737 Max

[dgies9156]

Generally regarded as the safest and best airline to fly on the African continent.

That's like being the most profitable train operated by Amtrak.

I'm sure they're committed to safety and professionalism. But the level of oversight in any African country is NOTHING like that faced by a U.S. carrier.

[Benny B]

I was on a 737 Max 9 to/from LAX to Maui in the last week.

Max 9 is a different plane.  AFAIK, no issues known with the 9. 

[mu03eng]

There is a lot to unpack here, one of which is the absolute sensationalism of the media these days. There very well may be something to the Max 8 that contributed(very key word) to the crash but there is no way that the Max 8 is at "fault" for the crash. The media is treating this like it's some sort of rogue aircraft.

In any commercial aviation accident it is almost always what's called a cascade of catastrophe where there isn't one thing that results in the accident it's a series of events that each step must happen when/how it happened to result in the accident. Classic example is the Air France 447 that crashed in the Atlantic. The pitot tube froze up which was problematic but the air crews contact management exacerbated the situation to the point of a mid-air stall and resulting crash.

The Max 8 very well may have a flaw in its anti-stall capabilities but it is very unlikely to be the sole cause of the crashes or is in any other way directly responsible, but we'll see.

Glow, you are referring to the Center of Gravity(CG) of the aircraft. My understanding is the Max 8 has a rearward CG at take-off so the aircraft has a tendency to go noise up and in modern cockpits instead of using things like manual trib tabs the computers trim the aircraft. As the Max 8 flies the CG moves forward depending on the fuel tanks they're burning up first so the noise up condition goes away and the computer adjusts.

We'll know in about a month here what happened with the Lion Air flight and that'll tell the tale. Unless you are Europe (Airbus) and/or the media.

[DegenerateDish]

That's like being the most profitable train operated by Amtrak.

I'm sure they're committed to safety and professionalism. But the level of oversight in any African country is NOTHING like that faced by a U.S. carrier.

I respectfully disagree here. I have nothing to gain by sticking up for Ethiopian Airlines, but they are one of the largest Star Alliance partners, the FAA in the US gives Ethiopian Air a Category 1 rating for safety (highest possible), likewise the EU’s Aviation Safety Agency gives them the same. The airline regularly updates their fleet at a higher percentage than most US airlines. Their fleet includes new 787’s and 737’s, so they’re investing in capital. AirlineRating.com is an independent highly regarded site, and gives Ethiopian Air 6 out of 7 stars.

I know it’s easy to hear Ethiopian Air and think it’s a patchwork of used planes piecemealed together with spare parts, but this is a very well respected company that is well run, flying new planes.

[mudeltaforcegurl]

Exactly.  The Lion Air flight was one thing as low cost Asian characters have always been points of concern (hence why airports like HKG have secondary security checkpoints before boarding cause they don't trust connecting flights).

But Ethiopian is a fantastic airline, Star Alliance member, new planes, thought of as a jewel of the continent airline wise.

Asians are nasty

[Cheeks]

Asians are nasty

I thought they were crazy and rich......

[mudeltaforcegurl]

I thought they were crazy and rich......

I don’t know. There are a couple I work with on work visa from Taiwan and S Korea that are so rude. They have have terrible hygiene. I’m venting after a long week.

[Jockey]

Asians are nasty

Just don't let anyone call you a bigot cuz you are characterizing an entire race based on two people.

[Jon]

I have over 8,000 hours in command of tactical aircraft. I would get on a Boeing aircraft without a second's hesitation.

[Jon]

Airbus because Airbus already had a better reputation with software/automation

Where did you get this from? Because it is wholly incorrect.

[Jon]

FWIW, Ethiopian Airlines has an incredibly high safety and maintenance record, third world country or not. Generally regarded as the safest and best airline to fly on the African continent.

In virtually every case, maintenance programs in the developing world are outsourced.

Swiss Air, Lufthansa, JAL, etc... actually run the PMS programs for other airlines. I guarantee you that there is a German or Japanese speaker running the Ethiopian airlines maintenance program. 

[Jon]

Asians are nasty

What the f#ck is your problem?

[Cheeks]

I don’t know. There are a couple I work with on work visa from Taiwan and S Korea that are so rude. They have have terrible hygiene. I’m venting after a long week.

My town is mostly Asian...lovely people for the most part.  Hard working, polite, smart, super mellow on the outside but serious on the inside.  But that is merely my experi nice.

The crazy rich was a spoof on the movie.....bad attempt on my part.

[Jockey]

 

My town is mostly Asian...lovely people for the most part.  Hard working, polite, smart, super mellow on the outside but serious on the inside.  But that is merely my experi nice.

The crazy rich was a spoof on the movie.....bad attempt on my part.

I try to ignore you if at all possible, but gotta say that your “crazy rich” comment was in no way offensive. I would guess everyone here knew that it was a play off the movie.

