Neither "great," nor a "disaster" -- final grade still to come

[fjm]

Don't agree at all with your statement in first paragraph.  There is ALWAYS something to be concerned about, I don't care if you are Kentucky, Duke, UNC, MU or Gonzaga.  We get why the old timers see things differently, but we also don't understand why the old timers haven't also realized the world changed.  I consider myself a bridge having worked in the department knowing some of the people that got us to the mountain, but also working in what became of college basketball and athletics in general. 

I have no doubt in my mind if Scoop was around in the 70's the bitching and gnashing would be every bit as crazy.  We had some epic burnouts that people seem to forget.  Some losses that NEVER should have happened if using the logic of today back then....especially back then considering the talent.

We have four RSCI guys on this team, none of them better than 50th if I recall.  We have talent, but we still don't have the talent many other programs have.  You have to win and prove it before adding to that talent....patience is not a strong suit of this board because we have been at the top of the mountain decades ago and because there are those that don't care about clean program, they just want results.  Thus, they see other programs turn the corner quicker with lesser standards and say why not us.  Sorry, but MU isn't going that direction.  They want winning and clean, and that's the deal.

I think this is my favorite thing you’ve ever posted.

You really touch on a lot.

And to be fair, I’m one of the younger and when I look at this team I see success and upward improvement.

Better than last year! Didn’t lose to DePaul.

Better than two years ago? Check... ranked #10 at one point. Much better D. Much more confident in our possible post season ability.

Better than the other 2 years. My word... yes. Not even going to get into that.

Work left to do? You’re damn right there is.

The thing is, if we separated the wins from the losses, sure we’ve had some crummy losses here recently for a number of reasons. But I still see this as a possible elite 8 team if they can get back to what they were doing vs Kstate, Buffalo,Sconnie, and much of the BEast. (Having said that, I’m also concerned over 2 possible one and dones).

[Goose]

MU82
Good post. First off, I believe the Hausers are the backbone of the program and guys I would recruit would be players that compliment them. Again, my biggest point is the lack of a system installed by Wojo in five years. If I were Wojo I would build a system similar to UW. It appears that he is comfortable with that type of player and I would build off that system. Problem is, if he did that now it would like be starting all over again. That lies that biggest error Wojo made, IMO.

If I were coach, I would build off the Buzz system and recruit those types of players. Both can be successful, but I think you have to be a helluva coach to blend the two.

This then goes to recruiting. Wojo all styles and levels of players and it is hard to mesh them together. I love he goes after five stars, but ending up Theo and Joe C is a far cry from landing the big boys.

I bet my buddy at work that this thread would die or my system/style premise would be ignored. I challenge any pro Wojo fan to outline the game plan Wojo has in place for long term success based off kind of player recruited or style of play. He has done a decent job with the guys he has got, but it is not a sustainable system, IMO.

Markus Howard, like him or not, has either kept them in games or won games with crazy scoring. That is not a system or coaching, but rather, a one man gang.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo. But, if I were his boss, I would want a PPT outlining a sustainable path to success. Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.

Again, I would love to hear the pro Wojo guys thoughts on this. I have tried not to come across as negative, and truthfully, I am not against Wojo. I do not believe that two fans can answer my question in same way, aside from saying he recruits good kids.

[dgies9156]

I'd give the team a B- for this year, pending the tournament.

Good side was some signature wins and a long winning streak that included some games we had no business winning (can anyone say we deserved to win at Creighton with a straight face?).

Last four games took us from an A- to a B- and we could go lower if we do not beat St. John's in the NIT.

What scares me about this team is we're incomplete. We seem flustered at times and even lose poise. After watching the last four games, I'm also wondering if conditioning is an issue. We really seemed flat in the last five minutes of the games.

One of Scoop's areas of concern that's not mine is Coach Wojo. I think he's learning to be a head coach and his progression year over year has been good. As long as we can continue to make him happy, I'm optimistic that he will learn from his mistakes and grow -- just like all of us do. We still have plenty of work to do to be elite but Coach Wojo is our's and I'm seeing a better coach now than I did even two years ago.

