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Author Topic: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case  (Read 8024 times)

Not A Serious Person

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44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« on: March 12, 2019, 10:37:13 AM »
Will this lead to sweeping changes in the recruitment of athletes to non-revenue sports?

 

Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin indicted in case alleging bribery to get kids into colleges
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2019/03/12/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-admissions-bribery-case-reports/3139204002/

Federal authorities charged college coaches and others, including actresses Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin, in a sweeping admissions bribery case in federal court Tuesday.

The racketeering conspiracy charges were unsealed Tuesday against the coaches at elite schools including Wake Forest University, Georgetown and the University of Southern California.

Prosecutors say parents paid an admissions consultant $25 million from 2011 through Feb. 2019 to bribe coaches and administrators to label their children as recruited athletes to boost their chances of getting into schools.

Prosecutors allege that fake athletic profiles were also made to make students look like strong high school athletes when they actually weren't.

Authorities say the consulting company also bribed administrators of college entrance exams to allow a Florida man to take the tests on behalf of students or replace their answers with his.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2019, 10:41:07 AM »
Looks like they also turned Derek Rose path to Memphis into a full-time business.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-uncover-massive-college-entrance-exam-cheating-plot-n982136

The plot involved students who attended or were seeking to attend Georgetown University, Stanford University, UCLA, the University of San Diego, USC, University of Texas, Wake Forest, and Yale, according to federal prosecutors.

There's no indication that the schools were involved in any of the wrong-doing.

In all, 44 people, some of them college coaches, have been charged thus far.

Prosecutors said the scheme was masterminded by William Rick Singer, the founder of a for-profit college preparation business based in Newport Beach, California.

Parents paid Singer between $15,000 and $75,000 per test for someone else to take the SAT or ACT exams in place of their college-aged sons or daughters, according to the court papers.

Singer facilitated the cheating by advising students to seek "extended time on the exams, including by having their children purport to have learning disabilities in order to obtain medical documentation that ACT," the indictment says.

Prosecutors said Singer used the cash to bribe two people who administered the exams — Igor Dvorsiky, of Los Angeles, and Lisa "Niki" Williams, of Houston.

Dvorsiky and Williams, in exchange for receiving the payments, allowed Mark Riddell, a Florida man hired by Singer, to secretly take the tests or to replace the children’s answers with his own, according to the indictment.

Riddell was paid roughly $10,000 per test, money that was often funneled through a charity account set up by Singer, the indictment says.
Western Progressives have one worldview, the correct one.

Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 10:44:14 AM »
Wow ... this is not going to play well!


https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/12/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-arrested-college-admissions-bribery-scam/

We've learned Felicity has been arrested and is presently in custody. We're told she will be released on a signature bond ... which essentially is a promise to appear in court. 

As for Loughlin, she and her husband -- Mossimo Giannulli, the founder of Mossimo clothing -- allegedly paid $500,000 to have their 2 daughters designated as recruits for the crew team at USC ... despite the fact they did not actually participate in crew. However, the feds say Mossimo sent action photos of their daughters on rowing machines. Mossimo was also charged in the indictment.

As for Huffman, she and her husband, William H. Macy, allegedly made a charitable contribution of $15,000 to participate in a college entrance exam cheating scheme on behalf of their eldest daughter.  The indictment says the daughter was given twice the amount of time to take the SAT as other students and the paid proctor agreed to secretly correct her answers afterwards.

The indictment says the girl received a score of 1420 on her SAT ... an improvement of approximately 400 points over her PSAT.

Macy was not indicted.
Western Progressives have one worldview, the correct one.

jesmu84

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 11:02:29 AM »
1%ers at it again!

4everwarriors

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 11:04:12 AM »
Hard to be a 1 percenter. Outta try it sumtyme, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

jesmu84

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2019, 11:05:41 AM »
Oh, and the payments were tax-deductible. Nice

Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2019, 11:06:25 AM »
Prior to WW2, there was essentially no such thing as an "application" with qualifications to get into college.  You could pretty much go anywhere as long as you had the money.

Back then colleges had enormous freshman classes for english, math, etc.  So, getting into Harvard was easy, just go the Cambridge with a check.  However, once in, getting through the Freshman classes and staying in Harvard was very hard.  They washed out a lot of kids.

So prior to WW2, easy to get in, hard to finish with a degree.

Today, impossible to get in, 99% that get in get a degree.

Seems like we need a balance between the two schemes.
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jesmu84

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2019, 11:15:42 AM »

Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 11:25:35 AM »
Also indicted was for taking bribes to take kids as recruited athletes were they were not ....

• Admissions Counselor at Stanford
• Sailing Coach at Stanford
• The former Men's and Women's tennis coach at Georgetown
• Associate Athletic Director of USC
• Women's Soccer Coach, and Assistant Coach at USC
• Water Polo Coach at USC
• Men's Soccer Coach at UCLA
• Women's Volleyball Coach at Wake Forest
• Women's Soccer coach at Yale
• Tennis coach at UT-Austin
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:29:53 AM by Rick Majerus' Towel »
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Pakuni

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 11:37:26 AM »
Felicity Huffman
@FelicityHuffman

What are your best “hacks” for the back-to-school season?
2:10pm · 25 Aug 2016

tower912

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 11:48:48 AM »
I read this title and keep thinking of the song '88 lines about 44 women.'
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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warriorchick

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 11:51:15 AM »
Never mind all that, what's Disco Hippie's take?
Have some patience, FFS.

