Program trajectory and wojo

[jesmu84]

There is not an objective observer who could review the last 5 years of MU bball and state that the program isn't in an upward trend. Look where we came from Buzz's last year and wojos first year till today. Look at wins/losses, conference finishes, tourney seeds, roster makeup, etc. By nearly any metric, on an upward trend.

I get that people are upset that it might be non-linear or that it's slow/methodical instead of giant leaps of growth. That would be nice.  But it isn't, and, again, overall, the growth is positive.

Some believe they can predict the future and believe wojo isn't the guy to take MU to constant high-level success. And, that's all it is right now, a belief.

For me, until he proves out that belief, he is the answer for MU.

How can he prove it? Again, for me, multiple regressive seasons. Or even multiple plateau seasons. If those situations develop, I'll gladly jump on the "replace wojo" bandwagon.

But until then, I'd like to keep the guy who has the program on the positive (if slightly slow) track. He's earned the right to continue on the trail he's created until he demonstrates negative or no growth.

And, to me, there is never a single game scenario where I would change my stance, even if that is a tourney game.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Good post during this temper tantrum on this board

[muguru]

There is not an objective observer who could review the last 5 years of MU bball and state that the program isn't in an upward trend. Look where we came from Buzz's last year and wojos first year till today. Look at wins/losses, conference finishes, tourney seeds, roster makeup, etc. By nearly any metric, on an upward trend.

I get that people are upset that it might be non-linear or that it's slow/methodical instead of giant leaps of growth. That would be nice.  But it isn't, and, again, overall, the growth is positive.

Some believe they can predict the future and believe wojo isn't the guy to take MU to constant high-level success. And, that's all it is right now, a belief.

For me, until he proves out that belief, he is the answer for MU.

How can he prove it? Again, for me, multiple regressive seasons. Or even multiple plateau seasons. If those situations develop, I'll gladly jump on the "replace wojo" bandwagon.

But until then, I'd like to keep the guy who has the program on the positive (if slightly slow) track. He's earned the right to continue on the trail he's created until he demonstrates negative or no growth.

And, to me, there is never a single game scenario where I would change my stance, even if that is a tourney game.

You must have pretty low standards for the program then..did you know that Wojo is the ONLY coach that has been at MU for 5 years or more, that hasn't won a tournament game. Even Mike Deane won 1. He is also the ONLY Coach in MU history(besides Deane)(that has been there 5 years or more) that hasn't made a Sweet 16 by year 5. Dean was fired about 48 hours after his 5th year. So why should Wojo be let off the hook?? How is that acceptable after year 5. Is that how low the programs standards are now?? If so, that's pathetic.

[jesmu84]

You must have pretty low standards for the program then..did you know that Wojo is the ONLY coach that has been at MU for 5 years or more, that hasn't won a tournament game. Even Mike Deane won 1. He is also the ONLY Coach in MU history(besides Deane)(that has been there 5 years or more) that hasn't made a Sweet 16 by year 5. Dean was fired about 48 hours after his 5th year. So why should Wojo be let off the hook?? How is that acceptable after year 5. Is that how low the programs standards are now?? If so, that's pathetic.

You clearly didn't understand any of what I said.

This has nothing to do with "standards." And I'm not talking about any other coach at any other time at any other program in any other situation.

It has everything to do with a coach who is demonstrating success at a program, and keeping that coach until he stops demonstrating success - whether through regression or plateau.

[Cheeks]

When Wojo plateaus, recruiting tails off I will get nervous.  Hasn’t happened yet, next year looks promising....and yes I care about off the court stuff, too.

Pace is slow, but still there, definitely too slow for some.....I get it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You must have pretty low standards for the program then..did you know that Wojo is the ONLY coach that has been at MU for 5 years or more, that hasn't won a tournament game. Even Mike Deane won 1. He is also the ONLY Coach in MU history(besides Deane)(that has been there 5 years or more) that hasn't made a Sweet 16 by year 5. Dean was fired about 48 hours after his 5th year. So why should Wojo be let off the hook?? How is that acceptable after year 5. Is that how low the programs standards are now?? If so, that's pathetic.

