Next year's starting lineup

[NickelDimer]

Not only is it painfully obvious how much athleticism we lacked, but watching how these teams actually move on offense exposes just how much standing around we did.

[MU82]

The more NCAA games I watch, the more disgusted I get. After watching ball for two straight days, we are a long way from being ready to be late into March. Hopes for next year match this year’s performance.

Goose, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you state multiple times that you think both Hausers are NBA material and that Joey might only be one year away from being a college star?

Are you now saying that either 1. You badly overstated how good Sam and Joey are ... or ... 2. A team with (at least) 2 future NBA players isn't talented enough to compete for a S16 berth?

We went to the E8 with a team that featured the much reviled Junior at PG, a 5 who couldn't jump high enough to touch the net, a career underachiever at the wing, a much-criticized role player in Lockett at the other wing, and Vander, who after 2 years many thought would never be an offensive contributor.

Aside from Vander and Wilson, that team was damn unathletic.

Now, that team did have Buzz as the coach, and few if anybody here would claim that Wojo has been a better coach than Buzz, but that's not what you are saying here anyway. You are talking about talent and athletic ability.

Seriously, if you look at the talent and athletic ability of the 2012-13 team and compare it to the talent and athletic ability of this team, is this team SO much less talented and athletic that it has absolutely no prayer to accomplish something similar to what that team did?

Even with the NBA-bound Hausers, one of the top scorers in the country, and some decent defense-minded role players?

And even though you say there are only a handful of very good teams in the entire nation, you're also saying we can't be a "good" (albeit not "very good") S16 team?

Interesting.

[Galway Eagle]

rocky

Some folks on here have been watching for awhile and might actually have a different opinion than yours. I respect your opinion, why the need to get your nose out of joint if someone is not in agreement with you view of the program? The last three weeks mean nothing to me, the last five years do. If you find it amusing to throw jabs my way, go for it.  With all due respect, I very much appreciate the work you and the mods do, but aside from jabs, what do you bring to the discussions on here?

Couldn't the argument that pretty much every one of us brings next to nothing? Sure yours and some other older posters' old Al stories are cute but have no reflection on today so really there's a couple stat heads, a couple people following AAU ball religiously, there was one true insider and that was the extent of posters that bring anything tangible to the board.

[Goose]

Galway

No doubt on your post. Was more teasing rocky, than anything else. It seems that he adds a fair amount of one liners that might be in jest or not. I would actually say that no one really adds any insight of anything meaningful on here. It is a place that we vent, celebrate, complain and whatever emotion we care to share.

I come to scoop every day because I like talking with others whom I believe love the program. Have not learned a whole lot of inside scoop on here over the years, but still enjoy it. Just curious, who is that one true insider?

[Galway Eagle]

Galway

No doubt on your post. Was more teasing rocky, than anything else. It seems that he adds a fair amount of one liners that might be in jest or not. I would actually say that no one really adds any insight of anything meaningful on here. It is a place that we vent, celebrate, complain and whatever emotion we care to share.

I come to scoop every day because I like talking with others whom I believe love the program. Have not learned a whole lot of inside scoop on here over the years, but still enjoy it. Just curious, who is that one true insider?

Me of course! I kid, it was Big Daddy 83

[jesmu84]

Galway

No doubt on your post. Was more teasing rocky, than anything else. It seems that he adds a fair amount of one liners that might be in jest or not. I would actually say that no one really adds any insight of anything meaningful on here. It is a place that we vent, celebrate, complain and whatever emotion we care to share.

I come to scoop every day because I like talking with others whom I believe love the program. Have not learned a whole lot of inside scoop on here over the years, but still enjoy it. Just curious, who is that one true insider?

Big daddy.

But people ran him off out of jealousy.

[NotAnAlum]

Butler went to the final game a couple years with a line up that was less athletic than any of those proposed for next years MU team.  You do need a coach who can design a game plan that maximizes his team's advantages.  But pure athleticism isn't the only way to win.
I think this MU team could have still been playing against the current field IF we had an offense that created open looks for teammates and played fundamentally sound defense.

[Goose]

MU 82

As I stated in another thread, I do think Wojo has put together some of the pieces of a nice team. I just do not think that the pieces compliment each other very well due to a lack of a coaching philosophy. IMO the Hauser's are very, very good college basketball players and one or both will likely play in the NBA. Aside from Hausers and Howard, this time has complimentary players that all fit into a different style system.

Sacar could be a great fit for a Buzz team. He plays hard D, a slasher and tough kid. Theo and Morrow are guys that would likely fit in well with a program with a slow it down half court offense. Hell, Cain could be a solid contributor on a system that tries to create mismatches by utilizing only athleticism. Hell again, Matt Heldt could possibly have been a very nice role player for the Badgers this season. IMO, the pieces of Wojo's puzzle do not fit together.

While I happen to think you are underestimating the E8 talent and athleticism, you in a way prove my point. It was a group of guys that bought into a coaching philosophy and knew their roles. I watch our half court offense and question if 2-3 on the court know what they are supposed to be doing.