Cheeks

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 12:51:04 PM »
Never mind all that, what's Disco Hippie's take?

Let me log in as him in a few minutes and I will give you his take.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

warriorchick

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 07:07:17 PM »
Let me log in as him in a few minutes and I will give you his take.

No worries, Cheeks.  We all know you love Marquette too much to disparage it as much as D.H. does.
Have some patience, FFS.

Cheeks

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 07:09:50 PM »
No worries, Cheeks.  We all know you love Marquette too much to disparage it as much as D.H. does.

This is true, I do love the university to the core....but have plenty of concerns, too. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Herman Cain

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 10:16:29 PM »
Prior to WW2, there was essentially no such thing as an "application" with qualifications to get into college.  You could pretty much go anywhere as long as you had the money.

Back then colleges had enormous freshman classes for english, math, etc.  So, getting into Harvard was easy, just go the Cambridge with a check.  However, once in, getting through the Freshman classes and staying in Harvard was very hard.  They washed out a lot of kids.

So prior to WW2, easy to get in, hard to finish with a degree.

Today, impossible to get in, 99% that get in get a degree.

Seems like we need a balance between the two schemes.
Glad that you pointed out the old way they did admissions. I am not sure many people today know that was the way things were done.
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
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mudeltaforcegurl

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 10:34:42 PM »
This story is disgusting. It makes me sick.

MU82

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2019, 08:52:13 AM »
nm
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:10:28 AM by MU82 »
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Disco Hippie

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2019, 01:42:08 PM »
No worries, Cheeks.  We all know you love Marquette too much to disparage it as much as D.H. does.

My take is that I find this story as disturbing and abhorrent as everyone else.  Why anyone would think otherwise is offensive to me, and instead of disparaging my alma mater, I have gone out of my way to evangelize the value of a Marquette education to high school Jr's and Seniors in my community, served as mentor for the last 12 years to current students in both the Business and Comm schools, and consistently made modest donations to the extent I can afford. Not enough for them to take me seriously but given only something like 8% of alums apparently have ever donated a cent according to Marquette, the fact that I do firmly places me on the list of alums who actually care, which I know all Scoopers do as well.   I still think MU's 89% acceptance rate, which is what it was last year  is problematic, and although I may be one of the few Scoopers that feel this way, I am hardly the only alum with that POV.   

I know this because multiple admissions counselors as well as a high ranking administrator have told me personally that MU has received "significant" push back on this issue not just from alums, but more importantly from current students, who they value the opinion of even more, since they changed their enrollment strategy.  Thankfully they are taking steps to correct it, but at the end of the day MU is never going to be an elite school and I'm totally fine with that.

All I've ever said was that the difference in perception between a school that accepts 68% of applicants versus 90% is substantial, and that single statistic is in many cases, discouraging, instead of encouraging exactly the types of high performing students that Marquette claims to want to enroll more of from even applying there.   

Whether or not it should is certainly a valid question, and even I will acknowledge that it probably shouldn't, but as long as enough people think it still does, Marquette can't just dismiss it out of hand.  At the end of the day, brand matters, and not just to the super rich either.

Would it be such a bad thing if Marquette were the type of school where parents and their high school senior kids are willing to go to great (legal and non criminal) lengths to have a shot at going there?  I can't imagine why anyone that cares about Marquette would think so, but perfectly content that it isn't.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:46:25 PM by Disco Hippie »

warriorchick

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2019, 01:51:19 PM »


Would it be such a bad thing if Marquette were the type of school where parents and their high school senior kids are willing to go to great (legal and non criminal) lengths to have a shot at going there? 

There are indeed a great number of families who go to great lengths to go to school at Marquette.  But they aren't necessarily the types of folks you think Marquette should be interested in attracting.
Have some patience, FFS.

Disco Hippie

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2019, 02:33:33 PM »
There are indeed a great number of families who go to great lengths to go to school at Marquette.  But they aren't necessarily the types of folks you think Marquette should be interested in attracting.

Your first sentence is absolutely right!  Just not your second.  I fully acknowledge the great lengths and substantial financial sacrifices most families need to make to put even one kid through college, let alone several and not just at expensive private schools but even more so for state universities in which they're residents of.  I get it, but this thread isn't about paying, it's about getting in in the first place.

I applaud MU's diversity efforts and think they need to continue doing everything they possibly can to make higher education more accessible and affordable to prospective students from lower income families that are the first in their families to even go to college.  I want them to enroll MORE of these students, not less.  What I reject is the notion that just because these students happen to be from low income families, that they're happy to just go to any college, and that the brand doesn't matter to them.  It absolutely does, at least as much, if not more to these types of students than your garden variety upper middle class punk.  Don't get me wrong, I still want MU to be attractive to UMC punks as well, and I fully acknowledge there are lot more of the latter than the former in my community but I'll never say we don't need much more of the former. 


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StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 11:21:52 AM »
Good!

Not good.  It's stupid and a waste of time.  It's never been a secret that there are exceptions made for athletes in the admissions process.  The fact that some of these exceptions that have historically been set aside for athletes were used for non-athletes doesn't harm other applicants.  Now, I suppose a rower who applied to USC (or a tennis player at Georgetown, etc.) might have a legitimate beef, but the average applicant wasn't affected by this at all.  If they weren't suing last week because rowers were getting an advantage, there's no reason to be suing this week because some actress's kid took one of the slots that have been reserved for rowers for years.  And the same thing goes for the "it cheapens my degree" crowd.

