Cardinal Pell convicted of sexual abuse

[Jon]

What is genuinely disturbing is how the Catholic Church has not only known about the abuses but has actively been complicit in covering up the crimes.

Should the Roman Catholic Church survive is the real question.

Disgusting.

[Cheeks]

What is genuinely disturbing is how the Catholic Church has not only known about the abuses but has actively been complicit in covering up the crimes.

Should the Roman Catholic Church survive is the real question.

Disgusting.

A lot of bad stuff, a ton of good as well.  This is part of what you get with a human organization that becomes a landing spot for all kinds.  Church has had a pedophile problem for a long time.....existed in our parish growing up and many kids impacted.

[jsglow]

What is genuinely disturbing is how the Catholic Church has not only known about the abuses but has actively been complicit in covering up the crimes.

Should the Roman Catholic Church survive is the real question.

Disgusting.

If it survives, it does so without me.  Corrupt institution to its very core. Been effectively 'gone' for years.

I can envision God saying to St. Peter, 'When so and so passes let me know.  I'll personally handle this one.'

[dgies9156]

If it survives, it does so without me.  Corrupt institution to its very core. Been effectively 'gone' for years.

I can envision God saying to St. Peter, 'When so and so passes let me know.  I'll personally handle this one.'

Brother Glow, this is what worries me about my faith right now. Many of us who were raised in the faith and continue to be practicing Catholics are to the point where we are asking, "what's next?"

Since I was young, we have had financial scandals, pedophilia and, more recently, sexual scandals involving priests abusing nuns. Admittedly, we're not alone but that does not make it right. My high school has five priests on faculty and three of them, including the principal, had credible evidence of pedophilia. One of those priests just died in the state prison. When a deacon/attorney in the diocese called for an independent investigation of the diocese, he was stripped of his ministry.

What scares me is that the Church's mission is to bring God closer to the masses but, in the process, our church has protected the institution rather than the people it is supposed to serve.

Perhaps the biggest victim of all, next to the abuse victims themselves, is the church these men failed. What keeps me going is the number of rally incredible people I've known over the years who are priests and deacons, including many of the folks I knew at MU.

[MU82]

Darn immoral atheists!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

A lot of bad stuff, a ton of good as well.  This is part of what you get with a human organization that becomes a landing spot for all kinds.  Church has had a pedophile problem for a long time.....existed in our parish growing up and many kids impacted.

While it is a "human organization," it is also an organization that has used concepts like "infallibility" as a hammer to get its way and to conform its membership.

[D'Lo Brown]

What is genuinely disturbing is how the Catholic Church has not only known about the abuses but has actively been complicit in covering up the crimes.

Should the Roman Catholic Church survive is the real question.

Disgusting.

No, they shouldn't survive.

But as we see, the feds (or whoever has jurisdiction in each case) don't seem to have much of an interest in it. Separation of church and state, and all. I guess. They will take down a few higher profile clerics and call that justice.

I think there is plenty of evidence that the government takes a hands-off approach to prosecuting any religious officials - do scientology officials have to pay for their crimes? There are endless examples of religious officials across the spectrum enjoying special status when it comes to the judicial system.

And I hope I'm totally wrong on my assessment... The whole thing reeks.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think this happens often because of the statute of limitations that existed when the crime were committed.  These accusations oftentimes are coming to light decades later, and there is little that prosecutors can do.

[D'Lo Brown]

I think this happens often because of the statute of limitations that existed when the crime were committed.  These accusations oftentimes are coming to light decades later, and there is little that prosecutors can do.

Aiding and abetting clerics which you know are pedophiles, has to be prosecutable. I'm not just talking about the individual rapes and assaults. There are a litany of other crimes still going on to this day.

Further, there are many states without any statute of limitations on child sexual abuse. Many others have an extremely long statute of limitations such as 30 years.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx

[tower912]

The Catholics aren't alone in this.  Uptick in reporting of abuse in other denominations as well.

[Cheeks]

While it is a "human organization," it is also an organization that has used concepts like "infallibility" as a hammer to get its way and to conform its membership.

In rare occasions, yes.  Not much different than our civic leaders who force conformity with penalties, eh?