[Goose]

Galway

I wish BD would post again and share his insight and thoughts. Curious on what side of the aisle BD would land.

[NickelDimer]

Butler went to the final game a couple years with a line up that was less athletic than any of those proposed for next years MU team.  You do need a coach who can design a game plan that maximizes his team's advantages.  But pure athleticism isn't the only way to win.
I think this MU team could have still been playing against the current field IF we had an offense that created open looks for teammates and played fundamentally sound defense.

I think this is pretty true. Our offense didn’t have nearly enough movement or ball movement. Lots of standing around watching Markus and when they’d screen and roll or cut Markus couldn’t get them the back without turning it over too often

[Silkk the Shaka]

With the assumption that Markus goes pro, here's what I'd like to see

PG: Torrence - 6'3" long wingsapn, reputationally a lock-down defender and good passer. Give him the keys, let him run the show for 4 years, hopefully primed to hit the ground running the next year with a stellar 2020 class.
2G: McEwen - 6'4" playmaker/slasher. Will desperately need his type of game with Markus gone, hopefully with a significantly lower usage rate.
SF: Sam - no-brainer of all no-brainers
PF: Joey - historically the biggest jump is frosh to soph, I'm expecting a big leap forward, one of the best floor spacers in the nation
C: Theo - win the tip, establish the interior defense

Heavy rotation:
*Sacar at the 3 (when Sam sits and also when Sam slides to the 4 when Joey sits; veteran defender/stabilizer capable of hitting a big open three or slashing, whatever the defense is giving)
*Elliott at 2 when McEwen sits and also when McEwen slides to PG when Torrence sits; emergency PG)
*Bailey at the 3/4 for energy/defense, hopefully improve the three-ball like Sacar over the off-season
*Morrow at 5 (possibly even more minutes than Theo but I like him better as energy/game changer off the bench)

With experience, depth, skill, athleticism, length, and versatility, that is a BEast champion & 2-seed type roster.

Wojo has met pre-season KenPom expectations almost exactly to a T every year aside from 2016.

2015: Pre 87 / Post 93
2016: Pre 53 / Post 97
2017: Pre 47 / Post 32
2018: Pre 49 / Post 53
2019: Pre 29 / Post 32

That's really all he needs to do next year with the hand he has dealt himself (it is a very impressive hand I might add). Hope he is up to the task!

[Galway Eagle]

Galway

I wish BD would post again and share his insight and thoughts. Curious on what side of the aisle BD would land.

Me and you both

[RushmoreAcademy]

I would actually say that no one really adds any insight of anything meaningful on here.

Post of the year.  Shut it down. Give out the award now.

[MU82]

MU 82

As I stated in another thread, I do think Wojo has put together some of the pieces of a nice team. I just do not think that the pieces compliment each other very well due to a lack of a coaching philosophy. IMO the Hauser's are very, very good college basketball players and one or both will likely play in the NBA. Aside from Hausers and Howard, this time has complimentary players that all fit into a different style system.

Sacar could be a great fit for a Buzz team. He plays hard D, a slasher and tough kid. Theo and Morrow are guys that would likely fit in well with a program with a slow it down half court offense. Hell, Cain could be a solid contributor on a system that tries to create mismatches by utilizing only athleticism. Hell again, Matt Heldt could possibly have been a very nice role player for the Badgers this season. IMO, the pieces of Wojo's puzzle do not fit together.

While I happen to think you are underestimating the E8 talent and athleticism, you in a way prove my point. It was a group of guys that bought into a coaching philosophy and knew their roles. I watch our half court offense and question if 2-3 on the court know what they are supposed to be doing.

This sounds like more of a coaching issue than a talent/athleticism issue.

That's cool if you feel this way, and it's hard  for even a Wojo defender like me to say the results prove you wrong.

But again, this team, with McEwen and Elliott replacing Heldt, and with Bailey and  future NBAer Joey improved, would seem to be plenty athletic and talented enough to at least have a chance at some March success rather than the zero chance you allow for.

[Goose]

MU 82
The talent at MU currently needs to be coached up big time. Either get much better talent or do better job of coaching talent recruited. I prefer upgrade of talent, but sign me up for better coaching if that is what it takes.

[muwarrior69]

MU 82
The talent at MU currently needs to be coached up big time. Either get much better talent or do better job of coaching talent recruited. I prefer upgrade of talent, but sign me up for better coaching if that is what it takes.

I agree with that big time. I think where Wojo has failed is to get his players to play as a team. Like you say he does not seem to have a system. Perhaps it is because the players he has cannot execute that system and that in part is on him.

[Goose]

Warrior69

In defense of Wojo, I think he has chased after right guys and likely Wojo system guys. Problem is, he has missed out on the whales and ended up taking guys that do not have the skill sets needed. I have said many times, I love Wojo chasing the whales. Just wish Plan B were better fitting pieces.