Guru, I cannot begin to express how little I care about a Round of 64 victory when judging a coach. I mean really. If Wojo had won against South Carolina two years ago or Murray State a few days ago and then lost in the Round of 32 do you really think the program is any better? If no, why the f*ck does it matter?

Reading your posts, it seems your motivation for firing Wojo is punitive. You want Wojo punished for not living up to your expectations. Thankfully, cooler heads make the decisions. You don't fire a coach to punish them for not meeting expectations (especially not fan expectations). You fire a coach because the best thing for the program is to find a new coach. Firing a guy who just earned the 5th highest seed in the last 40 years of the program is not what is best for the program.

[jutaw22mu]

If you would have asked me before the game at Nova if I thought Wojo was on an upward trend, I would have agreed.  However, the way he closed out the season convinced me that he is in way over his head and is not a good fit for MU.  It’s too bad, because I do really like the guy, but he cannot coach.  I like a lot of people but would not want them in charge of our program.

[jonny09]

Guru, I cannot begin to express how little I care about a Round of 64 victory when judging a coach. I mean really. If Wojo had won against South Carolina two years ago or Murray State a few days ago and then lost in the Round of 32 do you really think the program is any better? If no, why the f*ck does it

matter?



Wait........So winning in the tournament doesn’t matter?   

Reading your posts, it seems your motivation for firing Wojo is punitive. You want Wojo punished for not living up to your expectations. Thankfully, cooler heads make the decisions. You don't fire a coach to punish them for not meeting expectations (especially not fan expectations). You fire a coach because the best thing for the program is to find a new coach. Firing a guy who just earned the 5th highest seed in the last 40 years of the program is not what is best for the program.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Very level headed post, jesmu.  Unfortunately, those against Wojo won't change their minds.  MU could have lost in the Sweet 16, and they would say "See, Wojo can't win during the 2nd weekend."

Now, I am not saying Wojo is some fabulous coach.  But he's coming off his best season.   He's done enough to keep his job and the arrow is still pointing up.  I don't know what Wojo's ceiling is but I know we haven't seen it.

I'm willing to see where things go.  I won't set any ultimatums for Wojo (as if me doing so would have any affect on anything).  If things crash and burn, then I will support a coaching change.   But not before. 

[willie warrior]

There is not an objective observer who could review the last 5 years of MU bball and state that the program isn't in an upward trend. Look where we came from Buzz's last year and wojos first year till today. Look at wins/losses, conference finishes, tourney seeds, roster makeup, etc. By nearly any metric, on an upward trend.

I get that people are upset that it might be non-linear or that it's slow/methodical instead of giant leaps of growth. That would be nice.  But it isn't, and, again, overall, the growth is positive.

Some believe they can predict the future and believe wojo isn't the guy to take MU to constant high-level success. And, that's all it is right now, a belief.

For me, until he proves out that belief, he is the answer for MU.

How can he prove it? Again, for me, multiple regressive seasons. Or even multiple plateau seasons. If those situations develop, I'll gladly jump on the "replace wojo" bandwagon.

But until then, I'd like to keep the guy who has the program on the positive (if slightly slow) track. He's earned the right to continue on the trail he's created until he demonstrates negative or no growth.

And, to me, there is never a single game scenario where I would change my stance, even if that is a tourney game.

Haha. Trying to rationalize performance, especially recent atrocious performance, with "objective" people on this board is ludicrous
Look at the meltdown of the last part of the season in a very down year of the Beast. Objectivity: what about 5 years with 2 one and done in the dance? What about getting our ass kicked repeatedly down the stretch this year? What about the laughing stock game this year in the dance? What about the lack of prep for games, the many turnovers from veteran team? What about the dumb fouls?  All of this coming recently, and yet the so called objective Wojo lap dogs keep up the mantra of we are tracking upward and we will be really good next year. And if you bring up this objective analysis, you are called names  told you are not a fan because you challenge the spin
 HOGWASH!!

[Vander Blue Man Group]

You must have pretty low standards for the program then..did you know that Wojo is the ONLY coach that has been at MU for 5 years or more, that hasn't won a tournament game. Even Mike Deane won 1. He is also the ONLY Coach in MU history(besides Deane)(that has been there 5 years or more) that hasn't made a Sweet 16 by year 5. Dean was fired about 48 hours after his 5th year. So why should Wojo be let off the hook?? How is that acceptable after year 5. Is that how low the programs standards are now?? If so, that's pathetic.

