Cardinal Pell convicted of sexual abuse

[dgies9156]

By this logic, I have a vote on the Apple board of directors if I chose to by an Android instead.
And a vote on the Facebook board if I delete my profile.
And a vote on multiple automakers' board when I chose another company's vehicle.
None of which is actually true.
Choosing not to belong or donate to the church in no way gives me influence over its hierarchy or leadership structure.

Brother Pakuni, I'm not suggesting either you or I have a vote in the College of Cardinals. But we can cause change.

If we start a movement, which is the foundation of our democracy, we can accomplish anything we want if we can persuade enough people to follow.

The Catholic Church in Europe is slowly becoming a shell. In America, our numbers are dropping and a Wall Street Journal article from yesterday suggested the pedohilia scandal accelerated it. At some point, Church Leadership either listens and accommodates or they can count on smaller membership and even smaller support.

If Rome does not have the billions of dollars in support from the United States and other countries in the developed world, I promise you the church will not function.

The Bishop of the Diocese of Nashville did himself far more harm than good by silencing Deacon Ron Deal at Holy Family Church in Brentwood. Deacon Deal, an attorney by trade, called for an independent investigation of the pedophilia scandal in the Diocese of Nashville, which irritated the Bishop to no end. So the Bishop did what Bishops have done since the Middle ages -- silenced him.

Fortunately, bishops no longer are able to burn their adversaries at the stake!

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

[rocket surgeon]

By this logic, I have a vote on the Apple board of directors if I chose to by an Android instead.
And a vote on the Facebook board if I delete my profile.
And a vote on multiple automakers' board when I chose another company's vehicle.
None of which is actually true.
Choosing not to belong or donate to the church in no way gives me influence over its hierarchy or leadership structure.

your vote is your conscience.  if you feel that your vote/voice needs to be heard, then you're in it for the wrong reasons.  not everyone really cares nor does it matter to anyone what you do or feel.  that's between you and your higher power.  you belong(or not) to the church for your own reasons, not for anyone else.  if you feel the need to tell everyone else that you are leaving the church because of such and such, go beat yourself up.  try social media-they might even listen to you, but don't expect to hear what ya want 

[MU82]

Brother Pakuni, I'm not suggesting either you or I have a vote in the College of Cardinals. But we can cause change.

If we start a movement, which is the foundation of our democracy, we can accomplish anything we want if we can persuade enough people to follow.

The Catholic Church in Europe is slowly becoming a shell. In America, our numbers are dropping and a Wall Street Journal article from yesterday suggested the pedohilia scandal accelerated it. At some point, Church Leadership either listens and accommodates or they can count on smaller membership and even smaller support.

If Rome does not have the billions of dollars in support from the United States and other countries in the developed world, I promise you the church will not function.

The Bishop of the Diocese of Nashville did himself far more harm than good by silencing Deacon Ron Deal at Holy Family Church in Brentwood. Deacon Deal, an attorney by trade, called for an independent investigation of the pedophilia scandal in the Diocese of Nashville, which irritated the Bishop to no end. So the Bishop did what Bishops have done since the Middle ages -- silenced him.

Fortunately, bishops no longer are able to burn their adversaries at the stake!

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Thoughts and prayers.

[Cheeks]

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Lots and lots of reasons for that, but your point is understood.

[dgies9156]

Thoughts and prayers.

Brother MU, thoughts and prayers will not get at this issue. We have been thinking and praying for some time and look where it has lead us.

While you and I think differently about the existence of God, certainly the magnitude of the Church’s scandals does not bode well for the concept of an intervening deity.

[muwarrior69]

Your faith is what is important - the institution is not.

I stopped attending church in the 1980s when christian leaders proclaimed that "the queers got what they deserved" about the AIDS crisis. My beliefs and faith didn't change. My trust in the institution did.

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

[MU82]

Brother MU, thoughts and prayers will not get at this issue. We have been thinking and praying for some time and look where it has lead us.

While you and I think differently about the existence of God, certainly the magnitude of the Church’s scandals does not bode well for the concept of an intervening deity.

Sorry on two fronts, my friend.