[Pakuni]

Further, there are many states without any statute of limitations on child sexual abuse. Many others have an extremely long statute of limitations such as 30 years.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx

Most of these extensions and eliminations of statutes of limitations in sex abuse cases have occurred only within the last decade and cannot be applied retroactively to offenses that occurred decades ago.

[Pakuni]

While it is a "human organization," it is also an organization that has used concepts like "infallibility" as a hammer to get its way and to conform its membership.

It's remarkable how often people in general - and Catholics in particular - misunderstand the concept of papal infallibility.
It does not mean that the pope is never wrong or that whatever he says goes for all walks of life. It does not say the pope can't be mistaken or make errors in matters like discipline or speaking on matters of morality.
Rather, it says the pope gets final say over official church dogma.

[Pakuni]

In rare occasions, yes.  Not much different than our civic leaders who force conformity with penalties, eh?

Not a very good analogy. We the people get to elect the civic leaders who make the laws and decide the penalties. I've never been able to vote for a pope, bishop, monsignor or pastor.

[Jockey]

Brother Glow, this is what worries me about my faith right now. Many of us who were raised in the faith and continue to be practicing Catholics are to the point where we are asking, "what's next?"

Since I was young, we have had financial scandals, pedophilia and, more recently, sexual scandals involving priests abusing nuns. Admittedly, we're not alone but that does not make it right. My high school has five priests on faculty and three of them, including the principal, had credible evidence of pedophilia. One of those priests just died in the state prison. When a deacon/attorney in the diocese called for an independent investigation of the diocese, he was stripped of his ministry.

What scares me is that the Church's mission is to bring God closer to the masses but, in the process, our church has protected the institution rather than the people it is supposed to serve.

Perhaps the biggest victim of all, next to the abuse victims themselves, is the church these men failed. What keeps me going is the number of rally incredible people I've known over the years who are priests and deacons, including many of the folks I knew at MU.

Your faith is what is important - the institution is not.

I stopped attending church in the 1980s when christian leaders proclaimed that "the queers got what they deserved" about the AIDS crisis. My beliefs and faith didn't change. My trust in the institution did.

[rocket surgeon]

No, they shouldn't survive.

But as we see, the feds (or whoever has jurisdiction in each case) don't seem to have much of an interest in it. Separation of church and state, and all. I guess. They will take down a few higher profile clerics and call that justice.

I think there is plenty of evidence that the government takes a hands-off approach to prosecuting any religious officials - do scientology officials have to pay for their crimes? There are endless examples of religious officials across the spectrum enjoying special status when it comes to the judicial system.

And I hope I'm totally wrong on my assessment... The whole thing reeks.

You need a little brush up on “separation of church and state”. But otherwise,  everyone of these monsters including those who moved them around and covered things up should be put into a place where real justice will be served.  What’s good for the gooser eyn’a?  (Not you goose😳)

As many here make mention of how they are leaving the church...the church is run by humans.  My church is The Big Guy himself

[MU82]

You need a little brush up on “separation of church and state”. But otherwise,  everyone of these monsters including those who moved them around and covered things up should be put into a place where real justice will be served.  What’s good for the gooser eyn’a?  (Not you goose😳)

As many here make mention of how they are leaving the church...the church is run by humans.  My church is The Big Guy himself

Your church is Shaquille O'Neal? Wow! I'm sure he's honored!!

[Cheeks]

Not a very good analogy. We the people get to elect the civic leaders who make the laws and decide the penalties. I've never been able to vote for a pope, bishop, monsignor or pastor.

Not all civic leaders are elected.

Certainly not all bureaucrats that make decisions that force conformity with penalties for noncompliance.

You are 100% correct on papal infallibility which I am glad you pointed out to Fluffy...I attempted the same by saying rarely, but you did a much better job.

[Pakuni]

Not all civic leaders are elected.

Certainly not all bureaucrats that make decisions that force conformity with penalties for noncompliance.

But those bureaucrats - at least in theory, if not always in reality - ultimately answer to an elected official.
I mean, you're correct that not every police officer or code inspector is elected by the people. But that person ultimately works for a mayor or a governor or a county board member, etc. who sets the policy the hired hands enact and enforce.

That's very much unlike the church, in which the policymakers are elected by no one (except the pope, who's elected by a bunch of unelected cardinals).