Do you really not see how ridiculous a Wojo/Deane comparison is?

Wojo will be back next season and deserves to be. His seat should and will be a little hotter. 

Unlike some of the nutjobs that want Markus to go, I hope he stays. But if he does go and Symir reclassifies I'd be extremely curious how Wojo adjusts and the team performs. Could tell us a lot.

[muguru]

Guru, I cannot begin to express how little I care about a Round of 64 victory when judging a coach. I mean really. If Wojo had won against South Carolina two years ago or Murray State a few days ago and then lost in the Round of 32 do you really think the program is any better? If no, why the f*ck does it matter?

Reading your posts, it seems your motivation for firing Wojo is punitive. You want Wojo punished for not living up to your expectations. Thankfully, cooler heads make the decisions. You don't fire a coach to punish them for not meeting expectations (especially not fan expectations). You fire a coach because the best thing for the program is to find a new coach. Firing a guy who just earned the 5th highest seed in the last 40 years of the program is not what is best for the program.

He earned the 5th highest seed in 40 years, and did what with it exactly?? Getting the 5th highest seed in 40 years is 100% meaningless, if you don't do a thing with it. I mean do you get to hang a banner for something like that?? Do you not even understand that Coaching at any level from college and above is about results, and winning?? Any Coach will tell you that.

Would getting to the Round of 32 mean anything?? Maybe not on the surface, but it at least shows people you can get to the tournament and win when you do get there. Look how much Buzz won when he got to the tournament. I think the biggest problem is now that the administration doesn't really give a F, how good the program is. They really don't. They don't care if they win at the highest level or not. Bring in good kids, that stay out of trouble, produce mid major results on the court..they are fine with that.

2 tournament appearances in 5 years..don't give me this "look what he started with" nonsense. Even if you cut him some slack for the first four years...this was year 5...he had the best team he has ever had..and it's not close. What did that result in?? A monumental collapse at the end of the year, no BE title(when all they had to do was win 1 game out of 4), no Big East tournament title, and a loss to a mid major as a higher seed. The administration is okay with that now?? Apparently so, and that's really really pathetic with the resources they put into the BB program. Nothing like acting mid major ish...at Marquette, the MINIMUM expectation should be going to the tourney every single year..bare minimum. Apparently it's an "honor" now to be chosen for the NCAA tournament. Is this Wofford or something?? There's a place where they should celebrate getting an invite every so often. And...they won a game too! As a higher seed. Imagine that!

You don't think it wouldn't be good for the program?? I assume because you THINK there would be mass transfers?? Well, Sam wouldn't leave(he's a Senior that would make ZERO sense), which means Joey would stay(he'd lose a year of eligibility if he left), and Markus will be back(I'm pretty sure). Keep those 3 and bring in someone that can actually do something with that kind of talent. Someone that can make in game adjustments. That has a bag of tricks for when it's needed. And most of all, someone that doesn't say "well examine that and see if we can figure out what happened", in regards to the late season collapse. That's the one that pushed me over the edge and told me he was absolutely in over his head. You wait until the end of the year to "figure it out"?

No, you damn well should have figured it out and corrected it after the second straight loss. That's what a good Coach does. Yet we saw NOTHING different during that stretch. Not even something as small as a starting line up change. Nothing like showing you have no idea what happened, or how to fix it and not even trying something(anything) to help the team snap out of it.

[muguru]

Haha. Trying to rationalize performance, especially recent atrocious performance, with "objective" people on this board is ludicrous
Look at the meltdown of the last part of the season in a very down year of the Beast. Objectivity: what about 5 years with 2 one and done in the dance? What about getting our ass kicked repeatedly down the stretch this year? What about the laughing stock game this year in the dance? What about the lack of prep for games, the many turnovers from veteran team? What about the dumb fouls?  All of this coming recently, and yet the so called objective Wojo lap dogs keep up the mantra of we are tracking upward and we will be really good next year. And if you bring up this objective analysis, you are called names  told you are not a fan because you challenge the spin
 HOGWASH!!

