretending we're better off, and believing this is the end of the program as we know it. Haven't seen anyone doing the former. Have seen plenty doing the latter.

[lawdog77]

Brendan is probably better defensively.  But overall based on what we saw last year Joey is better and it's not really close.

Look at the last 7 games, the stats between them  are not that much different. Total points-Joe 59, Brendan 45. (in much less minutes)FG%-advantage Brendan, offensive rebounds, advantage Brendan. Defense (not sure how to quantify that, but the eye test shows Brendan)

[MU82]

There is a difference between pretending we're better off, and believing this is the end of the program as we know it. Haven't seen anyone doing the former. Have seen plenty doing the latter.

Many on the interwebs are extreme. Many sports fans are extreme. Combine the two ... extreme. Very little room for nuance, lots of "it's one or the other." So it's gotta be Brendan or Joey. It's gotta be Markus or Sam. It's gotta be Wojo or the Hausers. It can't be some of all of the above, because that's not extreme enough.

Of course we are not better off having lost the Hausers, as some have suggested ... just as we would not have been a better team this past season without Markus, as many stated. And of course the program will go on, though Wojo has his work cut out for him (to say the least) to keep us from fading into bolivian again.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

As it stands today, if I had to choose I'd take Joey.

How much were Brendan's struggles from the field rust?  His upside is undeniable and out of any player he seems like he could take a big leap next season.  Put on some muscle, take 500 jumpers a day, etc.  Maybe I'm just being hopeful because of yesterday was such a blow to the team but it's certainly possible. 

[BCHoopster]

Brendan is fine at the small forward but need a power forward to do some heavy lifting inside, if Wojo can pull that off this late in the season, then they will have
some depth.  It could be another back up center so you could put Theo and Morrow on the court at the same time.  Just need a body for 5 more fouls.

[Boozemon Barro]

Bailey has a much higher ceiling. He's way more athletic, which is something Joey will never be able to catch up to. Joey is much more skilled, but that's something Bailey can improve on.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Brendan is fine at the small forward but need a power forward to do some heavy lifting inside, if Wojo can pull that off this late in the season, then they will have
some depth.  It could be another back up center so you could put Theo and Morrow on the court at the same time.  Just need a body for 5 more fouls.

I just don't see any way you can have two guys with no range on the court at the same time for more than a minute or two. 

[bilsu]

I just don't see any way you can have two guys with no range on the court at the same time for more than a minute or two.

We would be better at rebounding and defense. Tell them, if they want to score to go get the offensive rebound.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

We would be better at rebounding and defense. Tell them, if they want to score to go get the offensive rebound.

It's not about them scoring.  It's about making the entire offense much easier to defend.  And that's what would happen if Ed and Theo are on the court together for any significant length of time. 

[Jay Bee]

Do you think Wojo simply thinks Brendan is better then Joey? Joey got pissed,parents got pissed,take brother with him.

Yes, that’s it. The aliens who abducted ZFB last night told him it was so while probing him.

Smh. That’s quite an imagination you have there.

[PVMagic]

Both have holes in their game.  Both are freshman (even if Bailey older).  Joey was better in the first half, I think Bailey was trending better in the second.  I think he's a good player, but did he get some benefit of the doubt this year because of his name?

[GooooMarquette]

this board has a lot of people wearing blue and gold tinted glasses.

I keep reading this and can only think...WTF DO YOU EXPECT on a Marquette hoops board?!?

[Otule's Glass Eye]

Joey is 2 years younger and easily better than Bailey, wake up people. Not a chance Wojo told Joey that Bailey is going to start over him.

[Coleman]

This team was much, much, better with the Hausers. It is insane to think otherwise.

That said, I don't think this is Hiroshima. Assuming no other shocks, this is still a tournament team, IMO. I wasn't a Bailey fan this year but incremental improvement from him and Cain and we will probably be ok, still a 6-9 seed.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

This team was much, much, better with the Hausers. It is insane to think otherwise.

That said, I don't think this is Hiroshima. Assuming no other shocks, this is still a tournament team, IMO. I wasn't a Bailey fan this year but incremental improvement from him and Cain and we will probably be ok, still a 6-9 seed.

That’s not good enough. With the Hausers we would have been. Can’t fathom how this was messed up this badly.

[PVMagic]

They won't, but this team could win the national title next year and we'd hear about how the margin of victory would have been more if not for Wojo running of the Hauser's.

[Pakuni]

This team was much, much, better with the Hausers. It is insane to think otherwise.

That said, I don't think this is Hiroshima. Assuming no other shocks, this is still a tournament team, IMO. I wasn't a Bailey fan this year but incremental improvement from him and Cain and we will probably be ok, still a 6-9 seed.