[#UnleashSean]

The Catholic church corrupt? SHOCKER

[Cheeks]

But those bureaucrats - at least in theory, if not always in reality - ultimately answer to an elected official.
I mean, you're correct that not every police officer or code inspector is elected by the people. But that person ultimately works for a mayor or a governor or a county board member, etc. who sets the policy the hired hands enact and enforce.

That's very much unlike the church, in which the policymakers are elected by no one (except the pope, who's elected by a bunch of unelected cardinals).

 There are priests, bishops, even Cardinals that will do their own thing, usually the American version despite papal edicts. This has been the case for decades by some. 

Now, I get where you are going on the elected leader thing, but I believe it is way too simplistic in terms of what actually happens in the real world. Bureaucrats don't get fired, often following their own drumbeat for any number of reasons which I cannot state or the post will be deleted.

[Cheeks]

The Catholic church corrupt? SHOCKER

Fill in 1000's of other entities, same thing.

It's the level of the corruption and the nature of it which is so damning.

[rocket surgeon]

Your faith is what is important - the institution is not.

I stopped attending church in the 1980s when christian leaders proclaimed that "the queers got what they deserved" about the AIDS crisis. My beliefs and faith didn't change. My trust in the institution did.

Totally agree with first sentence

Not sure which “leaders” proclaimed the above, but whoever they were and if they were considered to be “leaders” then in my mind, they completely ceased to be if that’s what they “proclaimed”.

[dgies9156]

That's very much unlike the church, in which the policymakers are elected by no one (except the pope, who's elected by a bunch of unelected cardinals).

You do have a vote in the Church.

You may elect to withhold support for the Catholic Church and its activities.

You may elect to leave the church and pursue a faith tradition that is more consistent with your beliefs, values and better serves your need for spiritual support.

You may even elect to pursue political changes within the temporal framework of the country in which we live. For example, the democracy we cherish and the Catholic Church fears can be used to revoke the tax-free status of organized religion's real estate. Or, you can pursue a political response in which collection revenue is taxed as income.

There are all kinds of things you can "vote" on, if you wish.

As a side note, the sad element of all of the scandals in our church has been that the folks who use our Catholic faith tradition as a vehicle to live the teachings of Jesus also have been tarnished by the continuing scandals. The thousands of people at Marquette, for example, who taught us, the pastors and associates who uphold their vows and minister to the communities in which they live, quietly and humbly have got to be absolutely downtrodden by all of this.
 

[Pakuni]

You do have a vote in the Church.

You may elect to withhold support for the Catholic Church and its activities.

You may elect to leave the church and pursue a faith tradition that is more consistent with your beliefs, values and better serves your need for spiritual support.

By this logic, I have a vote on the Apple board of directors if I chose to by an Android instead.
And a vote on the Facebook board if I delete my profile.
And a vote on multiple automakers' board when I chose another company's vehicle.
None of which is actually true.
Choosing not to belong or donate to the church in no way gives me influence over its hierarchy or leadership structure.

[dgies9156]

By this logic, I have a vote on the Apple board of directors if I chose to by an Android instead.
And a vote on the Facebook board if I delete my profile.
And a vote on multiple automakers' board when I chose another company's vehicle.
None of which is actually true.
Choosing not to belong or donate to the church in no way gives me influence over its hierarchy or leadership structure.

Brother Pakuni, I'm not suggesting either you or I have a vote in the College of Cardinals. But we can cause change.

If we start a movement, which is the foundation of our democracy, we can accomplish anything we want if we can persuade enough people to follow.

The Catholic Church in Europe is slowly becoming a shell. In America, our numbers are dropping and a Wall Street Journal article from yesterday suggested the pedohilia scandal accelerated it. At some point, Church Leadership either listens and accommodates or they can count on smaller membership and even smaller support.

If Rome does not have the billions of dollars in support from the United States and other countries in the developed world, I promise you the church will not function.

The Bishop of the Diocese of Nashville did himself far more harm than good by silencing Deacon Ron Deal at Holy Family Church in Brentwood. Deacon Deal, an attorney by trade, called for an independent investigation of the pedophilia scandal in the Diocese of Nashville, which irritated the Bishop to no end. So the Bishop did what Bishops have done since the Middle ages -- silenced him.