Don't get me wrong -- I think that what these people did was unethical and probably illegal (and the related tax fraud was undoubtedly illegal).  But these class action lawsuits are ridiculous.
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Pakuni

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 11:43:27 AM »
Not good.  It's stupid and a waste of time.  It's never been a secret that there are exceptions made for athletes in the admissions process.  The fact that some of these exceptions that have historically been set aside for athletes were used for non-athletes doesn't harm other applicants.  Now, I suppose a rower who applied to USC (or a tennis player at Georgetown, etc.) might have a legitimate beef, but the average applicant wasn't affected by this at all.  If they weren't suing last week because rowers were getting an advantage, there's no reason to be suing this week because some actress's kid took one of the slots that have been reserved for rowers for years.  And the same thing goes for the "it cheapens my degree" crowd.

Don't get me wrong -- I think that what these people did was unethical and probably illegal (and the related tax fraud was undoubtedly illegal).  But these class action lawsuits are ridiculous.

Agreed. This is a shameless money grab. I'm not sure how the plaintiff here proves standing, much less actual damages. But hey, $500 BILLION seems reasonable.
The sad part is, given all the related bad PR and legal costs, it's probably in the universities' best interests to pay off this troll (and the others that'll surely follow) to make her go away. And that'll likely be covered by schools' insurance, which in turn could drive up costs for everyone else.
So, yeah, not good.

StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 11:53:45 AM »
Agreed. This is a shameless money grab. I'm not sure how the plaintiff here proves standing, much less actual damages. But hey, $500 BILLION seems reasonable.
The sad part is, given all the related bad PR and legal costs, it's probably in the universities' best interests to pay off this troll (and the others that'll surely follow) to make her go away. And that'll likely be covered by schools' insurance, which in turn could drive up costs for everyone else.
So, yeah, not good.

The fact that this is a mother suing on behalf of her (presumably) adult son just confirms what I think about this lawsuit.  If the young man feels that he was legally wronged, he should file a lawsuit.  The fact that mommy filed this $500 Billion lawsuit on behalf of her precious son who was denied admission speaks volumes.
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GooooMarquette

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 12:01:33 PM »
Agreed. This is a shameless money grab. I'm not sure how the plaintiff here proves standing, much less actual damages. But hey, $500 BILLION seems reasonable.
The sad part is, given all the related bad PR and legal costs, it's probably in the universities' best interests to pay off this troll (and the others that'll surely follow) to make her go away. And that'll likely be covered by schools' insurance, which in turn could drive up costs for everyone else.
So, yeah, not good.


The plaintiff isn't suing the schools...she is suing Loughlin, Huffman and the other indicted parties. Like you said, though, I doubt she can show standing or damages.


StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 12:34:31 PM »

The plaintiff isn't suing the schools...she is suing Loughlin, Huffman and the other indicted parties. Like you said, though, I doubt she can show standing or damages.

Yeah.  That's one of the things that bothers me.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for the indicted parties, but it's absurd that they have to deal with this BS.  They've all got plenty of problems already...now they have to devote some time and attention (i.e., money) to this frivolous lawsuit.
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MU82

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 12:51:24 PM »
First of all, when I gave the article a quick read of the top few paragraphs, I thought the ones being sued were Huffman, Loughlin et al. And that's what my "Good!" was about.

And that seems to be true of the first plaintiff mentioned. Others, however, are suing the schools. I mostly agree that they shouldn't have to deal with this -- and from what I have read, the plaintiffs don't have much of a case against them.

However, for the sake of playing devil's advocate ...

Two people die after eating McDonald's pies because it's discovered the pies contain arsenic (this didn't really happen; I am presenting it as a hypothetical case). An investigation shows that one deranged employee put the arsenic in the pies. The families of the dead people sue McDonald's. Is the company culpable at all because it employed the deranged person and the poisoning happened "on the company's watch"?

I legitimately don't know the answer to that question. Nor do I know if I am straying too far afield in comparing this case to that hypothetical Mickey D's case.

I find these kinds of things to be very interesting, and in this college bribery case it will be fascinating to find out who gets in trouble for what and how they are punished.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
First of all, when I gave the article a quick read of the top few paragraphs, I thought the ones being sued were Huffman, Loughlin et al. And that's what my "Good!" was about.

And that seems to be true of the first plaintiff mentioned. Others, however, are suing the schools. I mostly agree that they shouldn't have to deal with this -- and from what I have read, the plaintiffs don't have much of a case against them.

However, for the sake of playing devil's advocate ...

Two people die after eating McDonald's pies because it's discovered the pies contain arsenic (this didn't really happen; I am presenting it as a hypothetical case). An investigation shows that one deranged employee put the arsenic in the pies. The families of the dead people sue McDonald's. Is the company culpable at all because it employed the deranged person and the poisoning happened "on the company's watch"?

I legitimately don't know the answer to that question. Nor do I know if I am straying too far afield in comparing this case to that hypothetical Mickey D's case.

I find these kinds of things to be very interesting, and in this college bribery case it will be fascinating to find out who gets in trouble for what and how they are punished.

You're referring to the legal doctrine of respondeat superior -- when an employer is held liable for the actions of its employees.  Oversimplification alert!  Generally, and employer can be held liable for its employees' negligence or omissions.  However, employers generally are not responsible for intentional wrongful acts that are outside the scope of the employee's job.  Where an employer can get in trouble for such intentional acts is when they were negligent in hiring the employee, or when the wrongful acts advance the employer's interest and are then ratified and/or approved by the employer.