Brothers Goose and MU82, thanks for the analysis.

[Goose]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

[MU82]

MU82
Good post. First off, I believe the Hausers are the backbone of the program and guys I would recruit would be players that compliment them. Again, my biggest point is the lack of a system installed by Wojo in five years. If I were Wojo I would build a system similar to UW. It appears that he is comfortable with that type of player and I would build off that system. Problem is, if he did that now it would like be starting all over again. That lies that biggest error Wojo made, IMO.

If I were coach, I would build off the Buzz system and recruit those types of players. Both can be successful, but I think you have to be a helluva coach to blend the two.

This then goes to recruiting. Wojo all styles and levels of players and it is hard to mesh them together. I love he goes after five stars, but ending up Theo and Joe C is a far cry from landing the big boys.

I bet my buddy at work that this thread would die or my system/style premise would be ignored. I challenge any pro Wojo fan to outline the game plan Wojo has in place for long term success based off kind of player recruited or style of play. He has done a decent job with the guys he has got, but it is not a sustainable system, IMO.

Markus Howard, like him or not, has either kept them in games or won games with crazy scoring. That is not a system or coaching, but rather, a one man gang.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo. But, if I were his boss, I would want a PPT outlining a sustainable path to success. Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.

Again, I would love to hear the pro Wojo guys thoughts on this. I have tried not to come across as negative, and truthfully, I am not against Wojo. I do not believe that two fans can answer my question in same way, aside from saying he recruits good kids.

Five years in and hoping a 5-9 scores 60 and limits turnovers is too risky for me.


Goose, as a writer I applaud intentional hyperbole. Surprised you didn't say Markus is 5-4 and that we need him to score 100. Maybe 4-11 and we need him to score 125!

Anyhoo ...

I believe Wojo's preferred "system" is first to play great defense; he has seen how having a lousy defense can undermine even a historically good offense. I think we have made great strides there, improving significantly as personnel allowed. Offensively, it's to get the best recruits he can, to gradually bring in good athletes but mostly very good basketball players. I do think he wants to shoot a lot of 3s and also run some, and to do that consistently well a team needs more playmakers.

That's what I think he wants based on interviews I've seen and based on what I've seen on the court. Not sure if that meets your standard or not for describing what his "system" should be, but it's the best I've got.

For the record, I do not know if I would fire Wojo.

For the record, you wouldn't fire Wojo if you were pretty much any non-blueblood university president in the country. His teams have improved, they play exciting ball, the arena is mostly full, they will have gone NCAA-NIT-NCAA in the last three years, next year's team should be better, more good recruits are in the pipeline, and his kids are good representatives of the university.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

I was going to ask what you believed Al’s system to be so we had that context.

I’m not sure that is a system. At least it’s not meaningfully different than the system that majority of programs run.

Get great players...check
Play good defense...check
Make great players play really hard...check
Make sure everyone understands their role...check

The whole “system” thing rang hollow to me and now that has been confirmed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tower is right. Wojo is trying to emulate Duke's Motion offense. Four out, one in, continual cuts and screens through the middle of the floor. These theoretically open up lanes for driving and drive/kick opportunities. It also tends to open the floor for those free throw line jumpers that Joey and Sam love to take. Think Christian Laettner and how many of those same types of jumpers he used to take.

The challenge that I've seen with Wojo using this at Marquette is that we haven't had enough strong drivers to take advantage. The drive doesn't get the respect needed and the defense stays at home on shooters. That's why when Sacar has played well, our offense has looked the best. Because he makes them pay for staying at home which forces them to adjust and then opens up three point shots.

Offensive system is not something I am worried about with Wojo. We've been a top 10% offense each of the last three years. Having a talented scorer like Howard doesn't achieve that on its own, though it helps. I've been more worried about defensive systems, though once he got the personnel, a lot of those concerns went away.

