Poll:Let’s stop beating around the bush

[cheebs09]

It’s interesting the expectations piece. He’s more or less met expectations each year, but is it a problem that the expectations is bubble team in Year 3 and NIT in Year 4. I know there were some issues with the team he inherited.

It’s great he meets expectations, but should we be at a point where the expectations are higher. After burning off some steam, I’m definitely in the keep Wojo camp. But I hope he’s not sitting on a cool throne and there is a bit of heat on him.

[Warrior_2002]

The basketball teams under Wojo have met my personal expectations every year.   Those expectations are based on my assessment of the relative talent of the players and the schedule.    And Wojo has run a clean program for the last 5 years.     Hard to run a coach with 3 20 win seasons in 5 years without a whiff of scandal.

My concerns are as I have stated before.    I have not seen magic/alchemy from him.    I have yet to see him make a team better than the sum of its parts.    What makes that worse is that I have not yet seen him get a team without significant weaknesses.    A team that has Duke-like talent doesn't HAVE to be more than the sum of its parts.    A team without that kind of talent does.   

This year, MU put out a team with:   one true guard, who had to play the point, though his skill set is that of a SG, but not the size.
A SG who was a decent but not all world defender, and erratic offensively
Two brothers at forward who had decent size, but were lacking speed. (IMO, partially due to rehabbing injuries.   Neither is a blazer, but I think they will be quicker next year.)
A second year 6'9 center who discovered blocking shots is fun, with a developing offensive game.
A grad transfer guard who flopped, leaving little guard depth or options.
A 6'6 back up center.
A freshman forward with two years of rust on his jump shot who did a lot of things right, except for the one thing he was noted for coming out of high school two years ago.
A sophomore forward who did not progress from his freshman year. 
Matt Heldt.

The team accomplished all it could with that particular set of talent and circumstances. 

I miss the Buzz alchemy.   I miss having a coach turn a weakness into a virtue.    I miss the teams playing with a chip on their shoulder and punching above their weight.     But that ship has sailed.   

I like about 70% of Wojo.   I like the recruiting.   I like how he represents Marquette.   I want that last 30%.    I want him to grow as a game coach.    I want him to find creative uses for his entire roster.    I want a 11 man rotation, not a Duke-like 7 man rotation. 


I still think he can get there.

Very well said and exactly my thoughts.  Realizing over the last couple days I’ve overreacted as I had a hard time defending Wojo to friends that have been off his wagon for over a year now mostly due to his lack of in game adjustments.  I was fuming over the lack of adjustments against MSU and couldn’t take it.  I’m about where you are tower.  That 30% in me that I don’t like gets the best of me when I’m ready to move on but technically he met my expectations.  But man that lack of rising above deficiencies and in game adjustments just gets me fuming.  I’ll hang on for another year and that’s inevitable but man Wojo himself better improve because the talent of this team should’ve won the big east and should be in the sweet 16.

[Goose]

Tower
Great post.

[PBRme]

I think a healthy Greg Elliott changes the calculus at guard.  He was good enough as a freshman playing one handed that there were those clamoring for him to start in place of Markus or Rowsey.  He averaged over 18 mpg.   With two good hands and assuming that Wojo was telling the truth that he was playing well enough to start before he was injured, how nice would it have been to have a 6'3 guard able to play 20 competent minutes a game?    I think Sam and Joey were still recovering from surgeries and were both a step slow from what they can be.   I think Brendan Bailey with a jump shot that went in during games would have changed overall line ups and rotation.    I accept that the offensive game of big men is a process.   

I thought that Wojo should have force fed Jamal and Matt more minutes early.    I think he shortened his rotation too soon.    But, just because I, a schmo on the internet, disagree with a rotational philosophy does not mean the man should be fired.

Agree 100% with this

[wadesworld]

Glad to see you can use words.  Since when is being refered to as a millenial a personal attack?
Is being refered to as a post war babby boomer a personal attack?

Ageism.  There's no place for that here.

[Markusquette]

Keep letting him see a full recruiting class through. If haanif Tracy and Henry (on top of Anim and Heldt) were all still seniors this year and we had worse results I'd say fire.

Imagine if we had them on the squad. Traci Carter alone would have been a welcomed addition this year.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Spot on, Tower.

I'll add that Wojo hasn't had a player who can make their teammates better.   Wade, Diener, James, even Cadougan with his timely passing, are all examples.

I'm hoping Symir Torrence can be that kind of player.  Someone that can breakdown a defense off the dribble.  Kick out to Joey for open 3's; feed Theo rolling to the rim for easy dunks; create a good look when the defense shuts down the scripted set play.

That kind of player will lead Marquette to even bigger success and make Wojo a better coach.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Imagine if we had them on the squad. Traci Carter alone would have been a welcomed addition this year.