In your hypothetical, there is no doubt that McD's would get sued because that's where the money is.  But as long as there isn't evidence to think that McD's knew that they were hiring a homicidal maniac or somehow knew what was going on, they'd almost certainly win.  That doesn't mean that wouldn't pay a little something to make it go away...but that's an entirely different issue.

As I said, this is a general discussion and oversimplified. These issues can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
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GooooMarquette

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2019, 01:59:13 PM »
First of all, when I gave the article a quick read of the top few paragraphs, I thought the ones being sued were Huffman, Loughlin et al. And that's what my "Good!" was about.

And that seems to be true of the first plaintiff mentioned. Others, however, are suing the schools. I mostly agree that they shouldn't have to deal with this -- and from what I have read, the plaintiffs don't have much of a case against them.

However, for the sake of playing devil's advocate ...

Two people die after eating McDonald's pies because it's discovered the pies contain arsenic (this didn't really happen; I am presenting it as a hypothetical case). An investigation shows that one deranged employee put the arsenic in the pies. The families of the dead people sue McDonald's. Is the company culpable at all because it employed the deranged person and the poisoning happened "on the company's watch"?

I legitimately don't know the answer to that question. Nor do I know if I am straying too far afield in comparing this case to that hypothetical Mickey D's case.

I find these kinds of things to be very interesting, and in this college bribery case it will be fascinating to find out who gets in trouble for what and how they are punished.

The answer is that McD's probably would be liable, as StillAWarrior stated, under the doctrine of respondeat superior.

But in that case, you have clear plaintiffs (families of the deceased) and clear injuries (dead people).

The case of suing the schools really has no clear plaintiffs. My daughter got waitlisted at Yale, but would she have been accepted if Huffman's daughter wasn't? Who knows? All in all, far more vague, as it isn't even clear who has a right to sue, and what their "injuries" were.

Pakuni

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2019, 02:02:11 PM »

The plaintiff isn't suing the schools...she is suing Loughlin, Huffman and the other indicted parties. Like you said, though, I doubt she can show standing or damages.

My mistake on the defendants.

StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2019, 02:34:57 PM »
The answer is that McD's probably would be liable, as StillAWarrior stated, under the doctrine of respondeat superior.

I want to make it clear -- I stated exactly the opposite of that.  Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.  I have no doubt that McD's would get sued, but I think McD's would win the lawsuit and would not be liable.  If, as MU82 hypothesized, a rogue employee poisoned customers without McD's knowledge, it is extremely unlikely that McD's would be liable.  At least in jurisdictions I'm familiar with.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2019, 04:06:43 PM »
So every waitlisted or rejected applicant has the right to be added to the class action suit? I am glad MU has such a high acceptance rate. It may suppress the USNWR ratings but it limits the class action lawsuits.

Does anyone remember a few years ago when Chicago pols we're pulling similar stunts to get various kiddos into U of I? 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 04:09:37 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2019, 04:15:02 PM »
So every waitlisted or rejected applicant has the right to be added to the class action suit? I am glad MU has such a high acceptance rate. It may suppress the USNWR ratings but it limits the class action lawsuits.

Does anyone remember  a few years ago over the course of recorded history when Chicago pols were (sic) pulling similar stunts to get various kiddos into U of I anything and everything?

FIFY

Pakuni

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2019, 10:54:44 AM »
I want to make it clear -- I stated exactly the opposite of that.  Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.  I have no doubt that McD's would get sued, but I think McD's would win the lawsuit and would not be liable.  If, as MU82 hypothesized, a rogue employee poisoned customers without McD's knowledge, it is extremely unlikely that McD's would be liable.  At least in jurisdictions I'm familiar with.

This is where facts and evidence matter. Obviously if - in the admissions case - the universities were aware or should have been aware, of these employees' actions, then they could be find liable. Likewise, if a court/jury finds a university failed to sufficiently train and monitor their employees, it could be find liable.
I would suspect that the universities' defense here would be that they properly trained these employees, who went to great lenghts to hide their activities.

StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2019, 02:18:25 PM »
This is where facts and evidence matter. Obviously if - in the admissions case - the universities were aware or should have been aware, of these employees' actions, then they could be find liable. Likewise, if a court/jury finds a university failed to sufficiently train and monitor their employees, it could be find liable.
I would suspect that the universities' defense here would be that they properly trained these employees, who went to great lenghts to hide their activities.

Absolutely. USC comes off as more culpable because there were more senior people in athletics involved and money was being paid into athletic department coffers. That’s much harder to say they shouldn’t have been aware. Also, there is an argument that the university ratified - and certainly benefitted from - the activity because they got some of the money. From what I’ve read, Georgetown (and some others) seem very different because a single rogue coach pocketed the money. I think the schools in those situations have a better argument that they are not responsible.
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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2019, 11:07:18 AM »
Still, Goooo and others, thanks for the conversation.

I was on a jury about 15 years ago that ended up awarding $20 million plus to the family of a girl who was poisoned after a Walgreen's pharmacist put the wrong stuff in a prescription. The trial was all about damages, as Walgreen's admitted the error. But it was clearly accidental -- the pharmacist didn't want to poison the girl or anybody else. So that's different, too.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2019, 12:10:10 PM »
Still, Goooo and others, thanks for the conversation.