Like Tower, my biggest concern is that each season Wojo has just met my expectations. He was exceeding them this season until the recent 4 game stretch. I'm not sure he has the ability to make a team better than the sum of its parts. If that is true, then recruiting needs to be at a high level. I'm a bit higher on his recruiting than you are, but not as high as many seem to be. The McEwen and Elliott experiment next season will be a deciding factor in Wojo's tenure IMHO. If they are the drivers that we have been missing to make the Duke Motion Offense work, then I think we will see a lot of concerns put to rest. 2020 class will be big as well. He's had some good classes but 2020 will be the chance to put together an elite class. I like how it has started, let's see if he can finish it.

[Jockey]

I was going to ask what you believed Al’s system to be so we had that context.

I’m not sure that is a system. At least it’s not meaningfully different than the system that majority of programs run.

Get great players...check
Play good defense...check
Make great players play really hard...check
Make sure everyone understands their role...check

The whole “system” thing rang hollow to me and now that has been confirmed.

I think the bolded was the key part and he did that very simply. He tried to recruit one stud a year and he always tried to make his senior stud the star of the team. There were a couple times when he had to change when he had a guard like Butch or the Dream, but even then he tried to emphasize his senior star. everyone new their time would come.

I don't think that would work today, however, as top players expect to be showcased as freshmen.

[4everwarriors]

Kant believe da OP used da "B" word in his first post, hey?

[fjm]

Amazing. 2nd place in a high major conference (yep a down year waaah waaah) and we are talking about firing a coach!? Nice. Seems like a totally level headed idea. (Eyeroll.gif)

[MU82]

I was just thinking about the greatness of Al’s system. He stressed tough nose D, half court offense, recruited studs and took in grinders. Best part of his system, he taught studs to be grinders, not grinders how to be studs. Right now Wojo needs to coach up grinders.

Not saying Al’s system would work today, but it was great system. A lot less work trying to get studs to be happy playing D, than trying to make Sacar into a three point shooter, Theo into serviceable offense player or Howard how to play PG.

Love ya, Goose, but Al's "system" was successfully recruiting some of the best players in the country -- players he had access to in great part because a lot of programs still had quotas of the number of black players they'd accept.

We've had countless threads here on Marquette's GOATs, and Scoopers from "back in the day" summarily dismissed anybody who played after about 1980 except for D-Wade and maybe Jae. And probably for good reason ... because Al had stud after stud after stud after stud. They WERE better than anybody after 1980!

Al also had the luxury of seeing great freshmen become great sophomores, great sophs become great juniors and great juniors become great seniors. Chones left early and it was a cause celebre. Nowadays, it's a cause celebre if they DON'T go early -- even if they are seriously limited players like Henry Ellenson or if they just get sick of college hoops, like Vander Blue. There would have been zero discussion of a 1975 version of Markus Howard possibly going pro.

Al's "system" was to get great players and tell them to play hard -- and to get Hank and Rick to coach up the guys who needed more coaching.

And despite all of those great players, and relatively few truly great programs to compete against, Al "only" got to the Final Four twice -- one more time than the great Tom Crean did.

'70sScoop would be screaming that he "underachieved," and the screaming would have been loudest in February of his final season!!!

[Goose]

Atl MU Warrior
Just curious on why you are not a believer that great programs have systems? Have to add, your stated they played good defense rings a bit hollow to me. A good defense? Obviously you did not watch the Al era closely.

[Goose]

MU82
I think you are simplifying Al’s system a bit. If his system was so easy, how come it took teams years to copy his success. To me, it is like saying Cal at Kentucky was not unique. Al changed the game and Coach Cal did it again.

[Goose]

TAMU
You might be right he is trying to run the Duke system. Then he should be recruiting guys that fit that system. Plenty of three star recruits that probably could become four star college players in right system. That is my point. If you are trying to run something, recruit guys that fill the needs. I do not see that happening the first five years.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Atl MU Warrior
Just curious on why you are not a believer that great programs have systems? Have to add, your stated they played good defense rings a bit hollow to me. A good defense? Obviously you did not watch the Al era closely.