Traci didn't have a great year for LaSalle.  Stats nearly identical to his freshman year at Marquette.  A quicker, smaller, worse shooting Chartouny.

[21rooster]

For those that have a strong twitter following, these survey results would be a pretty interesting share.  If you search #wojo, you would think our entire fan base is trying to run him out if town.  It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation. 

[Marcus92]

I think everyone here wants the same thing. Namely, Marquette competing for and winning a second national title.

So is Wojo the right coach to get us there?

What winning coaches look like
NCAA appearances and high seeds aren't the end goal. But they are a key measure of progress and success along the way. It's worth considering that only 8 current Division I head coaches have won a national title:

Mike Krzyzewski (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, 2015)
Roy Williams (2005, 2009, 2017)
Jay Wright (2016, 2018)
Jim Boeheim (2003)
John Calipari (2012)
Tom Izzo (2000)
Bill Self (2008)
Tubby Smith (1998)

On average, they won their first national championship in their 16th season as a head coach. It took Boeheim 27 years. Wright 22 years. Calipari 20 years. And all of them except Williams have had first-round exits from the NCAA tournament. Jay Wright, in fact, has lost in the first round 5 times. What they had in common up to that point was making the tournament often, and earning high seeds.

What winning programs look like
Here are the 11 Division I programs that have earned NCAA bids each of the past 3 seasons, while averaging better than a 5 seed:

North Carolina - 2017 (1 seed), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Duke - 2017 (2), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Gonzaga - 2017 (1), 2018 (4), 2019 (1)
Kansas - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (4)
Virginia - 2017 (5), 2018 (1), 2019 (1)
Villanova - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (6)
Kentucky - 2017 (2), 2018 (5), 2019 (2)
Purdue - 2017 (4), 2018 (2), 2019 (3)
Michigan - 2017 (7), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)
Florida St. - 2017 (3), 2018 (9), 2019 (4)
Michigan St. - 2017 (9), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)

Notice anything? Williams at NC, Coach K at Duke, Self at Kansas, Wright at Nova, Calipari at UK, Izzo at MSU. Six of the 8 coaches who've won a national title are on this list. What that tells me is NCAA appearances and seeding count. (And that Mark Few and Tony Bennett are the most likely candidates to celebrate their first national title).

What's that got to do with Wojo?
Obviously, MU isn't there yet. And honestly, chances are Wojo won't be a Hall of Fame coach like Coach K. However...

When you look at the records of successful coaches early in their careers -- not just one individual coach, but a broad cross-spectrum of them -- Wojo's first 5 seasons compare favorably. You might believe he should have accomplished more. But history suggests that not many coaches do.

To the argument about winning zero NCAA games, I call bulls**t. Hugely disappointing? Yes. Meaningful? Not likely. No statistician would call 2 NCAA games anything close to a reliable data set. It's 2 data points. How can you judge anything based on that, compared to a season's worth of games? With almost all of this team coming back, the bad loss to Murray State could motivate them even more for next season.

I believe Marquette isn't far from joining the ranks of those 11 programs listed above. Like many here, I have big concerns about how the season ended. But MU has still appeared in 2 of the past 3 NCAA tournaments and earned a better seed each time. If that progress continues next season (winning the Big East and earning a 3 seed or better), I'll feel even more confident that we're on the right path.

Keep Wojo.

[NickelDimer]

I think the silent majority claim is being way overblown. While there’s been a ton of frustration vented about Wojo, very few have insisted he should be fired. Most, even the most vocally frustrated have acknowledged he deserves at least another year

[Cheeks]

For those that have a strong twitter following, these survey results would be a pretty interesting share.  If you search #wojo, you would think our entire fan base is trying to run him out if town.  It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation.

Unfortunately that is the nature of Twitter.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ageism.  There's no place for that here.

Legally speaking ageism only works up. You must be over 40 years old in order to claim age discrimination. Legally, you can't claim you are being discriminated against for being young.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tower and Marcus. Spot on. Summed up a lot of what I've been trying to say poorly for the past few days.

[GOO]

I think everyone here wants the same thing. Namely, Marquette competing for and winning a second national title.

So is Wojo the right coach to get us there?

What winning coaches look like
NCAA appearances and high seeds aren't the end goal. But they are a key measure of progress and success along the way. It's worth considering that only 8 current Division I head coaches have won a national title:

Mike Krzyzewski (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, 2015)
Roy Williams (2005, 2009, 2017)
Jay Wright (2016, 2018)
Jim Boeheim (2003)
John Calipari (2012)
Tom Izzo (2000)
Bill Self (2008)
Tubby Smith (1998)

On average, they won their first national championship in their 16th season as a head coach. It took Boeheim 27 years. Wright 22 years. Calipari 20 years. And all of them except Williams have had first-round exits from the NCAA tournament. Jay Wright, in fact, has lost in the first round 5 times. What they had in common up to that point was making the tournament often, and earning high seeds.