I was on a jury about 15 years ago that ended up awarding $20 million plus to the family of a girl who was poisoned after a Walgreen's pharmacist put the wrong stuff in a prescription. The trial was all about damages, as Walgreen's admitted the error. But it was clearly accidental -- the pharmacist didn't want to poison the girl or anybody else. So that's different, too.

That's awful.  And goes straight to my point - employers generally are responsible for their employees' mistakes/negligence.  They generally are not responsible for their employees' intentional wrongful acts.

And thank you for the discussion.  I absolutely love scoop when we discuss subjects without getting into politics and/or arguing about certain posters.
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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2019, 03:40:16 PM »
That's awful.  And goes straight to my point - employers generally are responsible for their employees' mistakes/negligence.  They generally are not responsible for their employees' intentional wrongful acts.

And thank you for the discussion.  I absolutely love scoop when we discuss subjects without getting into politics and/or arguing about certain posters.

Yessir!
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dgies9156

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2019, 04:08:56 PM »
This one bothers me on several fronts, so I don't know where to begin.

1) The notion of extra help for ACT/SAT is a necessary and often essential component to getting learning disabled students properly tested for college. There's nothing wrong with it so long as it is administered properly and there really is no cheating. My fear is that the extra time and special proctoring -- within the rules -- will be a changed in a way that trashes the ability of learning disabled students to put their best foot forward.

2) Colleges need to be more forthcoming about how they admit students. Period. So you want to go to Zebra Institute of Technology? Here's how we decide who gets in our class. I would not be surprised when this is over if Congress passes some type of truth in admissions act for colleges that accept federal funding. The act should say a college has to disclose how it selected its annual admissions at the risk of losing federal grants and ability to use federal aid for students.

3) Ironically, years ago, the University of Tennessee had a simple admissions policy. Get an "X" on the ACT, have a diploma from an accredited high school in the State of Tennessee and be a Tennessee resident and you're admitted. No guarantee you'll stay, but the University will admit you. So what happened? A third-rate, failing news magazine decided to rank colleges and every university public relations department repositioned themselves to game the third-rate, failing news magazine's faux rankings. When easy entry becomes a negative on the third-rate, failing news magazine's survey, change a basic operating procedure for the university.

4) Finally, and this is for Disco Hippie: I was one of those Upper Middle Class Punks ("UMPs") that you called out earlier in this thread. My father and mother saved an enormous amount of money and gave up a lot in their lives so my brothers and sisters and I could go to college. Four of us ended up at Marquette without a dime of aid. Dad was a Marquette Engineer and saw the value of a Marquette education. If this makes us UMPs, I plead guilty. We paid our parents back by making good use of our degrees and our education from Marquette. In my case, all I'll say is that my wife and I more than paid it forward.

MU82

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2019, 10:25:17 PM »
This one bothers me on several fronts, so I don't know where to begin.

1) The notion of extra help for ACT/SAT is a necessary and often essential component to getting learning disabled students properly tested for college. There's nothing wrong with it so long as it is administered properly and there really is no cheating. My fear is that the extra time and special proctoring -- within the rules -- will be a changed in a way that trashes the ability of learning disabled students to put their best foot forward.

2) Colleges need to be more forthcoming about how they admit students. Period. So you want to go to Zebra Institute of Technology? Here's how we decide who gets in our class. I would not be surprised when this is over if Congress passes some type of truth in admissions act for colleges that accept federal funding. The act should say a college has to disclose how it selected its annual admissions at the risk of losing federal grants and ability to use federal aid for students.

3) Ironically, years ago, the University of Tennessee had a simple admissions policy. Get an "X" on the ACT, have a diploma from an accredited high school in the State of Tennessee and be a Tennessee resident and you're admitted. No guarantee you'll stay, but the University will admit you. So what happened? A third-rate, failing news magazine decided to rank colleges and every university public relations department repositioned themselves to game the third-rate, failing news magazine's faux rankings. When easy entry becomes a negative on the third-rate, failing news magazine's survey, change a basic operating procedure for the university.

4) Finally, and this is for Disco Hippie: I was one of those Upper Middle Class Punks ("UMPs") that you called out earlier in this thread. My father and mother saved an enormous amount of money and gave up a lot in their lives so my brothers and sisters and I could go to college. Four of us ended up at Marquette without a dime of aid. Dad was a Marquette Engineer and saw the value of a Marquette education. If this makes us UMPs, I plead guilty. We paid our parents back by making good use of our degrees and our education from Marquette. In my case, all I'll say is that my wife and I more than paid it forward.

Superb post, my friend. Especially No. 4. Your parents did right by you, and I am sure you have made them proud many times over.
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Cheeks

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2019, 11:04:49 PM »
I hired a tutor for my daughter and her ACT two months ago.  The agency sent an email out to me on Thursday making sure they knew everything was cool. It was, but I don't blame them.  Tutors hired all the time, but kids have to take the tests.  That's the part that is sinister, along with the fake athletics, etc.

The tax part, already hearing some over rotation on that which is going to hurt legitimate donations to some schools if it goes through with what some pols are talking about. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Disco Hippie

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2019, 09:42:02 AM »
This one bothers me on several fronts, so I don't know where to begin.

1) The notion of extra help for ACT/SAT is a necessary and often essential component to getting learning disabled students properly tested for college. There's nothing wrong with it so long as it is administered properly and there really is no cheating. My fear is that the extra time and special proctoring -- within the rules -- will be a changed in a way that trashes the ability of learning disabled students to put their best foot forward.