1. I probably shouldn't poke fun about this very serious, sickening issue.

2. Should have said "prayers and thoughts" instead!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

There's no correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality.  The reason that most of the victims are male is because priest have greater access, especially in situations of control, to young boys rather than young girls.  And many, if not most, of the perps viewed themselves at heterosexual.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/10/22/no-homosexuality-not-risk-factor-sexual-abuse-children

"A study from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2011 informs us that most of the clergy sexual offenders were “situational generalists” or men who simply abused victims to whom they had access and with whom they had the opportunity to develop trust. In the Catholic Church, these individuals tended to be boys. If Father wanted to have private time with an altar boy or perhaps take a boy off on a camping trip or to a baseball game back in the 20th century, no one would have thought much of it. Boys were trusted with priests. But most of the clergy sex offenders during the last half of the 20th century, according to the John Jay Report, viewed themselves as more likely to be heterosexual than as homosexual."

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

BTW, I should also add that I am really glad to hear about your local parish's attitude toward homosexuality.  I have noticed that quite a number of Catholic institutions have "lightened up" a bit on acceptance and I think it leads to much healthier discussions about these issues and a more vibrant community.

[Jon]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

[jsglow]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

Yep.

[MU82]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

Wait, Crash ... you are advocating for the end of Catholicism? Or the Church hierarchy? Or what exactly?

[Jon]

Wait, Crash ... you are advocating for the end of Catholicism? Or the Church hierarchy? Or what exactly?

I think that the formal Roman Catholic Church is absolutely rotten. IF it is to survive as an institution it needs to undergo a thorough, exhaustive, purgative cleansing which I am not sure it is capable of.

The real problem isn't at the parishes; rather, the diocesan leadership is most responsible for perpetuating reprehensible behaviors. And, unfortunately, the complicity of the organization goes all the way to the Holy See.

The Church needs to come clean. Immediately. Confess. Admit. Atone. Anything less is to continue the injustice.     

Moral leadership demands courage. If the Catholic Church is to re-establish any semblance of virtuous authority it needs to begin demonstrating honesty, integrity, and sincerity. If it cannot do this it deserves to be put out of its misery.

[MU82]

I think that the formal Roman Catholic Church is absolutely rotten. IF it is to survive as an institution it needs to undergo a thorough, exhaustive, purgative cleansing which I am not sure it is capable of.

The real problem isn't at the parishes; rather, the diocesan leadership is most responsible for perpetuating reprehensible behaviors. And, unfortunately, the complicity of the organization goes all the way to the Holy See.

The Church needs to come clean. Immediately. Confess. Admit. Atone. Anything less is to continue the injustice.     

Moral leadership demands courage. If the Catholic Church is to re-establish any semblance of virtuous authority it needs to begin demonstrating honesty, integrity, and sincerity. If it cannot do this it deserves to be put out of its misery.

Can't argue with any of that.

[muwarrior69]

There's no correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality.  The reason that most of the victims are male is because priest have greater access, especially in situations of control, to young boys rather than young girls.  And many, if not most, of the perps viewed themselves at heterosexual.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/10/22/no-homosexuality-not-risk-factor-sexual-abuse-children

"A study from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2011 informs us that most of the clergy sexual offenders were “situational generalists” or men who simply abused victims to whom they had access and with whom they had the opportunity to develop trust. In the Catholic Church, these individuals tended to be boys. If Father wanted to have private time with an altar boy or perhaps take a boy off on a camping trip or to a baseball game back in the 20th century, no one would have thought much of it. Boys were trusted with priests. But most of the clergy sex offenders during the last half of the 20th century, according to the John Jay Report, viewed themselves as more likely to be heterosexual than as homosexual."

They also identified themselves as "men of God" which we know they were not.

[vogue65]

It's remarkable how often people in general - and Catholics in particular - misunderstand the concept of papal infallibility.
It does not mean that the pope is never wrong or that whatever he says goes for all walks of life. It does not say the pope can't be mistaken or make errors in matters like discipline or speaking on matters of morality.
Rather, it says the pope gets final say over official church dogma.

Right, in matters of faith and morals.

Then there is cannon law and all the talk about not creating any scandals which would hurt the faithful. 
I'll take the spirituality and charity and leave the rest.
This year is my first year of not contributing to my high school or college.  I gave up the local church a long time ago.

In their place I support a home for retired Jesuits and work in the Congo by an order of brothers. 
Let the entitled next generation of rich kids and the elite schools that lack ethics fend for themselves.  I know, sorry you feel that way, ha.