[Jockey]

I have over 8,000 hours in command of tactical aircraft. I would get on a Boeing aircraft without a second's hesitation.

346 victims apparently felt the same way.

[Anti-Dentite]

What the f#ck is your problem?

No problem at all, it can't be offensive if her and her friends don't find it offensive...right?

[jsglow]

I don’t know. There are a couple I work with on work visa from Taiwan and S Korea that are so rude. They have have terrible hygiene. I’m venting after a long week.

Whoa, deltagurl.  You're an educated, respected young physician.  Comments like that are beneath you.

[jsglow]

There is a lot to unpack here, one of which is the absolute sensationalism of the media these days. There very well may be something to the Max 8 that contributed(very key word) to the crash but there is no way that the Max 8 is at "fault" for the crash. The media is treating this like it's some sort of rogue aircraft.

In any commercial aviation accident it is almost always what's called a cascade of catastrophe where there isn't one thing that results in the accident it's a series of events that each step must happen when/how it happened to result in the accident. Classic example is the Air France 447 that crashed in the Atlantic. The pitot tube froze up which was problematic but the air crews contact management exacerbated the situation to the point of a mid-air stall and resulting crash.

The Max 8 very well may have a flaw in its anti-stall capabilities but it is very unlikely to be the sole cause of the crashes or is in any other way directly responsible, but we'll see.

Glow, you are referring to the Center of Gravity(CG) of the aircraft. My understanding is the Max 8 has a rearward CG at take-off so the aircraft has a tendency to go noise up and in modern cockpits instead of using things like manual trib tabs the computers trim the aircraft. As the Max 8 flies the CG moves forward depending on the fuel tanks they're burning up first so the noise up condition goes away and the computer adjusts.

We'll know in about a month here what happened with the Lion Air flight and that'll tell the tale. Unless you are Europe (Airbus) and/or the media.

I told you I keep this guy around for a reason.  Thanks Phil.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don’t know. There are a couple I work with on work visa from Taiwan and S Korea that are so rude. They have have terrible hygiene. I’m venting after a long week.

You seem like a nice co-worker.

[dgies9156]

I respectfully disagree here. I have nothing to gain by sticking up for Ethiopian Airlines, but they are one of the largest Star Alliance partners, the FAA in the US gives Ethiopian Air a Category 1 rating for safety (highest possible), likewise the EU’s Aviation Safety Agency gives them the same. The airline regularly updates their fleet at a higher percentage than most US airlines. Their fleet includes new 787’s and 737’s, so they’re investing in capital. AirlineRating.com is an independent highly regarded site, and gives Ethiopian Air 6 out of 7 stars.

I know it’s easy to hear Ethiopian Air and think it’s a patchwork of used planes piecemealed together with spare parts, but this is a very well respected company that is well run, flying new planes.

Brother Dish, I understand what you are saying. This is not a post-Soviet airline operating Tupolevs and Illusyhns left over from the 1970s. I'm aware they're a big Boeing customer and they're fleet is new. One of their Dreamliners was one of the Dreamliners with Lithium battery problems.

What I do feel and continue to feel is that the regulatory oversight of this airline may be OK by African standards. I doubt seriously the Ethiopian equivalent of the FAA is anywhere near as comprehensive and demanding as the FAA. I'm sure they run a safe and sound airline but there are degrees of safety and soundness.

Regardless, I do hope this is solved quickly. For the people who fly and the people who build airliners.

[mu03eng]

Brother Dish, I understand what you are saying. This is not a post-Soviet airline operating Tupolevs and Illusyhns left over from the 1970s. I'm aware they're a big Boeing customer and they're fleet is new. One of their Dreamliners was one of the Dreamliners with Lithium battery problems.

What I do feel and continue to feel is that the regulatory oversight of this airline may be OK by African standards. I doubt seriously the Ethiopian equivalent of the FAA is anywhere near as comprehensive and demanding as the FAA. I'm sure they run a safe and sound airline but there are degrees of safety and soundness.

Regardless, I do hope this is solved quickly. For the people who fly and the people who build airliners.

I think what you are missing is that Ethiopian Airlines flies in European airspace so has to meet oversite of the EASA(EU's FAA equivalent), they aren't just having to comply with Ethiopian and/or African safety standards. For a flagged carrier to operate in a countries airspace they have to meet regulations provided by that country. That airline flies all over Europe so it complies to all of the same safety standards that BA or Luftansia do.

[mu03eng]

This story is definitely not over and I pray that there will be no incidents as the incompetent leaders in this country oversee things.