2) Colleges need to be more forthcoming about how they admit students. Period. So you want to go to Zebra Institute of Technology? Here's how we decide who gets in our class. I would not be surprised when this is over if Congress passes some type of truth in admissions act for colleges that accept federal funding. The act should say a college has to disclose how it selected its annual admissions at the risk of losing federal grants and ability to use federal aid for students.

3) Ironically, years ago, the University of Tennessee had a simple admissions policy. Get an "X" on the ACT, have a diploma from an accredited high school in the State of Tennessee and be a Tennessee resident and you're admitted. No guarantee you'll stay, but the University will admit you. So what happened? A third-rate, failing news magazine decided to rank colleges and every university public relations department repositioned themselves to game the third-rate, failing news magazine's faux rankings. When easy entry becomes a negative on the third-rate, failing news magazine's survey, change a basic operating procedure for the university.

4) Finally, and this is for Disco Hippie: I was one of those Upper Middle Class Punks ("UMPs") that you called out earlier in this thread. My father and mother saved an enormous amount of money and gave up a lot in their lives so my brothers and sisters and I could go to college. Four of us ended up at Marquette without a dime of aid. Dad was a Marquette Engineer and saw the value of a Marquette education. If this makes us UMPs, I plead guilty. We paid our parents back by making good use of our degrees and our education from Marquette. In my case, all I'll say is that my wife and I more than paid it forward.

I agree with everything you said Diges!  I too, am a card carrying UMP so that was an attempt at self deprecating humor.  Like you, my parents also made tremendous sacrifices to put me and my brother and sister through college.  Because I am one, I have nothing against UMP's, but it seems that MU, under the current administration does, and like the democratic party in 2016, they seem to have forgotten who their core constituency is.  They may not want to acknowledge it, but at the end of the day UMP's are MU's largest constituency and they need a lot of them to thrive.  That's not to say they shouldn't continue everything they're already doing and more on the diversity front and in trying to make higher education more affordable and accessible to students from lower income backgrounds, they absolutely should, but they need to find a balance there.

Like it or not, the third rate news magazine will continue to rank colleges and universities.  It's one of their highest selling issues each year, and a strong argument can be made that their continued publication is the only reason said third rate news magazine still exists.  You're right that colleges and universities make decisions and policies based solely on the existence of these rankings that are in many cases, anathema to what higher education should ideally accomplish.  But as long as these rankings continue to exist, Marquette needs to pay more attention to them and how they influence people's perceptions, because they are not an influential or wealthy enough institution to ignore the rankings and thumb their noses at them the way they have.   

The only way they'll become less influential is if the Ivy's and their ilk thumb their noses at the rankings and say it's all nonsense.  Perhaps this case is what eventually will cause the entire thing to come tumbling down and force the most prestigious institutions to re-evaluate what their purpose really is.  That would be wonderful but I'm not going to hold my breath.

MU's reputation in the Northeast region has taken a hit, not so much because of their USNWR raking but because of the 89% admit rate.   Too many prospective students and their parents see that and immediately think WTF?  They've become a more regional school because of it.

If you look at pages 2 and 3 of the attached PDF from MU's office of institutional research, see how MU compares to the other institutions MU administrators hand chose to be compared against?   We have half the number of applicants, double the acceptance rate, and our yield (the percentage of admitted students who choose to enroll) is still 8 points lower than the average of the the other schools.  What this tells me is that the current approach is not the right one.


« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 11:46:20 AM by Disco Hippie »

Benny B

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »
I want to make it clear -- I stated exactly the opposite of that.  Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.  I have no doubt that McD's would get sued, but I think McD's would win the lawsuit and would not be liable.  If, as MU82 hypothesized, a rogue employee poisoned customers without McD's knowledge, it is extremely unlikely that McD's would be liable.  At least in jurisdictions I'm familiar with.

Apparently you're not familiar with California.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Cheeks

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2019, 12:02:29 PM »
I agree with everything you said Diges!  I too, am a card carrying UMP so that was an attempt at self deprecating humor.  Like you, my parents also made tremendous sacrifices to put me and my brother and sister through college.  Because I am one, I have nothing against UMP's, but it seems that MU, under the current administration does, and like the democratic party in 2016, they seem to have forgotten who their core constituency is.  They may not want to acknowledge it, but at the end of the day UMP's are MU's largest constituency and they need a lot of them to thrive.  That's not to say they shouldn't continue everything they're already doing and more on the diversity front and in trying to make higher education more affordable and accessible to students from lower income backgrounds, they absolutely should, but they need to find a balance there.

Like it or not, the third rate news magazine will continue to rank colleges and universities.  It's one of their highest selling issues each year, and a strong argument can be made that their continued publication is the only reason said third rate news magazine still exists.  You're right that colleges and universities make decisions and policies based solely on the existence of these rankings that are in many cases, anathema to what higher education should ideally accomplish.  But as long as these rankings continue to exist, Marquette needs to pay more attention to them and how they influence people's perceptions, because they are not an influential or wealthy enough institution to ignore the rankings and thumb their noses at them the way they have.   

The only way they'll become less influential is if the Ivy's and their ilk thumb their noses at the rankings and say it's all nonsense.  Perhaps this case is what eventually will cause the entire thing to come tumbling down and force the most prestigious institutions to re-evaluate what their purpose really is.  That would be wonderful but I'm not going to hold my breath.

MU's reputation in the Northeast region has taken a hit, not so much because of their USNWR raking but because of the 89% admit rate.   Too many prospective students and their parents see that and immediately think WTF?  They've become a more regional school because of it.

