Let's Nip This Is the Bud Now

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Tourney seeds under Crean: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8

Average 5.8

Tourney seeds under Buzz: 3, 3, 6, 6, 11

Average 5.8

Inconvenient truth: In the last 20 years, Marquette has only been seeded better 3 times than they were this year.

I understand people want more.  I want more, too.  But I also realize this type of season is a pretty common for Marquette. 

[#UnleashSean]

Tourney seeds under Crean: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8

Average 5.8

Tourney seeds under Buzz: 3, 3, 6, 6, 11

Average 5.8

Inconvenient truth: In the last 20 years, Marquette has only been seeded better 3 times than they were this year.

I understand people want more.  I want more, too.  But I also realize this type of season is a pretty common for Marquette.

Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.

[RJax55]

Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.

Agree, but I'll complain about the 5 seed. Because in five years on the job, that 5 seed is the best thing Wojo's done. Yay!

[GOO]

Did this team outperform its roster for part of the season? Yes.  This team had significant limitations that are part injury (Elliott) and part having a Grad point guard who did not turn out to be all that great.  On Wojo, sure.  But stuff happens.  These issues are being addressed for next year and we've had a point guard in the system on the bench and should have Elliott back.

Did we underperform at the end of the season?  Yes.  NO doubt.  Given the roster we still should have done better.  Obviously our star was hurting, but they did not make that an excuse.

Am I overly concerned about the loss in the tourney?  No.  Why?  Somewhat of a perfect storm.  Matchups are key. 

[GOO]

Did this team outperform its roster for part of the season? Yes.  This team had significant limitations that are part injury (Elliott) and part having a Grad point guard who did not turn out to be all that great.  On Wojo, sure.  But stuff happens.  These issues are being addressed for next year and we've had a point guard in the system on the bench and should have Elliott back.

Did we underperform at the end of the season?  Yes.  NO doubt.  Given the roster we still should have done better.  Obviously our star was hurting, but they did not make that an excuse.

Am I overly concerned about the loss in the tourney?  No.  Why?  Somewhat of a perfect storm.  Matchups are key.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

OOOohhhhhHOOOHhhhhhhh.

I didn't know that the goal for Marquette was to get a ~5 seed every year. 

My bad.  Wojo can stay indefinitely.

I think the MU administration would be thrilled with that.

[rocket surgeon]

It’s not as much the seed as it is the WINNING.  Although a 5 seed has never won the whole enchilada, if they can get thru sweet 16(17%) then the elite 8 win goes up to 75% final 4 to 50%. 

Big picture- get to the dance and freak the chit out of everyone and just f ‘ing win baby!  Winning is fun and always has us wanting more!  Umm, duh, right?


https://www.betfirm.com/seeds-national-championship-odds/

[jutaw22mu]

Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.

Exactly.  In the last 3 weeks, Wojo has been Hue Jackson-esque....just completely and utterly incompetent.  Unlike Hue Jackson, Wojo has really, really good players on his team.  He has had his five years...he can recruit, not coach, so he might be better off going back to being Coach K's assistant at Duke.  There has been no magical 'upward trajectory' with Wojo.  Seriously, time to move on, unless MU desires the mid-major trajectory it is currently on. 

[PVMagic]

The rebuild has been slow, but I do think that overall it's been a slow trend in the right direction.  Wojo has a long way to go, but I do feel like he's improving as well.  Sure, the end of the season was disappointing, in part because of heightened expectations (ie playing for a 2/3 seed) built by how good this team looked earlier in the season. I worked yesterday and could only catch parts of the game, but would a win then a loss to FSU change opinions?  Maybe Murray State loses tomorrow?  I also remember how upset this board was over a loss to South Carolina a few years ago.

Taking a step back, a top 2 finish/5 seed/24 win season with some very good wins against what are proving to be pretty good teams is pretty solid and more than met what I was hoping for at the beginning of the season, even if it's not what I thought we would do once we got into mid February.  It's progress, which absolutely should continue for next year.  Based on our roster (I think even Markus-less, even if half of the "new" posters on the board think he's awful), expectations should be challenging for the BEast title and a top 4 NCAA seed (along with the wins in and out of conference that would be needed to earn that), and I hold Wojo accountable for that.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Exactly.  In the last 3 weeks, Wojo has been Hue Jackson-esque....just completely and utterly incompetent.  Unlike Hue Jackson, Wojo has really, really good players on his team.  He has had his five years...he can recruit, not coach, so he might be better off going back to being Coach K's assistant at Duke.  There has been no magical 'upward trajectory' with Wojo.  Seriously, time to move on, unless MU desires the mid-major trajectory it is currently on. 

LOL..what?  Hue Jackson?  The guy who won one game in two seasons?

Honestly, some people should go away for a few weeks until they regain the ability to make reasonable opinions.

[mr.MUskie]

I do think he improved this year, but he's still got a long way to go. The Big East will be better next year, so he's going to have to continue making strides to compete for a title again.

We need to bring in an experienced coach as an assistant to help with the Xs and Os, making adjustments, and game planning.

[Boozemon Barro]

Yep we'll be in college basketball purgatory for quite some time. Good enough to beat the bottom and the middle. Not enough balls to even challenge the upper tier in a meaningful game. Fear of the unknown will prevent any decision makers from making a change. Apathy will eventually take hold of the fan base as season tickets decline. Then we'll be praying for a truly terrible season that makes it beyond obvious to everyone that a change must be made. Maybe by the late 2020s we'll have a coach and a team ready to compete on the national stage.

[mu_hilltopper]

So....do you have an example of a coach getting fired after leading a team to a 5 seed in the NCAAs without off the court issues?

Not that I know of.  But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.