[Golden Avalanche]

I agree with that big time. I think where Wojo has failed is to get his players to play as a team. Like you say he does not seem to have a system. Perhaps it is because the players he has cannot execute that system and that in part is on him.

This team went 20-2 over a three month stretch in the heart of the season.

Was that 90 day stretch a failure to get his players to play as a team?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Warrior69

In defense of Wojo, I think he has chased after right guys and likely Wojo system guys. Problem is, he has missed out on the whales and ended up taking guys that do not have the skill sets needed. I have said many times, I love Wojo chasing the whales. Just wish Plan B were better fitting pieces.

Agreed, he runs a star/stud system that can definitely succeed over time if he starts landing them with consistency. There are big fish to be had in the 2020 class and I think 2 or more are required in order to avoid a downturn in on-court performance and potential vicious circle in recruiting.

In a warped way Markus leaving early (and getting drafted) could be be the best thing possible for the future of the program even if the on-court ceiling isn't necessarily as high next season, as it would give a guy like Burnett tangible evidence that he could shine in the MU system and reach his ultimate career goal.

[mu03eng]

There was good discussion on twitter around this topic and I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that Wojo either by choice or lack thereof (Chartouney bombing and Elliot redshirting) maxed out Howard's minutes and the offense was generally: 15 seconds of try something and then if that doesn't work out give it to Markus to create. When we were winning (prior to Markus getting tired/hurt) it was because Markus was able to deliver in the doesn't work out stage which we found ourselves in a lot. Once Markus worn down he just wasn't hitting the same shots and we didn't have anyone who could consistently deliver off the bounce.

So whatever next year's line-up is, for us to be successful long term, it needs to see Markus playing about 4 minutes less a game on average and also feature at least a second player who can create off the bounce. I'm guessing that will be Koby, some Greg, and a more aggressive Sacar.

Side note, Torrence only reclassifies if Markus goes pro....no way he's coming into a guard log jam with Markus still on the roster.

[GoldenEagle323]

There was good discussion on twitter around this topic and I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that Wojo either by choice or lack thereof (Chartouney bombing and Elliot redshirting) maxed out Howard's minutes and the offense was generally: 15 seconds of try something and then if that doesn't work out give it to Markus to create. When we were winning (prior to Markus getting tired/hurt) it was because Markus was able to deliver in the doesn't work out stage which we found ourselves in a lot. Once Markus worn down he just wasn't hitting the same shots and we didn't have anyone who could consistently deliver off the bounce.

So whatever next year's line-up is, for us to be successful long term, it needs to see Markus playing about 4 minutes less a game on average and also feature at least a second player who can create off the bounce. I'm guessing that will be Koby, some Greg, and a more aggressive Sacar.

Side note, Torrence only reclassifies if Markus goes pro....no way he's coming into a guard log jam with Markus still on the roster.

At the beginning of the year me and my friend went to the open practice and we both thought that Kobe was the best player on the floor by far, hopefully he is as advertised when i saw him play

[MU82]

There was good discussion on twitter around this topic and I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that Wojo either by choice or lack thereof (Chartouney bombing and Elliot redshirting) maxed out Howard's minutes and the offense was generally: 15 seconds of try something and then if that doesn't work out give it to Markus to create. When we were winning (prior to Markus getting tired/hurt) it was because Markus was able to deliver in the doesn't work out stage which we found ourselves in a lot. Once Markus worn down he just wasn't hitting the same shots and we didn't have anyone who could consistently deliver off the bounce.

So whatever next year's line-up is, for us to be successful long term, it needs to see Markus playing about 4 minutes less a game on average and also feature at least a second player who can create off the bounce. I'm guessing that will be Koby, some Greg, and a more aggressive Sacar.

Side note, Torrence only reclassifies if Markus goes pro....no way he's coming into a guard log jam with Markus still on the roster.

I like this thesis lot, mu03.

[MU82]

MU 82
The talent at MU currently needs to be coached up big time. Either get much better talent or do better job of coaching talent recruited. I prefer upgrade of talent, but sign me up for better coaching if that is what it takes.

OK, Goose. I guess I know a little better how you feel about this now.

All I know is that, as Golden Avalanche said, "This team went 20-2 over a three month stretch in the heart of the season."

I know you have vacillated between our opponents were "not very good" to our schedule being "$hit," but the selection committee certainly didn't find anything wrong with a schedule that included a BEast round robin, K-State, Kansas, LVille, Buffalo, Indiana and Wisconsin. Strength of schedule was not this team's problem.

We take the team that went 20-2, add two seemingly athletic players in McEwen and Elliott, subtract probably the last athletic (and least talented) player in Heldt as well as a nonathletic nonentity in JCS, plus see continued improvement in our returning players ... and we come to a team that you say still can't win an NCAA tournament game but one that I believe can and will win multiple NCAA tourney games.

And that's cool. We're allowed to have different opinions, and neither of us will be proven "right" for 12 months. I'll leave this rest now. We each know where the other stands. Have a great day.