If you look at pages 2 and 3 of the attached PDF from MU's office of institutional research, see how MU compares to the other institutions MU administrators hand chose to be compared against?   We have half the number of applicants, double the acceptance rate, and our yield (the percentage of admitted students who choose to enroll) is still 8 points lower than the average of the the other schools.  What this tells me is that the current approach is not the right one.

This feels like a yield problem.  MU is accepting a bunch, but the yield is lower than the other schools.  As a result, my guess is MU has to accept more to get the numbers they need.  We are probably the number two choice by many students vs those peer schools.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2019, 01:32:31 PM »
The Onion right on queue.


SPORTS NEWS IN BRIEF
NCAA Launches Investigation Into Why It Wasn’t Making Millions Off Recent College Admissions Scandal

https://sports.theonion.com/ncaa-launches-investigation-into-why-it-wasn-t-making-m-1833381271

Disco Hippie

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2019, 08:54:45 PM »
This feels like a yield problem.  MU is accepting a bunch, but the yield is lower than the other schools.  As a result, my guess is MU has to accept more to get the numbers they need.  We are probably the number two choice by many students vs those peer schools.

No doubt that's the case.  What I don't understand is their lack of interest in trying to become more of those students' first choice.  I mean why bother comparing themselves to those other schools in the first place if they're unable, or unwilling to improve.

Efficient Frontier

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2019, 05:13:25 PM »
My take is that I find this story as disturbing and abhorrent as everyone else.  Why anyone would think otherwise is offensive to me, and instead of disparaging my alma mater, I have gone out of my way to evangelize the value of a Marquette education to high school Jr's and Seniors in my community, served as mentor for the last 12 years to current students in both the Business and Comm schools, and consistently made modest donations to the extent I can afford. Not enough for them to take me seriously but given only something like 8% of alums apparently have ever donated a cent according to Marquette, the fact that I do firmly places me on the list of alums who actually care, which I know all Scoopers do as well.   I still think MU's 89% acceptance rate, which is what it was last year  is problematic, and although I may be one of the few Scoopers that feel this way, I am hardly the only alum with that POV.   

I know this because multiple admissions counselors as well as a high ranking administrator have told me personally that MU has received "significant" push back on this issue not just from alums, but more importantly from current students, who they value the opinion of even more, since they changed their enrollment strategy.  Thankfully they are taking steps to correct it, but at the end of the day MU is never going to be an elite school and I'm totally fine with that.

All I've ever said was that the difference in perception between a school that accepts 68% of applicants versus 90% is substantial, and that single statistic is in many cases, discouraging, instead of encouraging exactly the types of high performing students that Marquette claims to want to enroll more of from even applying there.   

Whether or not it should is certainly a valid question, and even I will acknowledge that it probably shouldn't, but as long as enough people think it still does, Marquette can't just dismiss it out of hand.  At the end of the day, brand matters, and not just to the super rich either.

Would it be such a bad thing if Marquette were the type of school where parents and their high school senior kids are willing to go to great (legal and non criminal) lengths to have a shot at going there?  I can't imagine why anyone that cares about Marquette would think so, but perfectly content that it isn't.

“The ev­i­dence shows that a col­lege de­gree de­liv­ers a large and sus­tained in­come pre­mium over a high school diploma, but a se­lec­tive col­lege doesn’t make the pre­mium big­ger. There are ex­cep­tions, but most peo­ple who pros­per af­ter grad­u­at­ing from such a col­lege would likely have pros­pered if they had at­tended a less pres­ti­gious in­sti­tu­tion as well. Af­ter all, the chil­dren whose par­ents were charged last week were born with wealth, con­nec­tions, and de­voted par­ents will­ing to do al­most any­thing for them, a recipe for suc­cess no mat­ter where they grad­u­ate from.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-elite-college-worth-it-maybe-not-11553084146?emailToken=c479cc580525283d799171b8bdc12affJjxXzHCrb5y3+dELRnBX6MdvSCGq0vt8xABiQtrcX8mJmiUsz4W+Aa4hX+rxpDi2tXOoxBrro37C11e48giMKg%3D%3D&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2019, 05:31:33 PM »
They are eating their own at USC ...

Suspicious USC students officially accuse SIXTY of their classmates of cheating their way into the school amid 'hysteria' over bribery scandal, as officials promise to expel guilty offenders
* The school's Judicial Council is seriously investigating three of 60 complaints
* USC has rejected six prospective students with ties to the scandal
* A number of enrolled students linked to the scandal have been told they cannot register for classes until their level of culpability is determined
* That is not a major blow to most students as open enrollment for fall classes  does not open until August, and summer session enrollment is not until May
* It comes as Lori Loughlin's daughters both withdrew from the school
* Loughlin allegedly paid $500,000 in bribes to get them designated as athletes

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6830087/Suspicious-USC-students-accuse-SIXTY-classmates-cheating-way-school.html
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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2019, 02:09:31 PM »
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/04/04/bought-fencing-coach-house-then-his-son-got-into-harvard/EIWVMIxUFQ1XweY1xfB1GK/story.html


Quote
During the weeks Zhao’s Needham house sat on the market for $699,000, it caught the eye of a family looking to buy a property and flip it. They were surprised by the price, and even more surprised it had sold a year earlier for almost $1 million.

They didn’t buy it, but looked up the buyer and seller in property records. They Googled them, and joked among themselves there might have been some funny business between Harvard’s fencing coach and the family of a recruit.