I was 5 when MU won it all in 1977.

Who said I didn’t believe that programs have systems?  I just don’t think you identified a system. You spit out a bunch of cliches.

[Goose]

ATL MU
You said that my system theme rang hollow and my Al comparison confirmed that. Not sure on what cliches I am using. Great programs or organizations have systems in place to have long term success. Not sure on my questioning what is Wojo’s system is anything other than asking what others believe his system is.
Fir the record, Al’s teams have the best D in the nation when needed. Often they were lazy or played down to opponents, but when rubber hit the road, the best D by a wide margin. That is is a fact that cannot be debated.

[ATL MU Warrior]

ATL MU
You said that my system theme rang hollow and my Al comparison confirmed that. Not sure on what cliches I am using. Great programs or originations have systems in place to have long term success. Not sure on my questioning what is Wojo’s system is anything other than asking what others believe his system is.
Fir the record, Al’s teams have the best D in the nation when needed. Often they were lazy or played down to opponents, but when rubber hit the road, the best D by a wide margin. That is is a fact that cannot be debated.

I am not trying to be a jerk, and I obviously have no basis to dispute your knowledge of MU when Al was there.

I guess I just don’t believe that what you described as Al’s system is in fact a system. It’s what every coach tries to do. Obviously some with more success than others for a variety of reasons.

Nolan Richardson had a system at Arkansas. Boeheim has a system at Syracuse. Styles of play they champion and are known for.  TAMU described Duke’s system.

Perhaps I am simply hearing style of play instead of what you mean by system.

[Goose]

ATL MU Warrior
I guess I assumed you and others knew our ball history well. Trust me, MU’s D and discipline were their system. 40 minutes of hell was an extension on MU ball circa 1970’s. Five second violations on inbounds, ten second violations on half court, couples by multiple versions of a trap was their trademark.
I added the recruiting because it is part of the equation. I added the type of coaching as part of the equation. MU basketball was a bitch and Al recruited guys into the system.
Never a transfer, outside of to ABAor NBA and guys flocking to transfer to here. It was system that worked for 14 years.

[jesmu84]

IMO,

Looking back, I believe wojo intially tried to recruit the best players he could get in his own backyard. He surrounded them with whatever he could find. After that stint, he began going after Uber talented players, but didn't have the resume or track record of success to reel them in 100%, so he took the best available after that. That's where we are today. Wojo taking the best he can, regardless of system (while still playing somewhat of a Duke style with emphasis on the 3). I believe he initially preferred IQ and fundamentals over athleticism.

In the future, I think, now that wojo has success marginally under his belt, he can go after the higher ranked kids. The one who add atheleticism to the other attributes that we already have. From there, he'll establish more of a "system" and be able to "pick and choose" more of his type of players.

I think he went for "his backyard" then "best he could get regardless of style" and with winning will get to "pick the best for his system."

[Goose]

jesmu
Kudo’s on your post. I think you summed things up extremely well. My only question, is that plan MU signed up for or did Wojo oversell himself? It is a lot of money to spend on a learn on the job position. KO and Crean has same background and hit the ground running. In addition, thinking he can create his system vs. knowing it, is my my problem. Still a lot of “hoping” or “thinking” he can do it for five years on the job.

Again, while we likely will. never attend the same beer or meat summits, I think your post is the most logicical one made to my question.

[mu_hilltopper]

IMO, Buzz had a superior ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts.    He was an artist or an alchemist.
..
Every year under Wojo, the team has met my expectations.   No better, no worse.    Either I am getting better at assessing talent, or Wojo has not yet developed the ability to make his teams greater than the sum of their parts.    ...
This season has been a B.   

Indeed, Buzz's ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts was really excellent.  His teams punched above their weight class on a frequent basis.