This is fair. May even be a better seed, depending on what we get out of Koby and Greg, and whether the staff has any success in the free agent market.

[Fred Garvin]

I want making a statement,merely asking a question.Bailey started before Joey at beginning season,and Joey's play down stretch wasn't great.All I know is that the Hausers did not like playing with Howard,and I got that from a person that talks to the Hausers all the time.

[brewcity77]

The upside to backup quarterback syndrome is that when the starter leaves, your inevitably find out if you were right. Guess we'll see how it works out.

[Jockey]

I just don't see any way you can have two guys with no range on the court at the same time for more than a minute or two.

Bailey will be a good 3 point shooter. 1st game of the year and it was either the second or third time down the floor. MU ran an off-ball screen to get Bailey  an open look from 3. You don't do that for a guy who can't shoot.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Great programs want both of them.

True.  But, as Al said, he was Marquette basketball.  He can replace discontented players at anytime.

[rocky_warrior]

Kinda OT, but...

Bailey was far worse than Joey at the beginning of the year.

Bailey was not as good as Joey at the end of the year, but made up a lot of ground (and Joey lost some).

I *think* by the time Joey can suit up again, Bailey will be a far better basketball player than Joey.  My opinion.

[Silent Verbal]

Kinda OT, but...

Bailey was far worse than Joey at the beginning of the year.

Bailey was not as good as Joey at the end of the year, but made up a lot of ground (and Joey lost some).

I *think* by the time Joey can suit up again, Bailey will be a far better basketball player than Joey.  My opinion.

I do not agree with this analysis.

[Jockey]

Kinda OT, but...

Bailey was far worse than Joey at the beginning of the year.

Bailey was not as good as Joey at the end of the year, but made up a lot of ground (and Joey lost some).

I *think* by the time Joey can suit up again, Bailey will be a far better basketball player than Joey.  My opinion.

I tend to agree. Brendan was coming off of a 2 year absence of competitive ball. Joey enrolled early and was able to practice before he ever played.

But I also think that Joey will be very good by his junior year.

[Dawson Rental]

I thought our best lineup next year with the Hausers on board would have been the one you mentioned (McEwen-Howard-Anim-Sam-John) with Joey first off the bench for Anim or his brother.  Of course that assumes McEwen is as good as we've been led to believe.

I'm not getting the Bailey more potential or better than Joey thing, though.  Bailey more athletic, but Joey much more skilled.  To me, prior to the Hauser news breaking, Bailey/Cain were the logical transfer candidates simply based on their situation.  Strictly from a situation POV, I think Bailey now has minutes readily available and no reason to transfer.  Frankly, I hope we get a true PF from somewhere (it seems like we are almost always short a true PF) and Bailey is not starting next year and is instead first off the bench at the 3 and 4, and then takes Anim's spot at the 3 his JR and SR seasons.

Besides shooting, the Hausers were good rebounders and we'll miss that as much as anything.

How about from inside the program?  Ed Morrow, Jr. is that guy.  The problem is then finding someone to back both him and theo up.

[MU82]

How about from inside the program?  Ed Morrow, Jr. is that guy.  The problem is then finding someone to back both him and theo up.

It would be quite a change, not just for Wojo but for all of college basketball, to simultaneously play two guys with a combined shooting range of 3 feet.

[Dawson Rental]

Many on the interwebs are extreme. Many sports fans are extreme. Combine the two ... extreme. Very little room for nuance, lots of "it's one or the other." So it's gotta be Brendan or Joey. It's gotta be Markus or Sam. It's gotta be Wojo or the Hausers. It can't be some of all of the above, because that's not extreme enough.

Of course we are not better off having lost the Hausers, as some have suggested ... just as we would not have been a better team this past season without Markus, as many stated. And of course the program will go on, though Wojo has his work cut out for him (to say the least) to keep us from fading into bolivian again.

Oh, stop with the hyberhole.  We may fall to Costa Rican, but no way do we fall all the way to Bolivian.

[MU82]

Oh, stop with the hyberhole.  We may fall to Costa Rican, but no way do we fall all the way to Bolivian.

"I don't know, man, I might just fade into Bolivian."

-- Mike Tyson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tLrIkPK8kg

[Dawson Rental]

It's not about them scoring.  It's about making the entire offense much easier to defend.  And that's what would happen if Ed and Theo are on the court together for any significant length of time.

You really think that it would be easy to defend the post against those two?  The defense will have to pack it in to block both from reaching the rim.

[lawdog77]

Kinda OT, but...

Bailey was far worse than Joey at the beginning of the year.

Bailey was not as good as Joey at the end of the year, but made up a lot of ground (and Joey lost some).