What winning programs look like
Here are the 11 Division I programs that have earned NCAA bids each of the past 3 seasons, while averaging better than a 5 seed:

North Carolina - 2017 (1 seed), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Duke - 2017 (2), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Gonzaga - 2017 (1), 2018 (4), 2019 (1)
Kansas - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (4)
Virginia - 2017 (5), 2018 (1), 2019 (1)
Villanova - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (6)
Kentucky - 2017 (2), 2018 (5), 2019 (2)
Purdue - 2017 (4), 2018 (2), 2019 (3)
Michigan - 2017 (7), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)
Florida St. - 2017 (3), 2018 (9), 2019 (4)
Michigan St. - 2017 (9), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)

Notice anything? Williams at NC, Coach K at Duke, Self at Kansas, Wright at Nova, Calipari at UK, Izzo at MSU. Six of the 8 coaches who've won a national title are on this list. What that tells me is NCAA appearances and seeding count. (And that Mark Few and Tony Bennett are the most likely candidates to celebrate their first national title).

What's that got to do with Wojo?
Obviously, MU isn't there yet. And honestly, chances are Wojo won't be a Hall of Fame coach like Coach K. However...

When you look at the records of successful coaches early in their careers -- not just one individual coach, but a broad cross-spectrum of them -- Wojo's first 5 seasons compare favorably. You might believe he should have accomplished more. But history suggests that not many coaches do.

To the argument about winning zero NCAA games, I call bulls**t. Hugely disappointing? Yes. Meaningful? Not likely. No statistician would call 2 NCAA games anything close to a reliable data set. It's 2 data points. How can you judge anything based on that, compared to a season's worth of games? With almost all of this team coming back, the bad loss to Murray State could motivate them even more for next season.

I believe Marquette isn't far from joining the ranks of those 11 programs listed above. Like many here, I have big concerns about how the season ended. But MU has still appeared in 2 of the past 3 NCAA tournaments and earned a better seed each time. If that progress continues next season (winning the Big East and earning a 3 seed or better), I'll feel even more confident that we're on the right path.

Keep Wojo.

Wow.  Now that is a great post with backing and perspective. Thanks.   A nice counterbalance to the overly emotional entitled crowd.

[muguru]

I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

[willie warrior]

I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

The excuses for Wojo will not stop next year either. You nailed it in this post.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".

No one is saying that. We are saying this year was good and we want more.

There is wisdom in the 5 years to judge mantra. But its not "look back on the past 5 years" and judge its "look what he's built in year 5" and judge. In year 5 Wojo has built a program able to get a top 5 seed despite an epic collapse and has a foundation to build on that success.

[Herman Cain]

I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

I agree with this analysis.

[jesmu84]

I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo.

Year 5 is done. And some of us have judged Wojo. And that judgment is good, positive, sustainable success.

[Cheeks]

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

You do realize if Oregon doesn't win their tournament, they are in the NIT...right? Because they didn't do what was needed all year long, but got in at the end.  It's also why you don't want a 5 seed, because the 12's can be those hot teams from big conferences that only got in because they won their tournament.  You also realize that we beat Oregon handily last year....Wojo vs Dana.  In other words, we've had the athletes and players to go up against some of these teams and win, whether it is Louisville, Oregon, Nova, K State or others.

Here's what 5 years tells you Guru, that we don't have someone that is incapable.  We have someone capable....now whether they are capable enough is a legitimate question, but certainly capable of doing well, getting to the tournament, performing at a high level most of the time.

[Badgerhater]

It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation.

I am one of the 84 percent and I found the selection between Bad Choice A and Bad Choice B to be as horrible as the 2016 election.  Right now Wojo is not bad enough to fire but not good enough to keep around—the paralyzing tyranny of mediocrity.

[Loose Cannon]

Really?  Wasn't Herman the guy that made up BS about a recruiting visit and then got called out by Big Daddy?  I guess you guys just run in the same circles.

Was that "Q"?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I am one of the 84 percent and I found the selection between Bad Choice A and Bad Choice B to be as horrible as the 2016 election.  Right now Wojo is not bad enough to fire but not good enough to keep around—the paralyzing tyranny of mediocrity.

So if you are AD—option C—ensure the succession plan is ready. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Tower and Marcus. Spot on. Summed up a lot of what I've been trying to say poorly for the past few days.

+1

Can't wait till next season. I have had so many great personal memories from this past season (sans the past three weeks).  We all want to same thing but the reality is our depth of frustration at season's end was built on the overjoy of what came before it. 

Being in love sucks when there is a sudden break-up at the end...but boy was the fling and wild wojo along the way worth it.