In March, after federal prosecutors announced the indictments of dozens in the massive college admissions scam, they decided to call the Globe.

This seems more like retaliation by a spurned buyer than an admissions scandal.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2019, 02:36:21 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/what-college-admissions-scandal-reveals/586468/

"They Had It Coming


The parents indicted in the college-admissions scandal were responding to a changing America, with rage at being robbed of what they believed was rightfully theirs."

Interesting, I didn't know the scam about untimed testing.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

forgetful

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2019, 05:30:46 PM »
Here's the thing. All these "high-powered" people had no problem with this, because for many of them, it is how they got to where they were. Cheating, bribing, gaming the system that they designed so that people like them can stay in power.

Rules are for suckers, to these people. They are meant to keep others down, and ensure that they are at the top.

StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2019, 08:35:55 AM »
It doesn't excuse what she did, but at least Felicity Huffman knows how to write an apology.  I'm often amazed how celebrities draft half-hearted and ambiguous non-apologies when they're in trouble.  Huffman did a pretty good job of making an unqualified apology.

"I am pleading guilty to the charge brought against me by the United States Attorney's Office.  I am in full acceptance of my guilt, and with deep regret and shame over what I have done, I accept full responsibility for my actions and will accept the consequences that stem from those actions.

"I am ashamed of the pain I have caused my daughter, my family, my friends, my colleagues and the educational community. I want to apologize to them and, especially, I want to apologize to the students who work hard every day to get into college, and to their parents who make tremendous sacrifices to support their children and do so honestly.

"My daughter knew absolutely nothing about my actions, and in my misguided and profoundly wrong way, I have betrayed her. This transgression toward her and the public I will carry for the rest of my life. My desire to help my daughter is no excuse to break the law or engage in dishonesty."
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

Benny B

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2019, 09:59:35 AM »
It doesn't excuse what she did, but at least Felicity Huffman knows how to write an apology.  I'm often amazed how celebrities draft half-hearted and ambiguous non-apologies when they're in trouble.  Huffman did a pretty good job of making an unqualified apology.

"I am pleading guilty to the charge brought against me by the United States Attorney's Office.  I am in full acceptance of my guilt, and with deep regret and shame over what I have done, I accept full responsibility for my actions and will accept the consequences that stem from those actions.

"I am ashamed of the pain I have caused my daughter, my family, my friends, my colleagues and the educational community. I want to apologize to them and, especially, I want to apologize to the students who work hard every day to get into college, and to their parents who make tremendous sacrifices to support their children and do so honestly.

"My daughter knew absolutely nothing about my actions, and in my misguided and profoundly wrong way, I have betrayed her. This transgression toward her and the public I will carry for the rest of my life. My desire to help my daughter is no excuse to break the law or engage in dishonesty."


Imma going to make the boldest prediction Scoop has ever known in saying that Felicity hired someone to write the apology for her.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

StillAWarrior

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2019, 10:33:14 AM »
Imma going to make the boldest prediction Scoop has ever known in saying that Felicity hired someone to write the apology for her.

I agree completely.  But, at least she was smart enough to hire someone who wrote a decent apology.  All the celebrities who make crappy apologies hire someone to write it for them.  I'll give Huffman a small amount of credit for hiring someone who wrote a decent apology.  Also, for being smart enough (i.e., hiring a lawyer who was smart enough) to know that a guilty plea is the correct strategy here.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

warriorchick

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2019, 11:27:09 AM »
Imma going to make the boldest prediction Scoop has ever known in saying that Felicity hired someone to write the apology for her.

Sure she had someone write it, but she is the one who released it as her own.

Give her credit.  Most people hire someone to write something with wiggle room.  Notice the word "but" does not appear anywhere in the statement like it does in many so--called "apologies".
Have some patience, FFS.

Jockey

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2019, 11:41:42 AM »
Sure she had someone write it, but she is the one who released it as her own.

Give her credit.  Most people hire someone to write something with wiggle room.  Notice the word "but" does not appear anywhere in the statement like it does in many so--called "apologies".

Worst of all are people who apologize by saying they are sorry if anyone was offended by their words/actions. Putting it on the other person as if the other person’s reaction was the issue.

Notably, she didn’t do that.

Not A Serious Person

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2019, 01:30:20 PM »
Sure she had someone write it, but she is the one who released it as her own.

Give her credit.  Most people hire someone to write something with wiggle room.  Notice the word "but" does not appear anywhere in the statement like it does in many so--called "apologies".

+1

Does not matter who wrote it.  What matters is she released it under her name and says these words represents how she feels.
Western Progressives have one worldview, the correct one.

jesmu84

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2019, 02:43:53 PM »
Eh. I call BS. These people only care that they got caught. They aren't sorry at all.

Benny B

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Re: 44 Indictments On College Bribery Case
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2019, 11:35:19 AM »
Eh. I call BS. These people only care that they got caught. They aren't sorry at all.

Exactly.  These people weren't doing this because they were backed into a corner and had no choice to act despite knowing it was wrong.  Nor were they doing this because they honestly didn't think they were doing anything wrong.  They either a) didn't care about whether it was right/wrong or b) knew (or suspected) it was wrong yet felt themselves to be above the rules, laws, regulations, neighborhood association covenants, etc.

In time, they may truly realize the errors of their ways, but to take several weeks to go from arrogance to apologetic reeks of lawyer/publicist influence, not remorse.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

 

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