I *think* by the time Joey can suit up again, Bailey will be a far better basketball player than Joey.  My opinion.

+1000... and that is not revisionist history for me. I thought Bailey should have got alot more run during conference season.

[StillAWarrior]

You really think that it would be easy to defend the post against those two?  The defense will have to pack it in to block both from reaching the rim.

Well, until they both have to sit down with three fouls with approximately 13 minutes left in the first half; and again with about 17:15 left in the second after picking up their fourth.   

Just kidding...I love both of them.  But if they're going to play together, we're going to need reinforcements.

[Jockey]

You really think that it would be easy to defend the post against those two?  The defense will have to pack it in to block both from reaching the rim.

Would be nice if either was even average offensively.

[Jockey]

This team was much, much, better with the Hausers. It is insane to think otherwise.

That said, I don't think this is Hiroshima. Assuming no other shocks, this is still a tournament team, IMO. I wasn't a Bailey fan this year but incremental improvement from him and Cain and we will probably be ok, still a 6-9 seed.

"Better" enough to lose 6 of 7 when the games counted the most.

But I agree with your post - I expect to be in the Tournament next year.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

You really think that it would be easy to defend the post against those two?  The defense will have to pack it in to block both from reaching the rim.

Considering they're not especially effective offensively in the post at this point I don't think it would be a major concern of times. Maybe Theo keeps developing a better post game and Ed expands his range but I'll believe it when I see. And as mentioned above there are the concerns with foul trouble.

[rocket surgeon]

this board has a lot of people wearing blue and gold tinted glasses. If you want to know what those outside of the Marquette basketball community think, see Parrish's article below. We went from 7 to not even ranked in the top 25 +1. Please stop pretending w're better off without Sam and Joey.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2019-20-college-basketball-rankings-transfer-of-hauser-brothers-knocks-top-10-marquette-out-of-top-25-and-1/

what do they know?  they, as well as us, don't even know who is on our team right now, much less how good/bad we may be

[Marquetteauburn]

this board has a lot of people wearing blue and gold tinted glasses. If you want to know what those outside of the Marquette basketball community think, see Parrish's article below. We went from 7 to not even ranked in the top 25 +1. Please stop pretending w're better off without Sam and Joey.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2019-20-college-basketball-rankings-transfer-of-hauser-brothers-knocks-top-10-marquette-out-of-top-25-and-1/

Please quote the blogger who said Marquette was better off without Joey and Sam, unless you just made that up to win an argument with yourself.

On the flip side, anyone who says they would take Joey over Brendan any day of the week must have meant to say "any day of the week in November through January" because there is no way Joey played better than Brendan in February and March.

First just the objective summary of their offensive ratings from www.kenpom.com of every stat a player has on offense.

National average 104.3
Joey was bad in February and March, totaling a 97 that would not start for many teams.
Brendan was a 112, very good and enough to start for even most very strong teams.
Notice I am not saying I am glad Joey is gone. He was phenomenal through January and I thought he might be Big East rookie of the year, and despite him dropping several hundred spots in www.valueaddbasketball.com those last two months, he still calculated as the 4th best freshman in the Big East. But in February and March he was bad.

I don't have a way to break down turnover percentage by game, but for the year Brendan turned the ball over 6.3% of the time. If he had enough minutes played, that would rank him as the 4th best player in the country - tied with Teske of Michigan and protecting the ball. I don't need to belabor the turnover machine that Joey became after he hit the wall, but for a player with no duty to handle the ball except when you get it to put up a shot or back someone into the basket, turning it over 22% of the time for the whole year is really bad.

Joey's shooting also disappeared the last two months and Brendan's arrived. Joey hit just 40% of his 2-pointers in February and March, and Brendan hit 56%. Joey hit 32% of threes, but Brendan hit 29%. Yes Brendan was a free throw nightmare, but Joey fell off to 66% after being in the top 5 in the Big East.

Of course, all this would be fine if the defensive play was reversed and Joey was a great defensive stopper and Brendan was a liability, but I don't see how you would have watched the final two months of the season.

My most common nightmare ever sense then has been the countless times I saw an opposing team throw the ball somewhere near the key for an easy open three-pointers and see Joey breaking so late that he was several feet away when the ball was released to arc in for another 3. He just couldn't get to the spot, or keep track of his many or something.

The blocked shots and steals are obviously limited in what they measure, but the fact that Joey played 58% more minutes than Brendan and registered one blocked shot and two steals while Brandan had 4 and 5.

Obviously Anim was the defensive stopper, but Brendan was always assigned to the best offensive player. The overall defensive gap was huge in most aspects. However, Joey really is a strong defensive rebounder and that is where he will be missed. I don't believe it makes up for having a stopper on defense like Bailey, but of course I'd love the option of subbing in Joey for Bailey if we were facing two 6-foot-10 players crashing the boards against us.