Fortunately, bishops no longer are able to burn their adversaries at the stake!

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

[rocket surgeon]

By this logic, I have a vote on the Apple board of directors if I chose to by an Android instead.
And a vote on the Facebook board if I delete my profile.
And a vote on multiple automakers' board when I chose another company's vehicle.
None of which is actually true.
Choosing not to belong or donate to the church in no way gives me influence over its hierarchy or leadership structure.

your vote is your conscience.  if you feel that your vote/voice needs to be heard, then you're in it for the wrong reasons.  not everyone really cares nor does it matter to anyone what you do or feel.  that's between you and your higher power.  you belong(or not) to the church for your own reasons, not for anyone else.  if you feel the need to tell everyone else that you are leaving the church because of such and such, go beat yourself up.  try social media-they might even listen to you, but don't expect to hear what ya want 

[MU82]

Brother Pakuni, I'm not suggesting either you or I have a vote in the College of Cardinals. But we can cause change.

If we start a movement, which is the foundation of our democracy, we can accomplish anything we want if we can persuade enough people to follow.

The Catholic Church in Europe is slowly becoming a shell. In America, our numbers are dropping and a Wall Street Journal article from yesterday suggested the pedohilia scandal accelerated it. At some point, Church Leadership either listens and accommodates or they can count on smaller membership and even smaller support.

If Rome does not have the billions of dollars in support from the United States and other countries in the developed world, I promise you the church will not function.

The Bishop of the Diocese of Nashville did himself far more harm than good by silencing Deacon Ron Deal at Holy Family Church in Brentwood. Deacon Deal, an attorney by trade, called for an independent investigation of the pedophilia scandal in the Diocese of Nashville, which irritated the Bishop to no end. So the Bishop did what Bishops have done since the Middle ages -- silenced him.

Fortunately, bishops no longer are able to burn their adversaries at the stake!

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Thoughts and prayers.

[Cheeks]

As to the automobile analogy, I would beg to differ. People voted with their money when Nissan, Toyota, Honda, VW. BMW etc., all came here. They simply built better vehicles than GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Lots and lots of reasons for that, but your point is understood.

[dgies9156]

Thoughts and prayers.

Brother MU, thoughts and prayers will not get at this issue. We have been thinking and praying for some time and look where it has lead us.

While you and I think differently about the existence of God, certainly the magnitude of the Church’s scandals does not bode well for the concept of an intervening deity.

[muwarrior69]

Your faith is what is important - the institution is not.

I stopped attending church in the 1980s when christian leaders proclaimed that "the queers got what they deserved" about the AIDS crisis. My beliefs and faith didn't change. My trust in the institution did.

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

[MU82]

Brother MU, thoughts and prayers will not get at this issue. We have been thinking and praying for some time and look where it has lead us.

While you and I think differently about the existence of God, certainly the magnitude of the Church’s scandals does not bode well for the concept of an intervening deity.

Sorry on two fronts, my friend.

1. I probably shouldn't poke fun about this very serious, sickening issue.

2. Should have said "prayers and thoughts" instead!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

There's no correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality.  The reason that most of the victims are male is because priest have greater access, especially in situations of control, to young boys rather than young girls.  And many, if not most, of the perps viewed themselves at heterosexual.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/10/22/no-homosexuality-not-risk-factor-sexual-abuse-children

"A study from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2011 informs us that most of the clergy sexual offenders were “situational generalists” or men who simply abused victims to whom they had access and with whom they had the opportunity to develop trust. In the Catholic Church, these individuals tended to be boys. If Father wanted to have private time with an altar boy or perhaps take a boy off on a camping trip or to a baseball game back in the 20th century, no one would have thought much of it. Boys were trusted with priests. But most of the clergy sex offenders during the last half of the 20th century, according to the John Jay Report, viewed themselves as more likely to be heterosexual than as homosexual."

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There are good and bad actors in all communities. At my parish our music director was gay and lived with his gay partner. He was the kindest person one could ever meet and those of us were perfectly fine having him teach our children music. There was absolutely no thought of him molesting our kids, ever. Over 2000 parishioners attended his memorial and 200 flew down to Georgia to attend the service at his hometown baptist church. However, the majority of the sex abuse scandal was committed by gay men who preyed upon young boys and seminarians because they were in positions of opportunity and power. All gay men are not pedophiles just as all priests are not. The church will survive because those of us who are faithful   to its founder Jesus Christ will not abandon it.