+1000...you'd think a Good Coach would have fixed at least SOME of that, right?? These Wojo backers are something else. Talk about small time thinking...how soon they forget about where this program was about 8 years ago under Buzz..going to the dance and winning was the norm. His teams had an identity. He changed things up when things weren't going right in a particular game. If this "progress" was coming at a place like Wofford or Buffalo or something, then yes, it would be great. This is freaking Marquette. If the expectations aren't to win at the highest levels consistently, then stop pumping the resources you do into the program and join the Horizon league.

[muguru]

Do you really not see how ridiculous a Wojo/Deane comparison is?

Wojo will be back next season and deserves to be. His seat should and will be a little hotter. 

Unlike some of the nutjobs that want Markus to go, I hope he stays. But if he does go and Symir reclassifies I'd be extremely curious how Wojo adjusts and the team performs. Could tell us a lot.

Oh I want him to stay too, but if he doesn't, there won't be any "adjustments". It will be what it will be unfortunately. I mean...what did he do to stop the late season collapse?? What did he do for a game plan to stop Ja in the tourney(that was the most god awful game plan I have ever seen). Making "adjustments" to or for anything is obviously something he has ZERO idea how to do. That has been proven time and time again sadly enough.

[Badgerhater]

We have been told to wait five years to judge, but I guess that bar has been moved.

If next years flaws are still major factors then Wojo needs to go because it is all on him.

But you only ditch a coach when you know you can get a better one, I don’t think MU can do that at this time.

[Jon]

Fact is, Wojo lost this team.

Anyone who has been the top dog in any reasonably sized organization would see that Marquette was lost for the last half of the season.

Lose to Nova? Identify then implement the fix.

But when the losses continued to pile up it was all on Wojo. The buck landed squarely on his desk.

Unfortunately, Wojo didn't have the talent to correct this season's skid. Nor does he have the intestinal fortitude to address the atmospherics or climate. Leadership is 90% mental. Wojo demonstrated repeatedly that he not only could not turn things around but is too thin-skinned to be a leader at this level.

There is a reason he rode the pine next to K for as long as he did. In the fighter pilot world it's called The Right Stuff. Wojo's Right Stuff canister is pegged hard right.

You could see it on the faces of the crew. Wojo lost them. And for anyone who has ever been asked to lead something you know that is the ultimate failure of command.

Don't talk about trajectory. The real story is how Wojo lost this team in March. I know Spec Op Team Leads who have more leadership talent in their small toe than Wojo possesses in total. Time for Wojo to turn in the keys to the Escalade and slink back to Durham. After 19 years on that bench his butt cheek imprints should still be visible.

[willie warrior]

Fact is, Wojo lost this team.

Anyone who has been the top dog in any reasonably sized organization would see that Marquette was lost for the last half of the season.

Lose to Nova? Identify then implement the fix.

But when the losses continued to pile up it was all on Wojo. The buck landed squarely on his desk.

Unfortunately, Wojo didn't have the talent to correct this season's skid. Nor does he have the intestinal fortitude to address the atmospherics or climate. Leadership is 90% mental. Wojo demonstrated repeatedly that he not only could not turn things around but is too thin-skinned to be a leader at this level.

There is a reason he rode the pine next to K for as long as he did. In the fighter pilot world it's called The Right Stuff. Wojo's Right Stuff canister is pegged hard right.

You could see it on the faces of the crew. Wojo lost them. And for anyone who has ever been asked to lead something you know that is the ultimate failure of command.

Don't talk about trajectory. The real story is how Wojo lost this team in March. I know Spec Op Team Leads who have more leadership talent in their small toe than Wojo possesses in total. Time for Wojo to turn in the keys to the Escalade and slink back to Durham. After 19 years on that bench his butt cheek imprints should still be visible.

Hmmm....there are a few references in here that remind one of the old warthog warrior

[mu_hilltopper]

For all the Wojo Defenders .. can you just tell us how many more seasons you are willing to go without getting MU to the round of 32?

I've said Wojo has one more season, and then it's time to pull the plug -- especially since he'll have his most talented squad ever -- and the next year will be less so.

What is it for you?  7 seasons?  9 seasons?  Never? 

(This presumes all the regular stuff, clean program, players and staff are good representatives, yadda yadda.)