Until ~6 weeks ago, Wojo's teams had rarely done that, and I always doubted his long term viability at MU because of that.  MU is lucky to get the occasional elite recruit, at best.   If we don't have a coach who can work that magic, we're going to be a middle-pack BE team.  Let's see what next year brings.

I predicted 19 wins this year, so +4 means this year was significantly above my Arbys colored expectations.  This is good, hopefully a trend.

The past 4 games sucked and has created the concept that the season, good as it was, can still be greatly "salvaged" by a couple wins in the NCAAs.   

[warriorfred]

My expectations going into the season were 22-24 regular season wins, top 3 in the Big East, 5 seed in the dance.    So, my expectations were spot on.    So far, IMO, Wojo is closer to Crean than Buzz in coaching ability.     Let me try to explain.   Looking back, barring injuries,  Crean's teams either met expectations or came up just short, based on the talent he had.  Crean only won one tourney game without Wade on his team in 9 years.    Solid regular season records.    His recruiting classes were erratic, rarely two good ones in a row.  (Matthews, Bell, Mason, Christian?!?!?!)   I have written it elsewhere, but in hindsight, he was a 'paint by numbers' coach.    Only rarely was a true spark of genius seen (Grimm on Tucker).

Buzz's teams seemed to outperform expectations.   We all loved Gardner, Cadougan, Lockett...   hell, Buzz got to the postseason with a backcourt of Acker and Cubillan and no starter over 6'6.  IMO, he had a superior ability to make the team greater than the sum of its parts.    He was an artist or an alchemist.     He made lack of size a virtue and.... forced Huggins into playing differently than he wanted to....    faked out Brad at the end of the MU/Butler tourney game.... made Crowder matched up against Drummond an advantage for MU.    Rarely developing HS players and a wandering soul were his problems.    As well as not being in sync with administration. 

Every year under Wojo, the team has met my expectations.   No better, no worse.    Either I am getting better at assessing talent, or Wojo has not yet developed the ability to make his teams greater than the sum of their parts.    To me, he seems to be like Crean in that regard.   I think he still has room to grow, though.   

This season has been a B.    The final regular season record was what I expected.    How it came to be was both more exhilarating (20-2!) and more painful (giving up what felt like 20-2 runs to each team at the end) than I anticipated.     I have seen enough from Wojo to want to keep him.   He is recruiting good players and good citizens.     I have not yet seen what I would characterize as 'magic'.

Darn, you made an apt comparison to Crean and now it is in my head.

[warriorfred]

In year 5 of the Wojo reign, my expectations for the regular season have been met, 21+ wins, and 2d in the Big East.  However, my post-season expectations for this year are higher.  Round of 32 at a minimum.  A Sweet 16 slightly exceeds expectations and tells me the direction is positive for year 6.

Elite 8 or better this year tells me Wojo might have some brilliance . . . but I cannot shake Tower's Crean comparison.

[MU82]

MU82
I think you are simplifying Al’s system a bit. If his system was so easy, how come it took teams years to copy his success. To me, it is like saying Cal at Kentucky was not unique. Al changed the game and Coach Cal did it again.

All right, Goose, we've had a good discussion here and I'll let you have the last word on Al. This is not about Al anyway.

Go Marquette!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU
You might be right he is trying to run the Duke system. Then he should be recruiting guys that fit that system. Plenty of three star recruits that probably could become four star college players in right system. That is my point. If you are trying to run something, recruit guys that fill the needs. I do not see that happening the first five years.

This is where you and I see it differently. I think the players he has do fit his system. He has the dynamic scoring guard, sharpshooting bigs, rim protecting centers, and wings who can both drive and shoot. When you land the 3-stars instead of the 5-stars, they need time to develop their game. The wings are behind in their development. Sacar can do what is needed on defense but is inconsistent on offense. Bailey and Cain have potential but aren't quite their on the offensive end. When Sacar is playing at a high level (and others are playing at least average), we are a top 10 team.