[jutaw22mu]

LOL..what?  Hue Jackson?  The guy who won one game in two seasons?

Honestly, some people should go away for a few weeks until they regain the ability to make reasonable opinions.

I watched Hue's incompetent coaching and Wojo's coaching, especially down the stretch, was eerily similar.  Prior to the Villanova game in Philly, I posted that it was a must-win game and people said I was wrong and called me stupid.  But it turns out I was right. 

I'm full of reasonable opinions.  Hysterical that you would say my opinions are unreasonable when you tried to say OBJ didn't have anyone who could get the ball to him now that he is on the Browns....so ridiculous.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm full of reasonable opinions.  Hysterical that you would say my opinions are unreasonable when you tried to say OBJ didn't have anyone who could get the ball to him now that he is on the Browns....so ridiculous.

Not what I said. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not that I know of.  But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.

He was trending in the wrong direction though.

[jutaw22mu]

Not what I said.

Actually, it pretty much is what you said.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Who's complaining about a 5 seed? Were complaining about the absolute dismantle over the past month. The one that saw us go from outright big east champs with a 2 seed to losing the conference, the conf tournament and then losing in the 1sr round of the tournament. We don't care we were a 5 seed. We care that we lost 6/7 and never changed a damn thing.

Never said anyone was complaining about the 5 seed.  The inconvenient truth is that this season was a typical good but nothing special season. 

Marquette is 6-6 in the round of 64 in the last 20 years.  4-2 in the round of 32.  2-2 in the Sweet 16.  1-1 in the Elite 8.  0-1 in the Final Four.

Two conference titles in 20 years.  Second place 3 times.   No conference tournament titles, making the final just once.

Missed the tournament 8 times.  4 of those seasons went to NIT.

Those are the facts.  Do with them what you will.  I use them to frame my perspective.  This year gets lumped in with many others.  Not that great but not that bad.  I definitely want more success but also feel this pretty much what Marquette is.

[muguru]

We played 34 games. After 33 games the selection committee said we were one of the top 20 teams (17th to be exact). 33/34 = 97%.

Public opinion is overrated.

Then a top 20 team should certainly win at least one game in the NCAA tournament, right?? What f'n good is getting a 5 seed, if you lose by 20 to a freaking 12 seed?? Two NCAA appearances in 5 years...2 and what has he done with both of them?? Lost by 20 both times..His game plan yesterday was absolutely awful...that in and of itself should get him fired. Everyone knew they didn't have the quickness to stay in front of Morant...everyone except Wojo apparently. He makes no in game adjustments...or the one's he does make are small little tweaks. This was his best team in 5 years...they were on their way to being no worse than a 3 seed and then they...collapsed. One of the worst collapses I have witnessed in my years of following CBB. Then, he says yesterday that we will "have to examine why the late season slide happened". NOW?? After the season is over, you'll "examine" it?? That should have been fixed after the second loss in a row.

The admin now is perfectly content with a middling program, as long as they stay in trouble off the court...winning is secondary. That's complete and total BS to me. there are plenty of programs that have high expectations that stay out of trouble. If they aren't met, the Coach is fired. Not at MU though...Mid major results(or less than), are perfectly fine...that sickens me.

[DegenerateDish]

Not that I know of.  But I do know of a MU coach who won 100 games in 5 years and wasn't going to bring Marquette to where "we" wanted it, and was shown the door.

I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.

Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.

[RJax55]

I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.

Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.

Well said. This is where I'm at. No more next year. Time for some tangible accomplishments.

[warriorfred]

Well said MUDish, well said.

However, I question whether Marquette and Board of Trustees want Marquette basketball to reach the next level?

Sadly, I agree with the original post, if the 2019 - 2020 season is a replay of this season, Wojo will remain the coach. 

"Just good enough, is good enough for Marquette."

[jutaw22mu]

I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.

Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.

Expectations certainly are not being met.  You bring up a good point about how much money and time MU invests into men's basketball.  If things continue going in this trend, I would advocate reallocating that money somewhere else, such as into academics.  The men's basketball team can travel the same way the women's soccer team travels.  If we are going to play like a mid-major under Wojo, perhaps we should limit our resources to mid-major level.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Expectations certainly are not being met.  You bring up a good point about how much money and time MU invests into men's basketball.  If things continue going in this trend, I would advocate reallocating that money somewhere else, such as into academics.  The men's basketball team can travel the same way the women's soccer team travels.  If we are going to play like a mid-major under Wojo, perhaps we should limit our resources to mid-major level.

there have been a lot of bad takes in the last 18 hours.  This one is the worst.

[MarquetteDano]

I'm in total agreement with Topper, and I think other people need to add context here too. The reality is, MU is in a "power" league for basketball, but is not in a Power 5 conference due to their lack of football. I'd argue MU is an outlier in the college basketball world. The conference we're in is an example of other schools that fall in line, no football (or D2 or below) where basketball is the identity of the school.

Expectations at MU should be different than a school like Illinois, Stanford, Georgia Tech. It doesn't mean MU should expect a Sweet 16 run every year, but MU invests a truckload of time and money into men's basketball. If MU loses in the first round next year, then what's the bar for MU? What are we doing here? Woj still has zero tangible wins (people can point to him beating Nova). His resume is two NCAA appearances in five years. If MU doesn't win the conference regular season or BE tourney title next year, and gets bounced in round 1, MU will have spent significant resources to point to an every other year (on average) tournament appearance, zero wins. In that timeframe, MU will have had an NBA lottery pick, the school's all time leading scorer all four years, and two other all Big East players (Hauser's). There's really not a lot of warm and fuzzy coming out of that after six years if that's the case.

Agreed.