BTW, I should also add that I am really glad to hear about your local parish's attitude toward homosexuality.  I have noticed that quite a number of Catholic institutions have "lightened up" a bit on acceptance and I think it leads to much healthier discussions about these issues and a more vibrant community.

[Jon]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

[jsglow]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

Yep.

[MU82]

The vast majority of people have no issue with homosexuality.

And the issue with the Roman Church isn't homosexuality. It is institutional complicity in systemic criminal activity. The Church covered up horrendous behavior and enabled it to continue for generations.

The entity should cease to exist as it forfeited any moral authority it once had. I cannot fathom how it can undo the wrong it has perpetrated against those who looked to it for spiritual guidance and insight.

Wait, Crash ... you are advocating for the end of Catholicism? Or the Church hierarchy? Or what exactly?

[Jon]

Wait, Crash ... you are advocating for the end of Catholicism? Or the Church hierarchy? Or what exactly?

I think that the formal Roman Catholic Church is absolutely rotten. IF it is to survive as an institution it needs to undergo a thorough, exhaustive, purgative cleansing which I am not sure it is capable of.

The real problem isn't at the parishes; rather, the diocesan leadership is most responsible for perpetuating reprehensible behaviors. And, unfortunately, the complicity of the organization goes all the way to the Holy See.

The Church needs to come clean. Immediately. Confess. Admit. Atone. Anything less is to continue the injustice.     

Moral leadership demands courage. If the Catholic Church is to re-establish any semblance of virtuous authority it needs to begin demonstrating honesty, integrity, and sincerity. If it cannot do this it deserves to be put out of its misery.

[MU82]

I think that the formal Roman Catholic Church is absolutely rotten. IF it is to survive as an institution it needs to undergo a thorough, exhaustive, purgative cleansing which I am not sure it is capable of.

The real problem isn't at the parishes; rather, the diocesan leadership is most responsible for perpetuating reprehensible behaviors. And, unfortunately, the complicity of the organization goes all the way to the Holy See.

The Church needs to come clean. Immediately. Confess. Admit. Atone. Anything less is to continue the injustice.     

Moral leadership demands courage. If the Catholic Church is to re-establish any semblance of virtuous authority it needs to begin demonstrating honesty, integrity, and sincerity. If it cannot do this it deserves to be put out of its misery.

Can't argue with any of that.

[muwarrior69]

There's no correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality.  The reason that most of the victims are male is because priest have greater access, especially in situations of control, to young boys rather than young girls.  And many, if not most, of the perps viewed themselves at heterosexual.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/10/22/no-homosexuality-not-risk-factor-sexual-abuse-children

"A study from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2011 informs us that most of the clergy sexual offenders were “situational generalists” or men who simply abused victims to whom they had access and with whom they had the opportunity to develop trust. In the Catholic Church, these individuals tended to be boys. If Father wanted to have private time with an altar boy or perhaps take a boy off on a camping trip or to a baseball game back in the 20th century, no one would have thought much of it. Boys were trusted with priests. But most of the clergy sex offenders during the last half of the 20th century, according to the John Jay Report, viewed themselves as more likely to be heterosexual than as homosexual."

They also identified themselves as "men of God" which we know they were not.

[vogue65]

It's remarkable how often people in general - and Catholics in particular - misunderstand the concept of papal infallibility.
It does not mean that the pope is never wrong or that whatever he says goes for all walks of life. It does not say the pope can't be mistaken or make errors in matters like discipline or speaking on matters of morality.
Rather, it says the pope gets final say over official church dogma.

Right, in matters of faith and morals.

Then there is cannon law and all the talk about not creating any scandals which would hurt the faithful. 
I'll take the spirituality and charity and leave the rest.
This year is my first year of not contributing to my high school or college.  I gave up the local church a long time ago.

In their place I support a home for retired Jesuits and work in the Congo by an order of brothers. 
Let the entitled next generation of rich kids and the elite schools that lack ethics fend for themselves.  I know, sorry you feel that way, ha.