So in summary, note that neither I - or any other Marquette fan I know of - is proposing that the team would be better with Sam and Joey. The only claims I've heard that ridiculous was the suggestion that the team might have been better than Markus.

I view Sam as almost Markus equal. He is the smartest basketball player I have ever talked too as far as understanding every aspect of what is happening on the court. I could see Joey watching Virginia intently during the Final 4 and realizing that both he and his little brother and their incredible abilities and beautiful jump shots would prosper better in a system like Bennett runs with that deliberate pace of finding that spot for a beautiful shot.

But if your question is whether or not Brendan or Joey was a better player at MARQUETTE in FEBRUARY and MARCH of 2019, I don't believe it was close. It was Brendan and I hope it carries over.

If I see Sam hit a game-winning shot in a huge March Madness game for someone else in 2021  all I will see is that pretty jumper leaving his hand to complete the comeback against #1 Villanova after I brought a friend from Auburn to see the game with me and the shot leaving his hand at Creighton, and if he gets to then celebrate that moment with his little brother who has lived up to his potential in another system I am happy for them. However, if any of this happens against Marquette forget everything else in this paragraph.

But for now, great final two months of the season Brendan and I believe you and Cain can do great things with the extra minutes.

[CTWarrior]

Considering they're not especially effective offensively in the post at this point I don't think it would be a major concern of times. Maybe Theo keeps developing a better post game and Ed expands his range but I'll believe it when I see. And as mentioned above there are the concerns with foul trouble.

Due to recent developments Ed is now my favorite MU player.  That guy works his tail off on the floor.  But I wouldn't want to see both him and Theo on the floor together.  Can't get good spacing with both of them on the floor and one of them will be facing a total mismatch on the defensive end of the floor pretty much at all times.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Due to recent developments Ed is now my favorite MU player.  That guy works his tail off on the floor.  But I wouldn't want to see both him and Theo on the floor together.  Can't get good spacing with both of them on the floor and one of them will be facing a total mismatch on the defensive end of the floor pretty much at all times.

Dodd’s did an interview with he revealed why he got so much stronger as the season progressed. It was interesting as I didn’t know he was so limited for such a long period. 

[withoutbias]

Due to recent developments Ed is now my favorite MU player.  That guy works his tail off on the floor.  But I wouldn't want to see both him and Theo on the floor together.  Can't get good spacing with both of them on the floor and one of them will be facing a total mismatch on the defensive end of the floor pretty much at all times.

what were the recent developments? just that ed came to mu hoping to play the 4 and get major minutes and shots but is sticking around despite getting none of those things to go his way, while the hausers are leaving town because their letter writing campaign didnt land them more shots? or did i miss something about ed that came out recently?

[THRILLHO]

Kinda OT, but...

Bailey was far worse than Joey at the beginning of the year.

Bailey was not as good as Joey at the end of the year, but made up a lot of ground (and Joey lost some).

I *think* by the time Joey can suit up again, Bailey will be a far better basketball player than Joey.  My opinion.

And Bailey's biggest weakness is that the game is moving a bit too fast, something that happens to lots of freshmen and they don't always get the chance to play their way out of it. Allegedly he shoots pretty well in practice, I have to believe that's the case given the green light he seemed to have in games. I expect to see big improvement with a year of seasoning and more of a leash with the short bench.

Joey's biggest weaknesses were that he was unathletic and slow, and he didn't seem to be especially good shape. Maybe he just needs a full healthy offseason to work on his body and get into great shape, but my biggest worry for him was that he didn't have the drive that Markus and Sam seem to. That's harder to improve.

[D'Lo Brown]

Due to recent developments Ed is now my favorite MU player.  That guy works his tail off on the floor.  But I wouldn't want to see both him and Theo on the floor together.  Can't get good spacing with both of them on the floor and one of them will be facing a total mismatch on the defensive end of the floor pretty much at all times.

IMO, I have at least some hope for Theo developing into an offensive threat in certain spots. I don't feel the same about Morrow, and that's perfectly ok, but I just think offensively he is going to be cleaning up the trash with a dunk or two. At some point, Theo is going to put it together and learn how to use his mass in perhaps a Davante-like way. And I think his back-to-the-basket game is close to being a realistic threat.

Anyways, my point is that I don't think it absolutely precludes us from playing both together. We already have two offense-first ball handlers. It might be different if we were still playing Derrick.

[Jay Bee]

At some point, Theo is going to put it together and learn how to use his mass in perhaps a Davante-like way.

No.