Number 1, we have no FAA administrator to oversee this affair. The prez does not consider it an important enough position to even nominate someone for the job. The Transportation Secretary who could shut down all flights of this plane is utterly impotent and useless. When there was a situation with Boeing 787's Lithium batteries catching fire back in 2013, they were grounded immediately by the then Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

Number 2, the ACTING FAA administrator said today that their review of “aggregate safety performance from operators and pilots of the Boeing 737 MAX . . . shows no systemic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft.” In truth, pilots in this country have reported this flaw in the plane over and over (at least 8 reports) within the last several months.

Number 3, Boeing has been working on this fix for months (i know, it seems silly they would be working on a fix for a non-problem) and expect to implement it within the next two months. It would have been done before the end of this month, but work was shut down completely for 5 weeks in January when somebody decided to shut down the gov't for a vanity project.

Number 4, Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg reassured the president today that the Boeing 737 MAX is safe (again, makes one wonder why they are preparing a fix and denying that pilots have been complaining).
A cynic might conclude that someone who is a frequent guest at Mar-A-Lago may have other motives ($$$$).


As I said, I pray that no one else dies. It's probably not unusual for there to be glitches when a new jet hits the market. And, maybe Boeing didn't know about them when the planes were first released, but in the past there were people in charge who were competent and who acted when there was a problem. We don't have people like that in place now.

A case could be made for grounding the Max 8, but it would be a very stretched case and very hysterical. The 787 issue was very different on two counts: there were only a handful of those airframes in the commercial fleet at the time and a fire on an aircraft is a demonstrable flight hazard.....there are hundreds of Max 8s in the civilian fleets and if we're talking about a single automated system that pilots can override it's not an immediate flight hazard. As an example, the Airbus 330 had a known issue of pitot tube freezings that they were working to replace the components, however no one called for the grounding of the 330 before or after the Air France 447 crash because while the pitot tube failure initiated the cascade that resulted in the crash it should have easily been overcome by proper crew management, training, and situational awareness. I suspect if this anti-stall system is found to have contributed it'll be a similar cascade.......

My guess (warning that this is both highly speculative and technical in nature with limited direct knowledge) is that since the current Electronic Flight Control System (EFCS) for the anti-stall (fly by wire if you will) depends on a single sensor if that sensor is bad or if it gives conflicting data with other sensors (altimeter, air speed indicator, etc) the EFCS deconflicts by reverting to a different state of operation. What most people don't realize is that in commercial aviation, the fly by wire design the normal flight mode does not allow the aircraft to put itself(auto-pilot) or the pilot(manual control) into a flight configuration that is dangerous or inappropriate. However knowing that situations might occur that would require an aircraft to be in an extraordinary situation they have a secondary flight mode(Boeing) or Alternative Law(Airbus). When the aircraft goes into secondary mode it is more "traditional" flying where what ever input you give the aircraft will happen as opposed to primary control where you give it an input and it'll do it until the max point allowed by the flight envelope protection. What I suspect happened is that the anti-stall system caused a conflict that the aircraft went into secondary mode and the pilots did not realize that they were "overcontrolling" the aircraft which resulted in them chasing stability and given it occured at low altitudes just after they cleaned up the aircraft from take-off they didn't have the vertical space to recover properly.

But a good conspiracy theory makes sense too 

[Benny B]

I don’t know. There are a couple I work with on work visa from Taiwan and S Korea that are so rude. They have have terrible hygiene. I’m venting after a long week.

Wow.... I cannot overstate how much you chose the wrong line of work if rudeness, poor hygiene and long weeks bother you.

[Benny B]

I also cannot overstate the amount of misinformation and ignorance in this thread. 

Let's refer to Bit #6 of Benny's Bits of Scoop Wisdom:
6-When Air Force and Navy are aligned, play the antagonist at your own peril.

If that's not good enough, consider that Boeing is one of the most sophisticated, technologically advanced companies in the entire world... their reputation is everything.  If something was genuinely wrong with their metal, they would be issuing the grounding order themselves; otherwise, they are putting their entire company at risk.

IOW: A critical oversight and cover-up by the Max 8 team could result in the death of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand... an oversight and cover-up by the team a few cubicles over could result in the death of millions.  Boeing isn't going to risk anything that calls their ability to assess and correct in real time into question.

[Bocephys]

I also cannot overstate the amount of misinformation and ignorance in this thread. 

Let's refer to Bit #6 of Benny's Bits of Scoop Wisdom:
6-When Air Force and Navy are aligned, play the antagonist at your own peril.

If that's not good enough, consider that Boeing is one of the most sophisticated, technologically advanced companies in the entire world... their reputation is everything.  If something was genuinely wrong with their metal, they would be issuing the grounding order themselves; otherwise, they are putting their entire company at risk.

IOW: A critical oversight and cover-up by the Max 8 team could result in the death of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand... an oversight and cover-up by the team a few cubicles over could result in the death of millions.  Boeing isn't going to risk anything that calls their ability to assess and correct in real time into question.

Unless they think they can get away with it.