Just fill in the blank:  Wojo can go ___ seasons without an NCAA win.

[real chili 83]

MU spends $11.3 million on men's bball. 10th in spending. We are outspent by 1 Bigwhatever school, and it isn't the rodents.

With that kind of spending, for a school our size, should we be happy with this trajectory? 

If this is good as it gets, hell no.  We should be playing into the second weekend (and beyond) more often than not. 

If Wojo isn't that guy, dump him now.   If he needs a Jerry Wainwright on the bench (Hank Raymonds) go get him one. 

If this is as good as it gets, and the BOT is ok with this, I question their stewardship.

[Jon]

Hmmm....there are a few references in here that remind one of the old warthog warrior

Willie

In my world command is an honor. Live up to the ideal or get the f#ck out of the way.

But from a business perspective, the question must be, "Are the shareholders getting the return they expect?"

In the case of Marquette basketball the answer is a decided no.

[Goose]

real

I was hoping you would post today because I wanted to hear your take on the situation. Your post is pretty much spot on. Once again, it comes down to how they define program success. Judging by many in here, Wojo has had success and enough to believe he will get better. My gut says, BOT thinks Woj has knocked out of the park.

[D'Lo Brown]

The reaction would be essentially the same if we got blown out in the round of 32, or 16. I know this because I am a fan of many other sports teams, and partake at least a little bit in other forums/blogs/etc. All of those sites have the exact same issues following huge losses. MUScoop is nowhere close to unique. Sites like this are an anonymous outlet for passive-aggressive people that desire a way to vent, otherwise.

Trying to rationalize or address specific points raised by these people, pretty much misses the point, and it will never be satisfying. They are looking for a way to rage a bit, prove as many people wrong as possible (in their own mind), etc. And there's probably no end in sight to that.

Wojo is doing a fine job. He is not a genius coach, and he just needs to keep learning. The point where it seems like he is not adjusting enough, is where the majority of fans will start to question things. And, you know, that could happen as soon as next year.

A small cadre of anonymous internet posters each making a maximal amount of noise, doesn't represent a majority no matter how much noise they try to make. There's no satisfying them. Don't worry about it.

[vogue65]

MU spends $11.3 million on men's bball. 10th in spending. We are outspent by 1 Bigwhatever school, and it isn't the rodents.

With that kind of spending, for a school our size, should we be happy with this trajectory? 

If this is good as it gets, hell no.  We should be playing into the second weekend (and beyond) more often than not. 

If Wojo isn't that guy, dump him now.   If he needs a Jerry Wainwright on the bench (Hank Raymonds) go get him.

If this is as good as it gets, and the BOT is ok with this, I question their stewardship.

You can't buy happiness.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

For all the Wojo Defenders .. can you just tell us how many more seasons you are willing to go without getting MU to the round of 32?

I've said Wojo has one more season, and then it's time to pull the plug -- especially since he'll have his most talented squad ever -- and the next year will be less so.

What is it for you?  7 seasons?  9 seasons?  Never? 

(This presumes all the regular stuff, clean program, players and staff are good representatives, yadda yadda.)

Just fill in the blank:  Wojo can go ___ seasons without an NCAA win.

Like I said earlier,  I will not set an ultimatum.  Looking only at tournament results is a very narrow view.

If Marquette goes 29-5, wins the BE, gets a 2 seed but loses to a hot shooting 15, the coach isn't getting fired.

That's just one example.  I prefer to look at the whole picture,  not just tournament results.

[NotAnAlum]

Reading your  many of these posts, it seems your motivation for firing Wojo is punitive. You want Wojo punished for not living up to your expectations. Thankfully, cooler heads make the decisions.

TAMU you hit the nail on the head.  After Thursday night part of me wanted Wojo to PAY for putting out a team that embarrassed MU like they did.
But what really needs to happen is an honest discussion with Wojo by those in power and hopefully those with some real basketball knowledge about what went wrong in the last few weeks of the season and what can be done by this staff to reduce the chance of it happening again. 
Only if they refuse to accept constructive criticism or refuse to take a measure of responsibility would you start to think about making a change.
Firing the coach is the easy part; replacing them with someone better is the difficult part.