SHU-t

[DoctorV]

Markus has to be the most hated Naismith candidate ever.

If yall want to bench Markus you need top realize that our teams ceiling drops from top 10 team to NCAA bubble team. Maybe we make less mistakes but we aren't going to win many games.

This. From November 23rd until Feb 23rd this team went 20-2 with only two losses to StJ.

That’s remarkable. That happened in large part because of Markus being an All American candidate. That happened with the ball in his hands most of the time and his two worst games in that stretch were the only two losses.

It’s fine to criticize his shortcomings, humans are innately negative. It’s not fine to do so while not realizing what he’s done for and meant to this team. It’s downright idiotic to argue benching him or taking him off the ball or doing anything else that drastically changes why this team won in the first place.

I’ve said it before, the ball needs to be in his hands turnovers be damned. That is what gives him the best chance to succeed, which aligns with the teams best chance to succeed.

[tower912]

Only frustrated fans would argue against that.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes. And that’s not me blaming Markus at all. But yes. He was in total control and rhythm until Markus was inserted.

I guess if we ignore the fact that he actually hit a shot after he was inserted that's the case.  But we really shouldn't ignore that now should we.

[skianth16]

Markus has to be the most hated Naismith candidate ever.

If yall want to bench Markus you need top realize that our teams ceiling drops from top 10 team to NCAA bubble team. Maybe we make less mistakes but we aren't going to win many games.

I don't think anyone is saying Markus should sit indefinitely. But his plus/minus last night was awful. The team was playing better without him well into the second half. Calling for him to have had less PT last night in the final minutes makes sense.

It's the whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. We extended our lead with Markus sitting. Sam was showing signs of life we haven't seen from him in a while. And we had fewer turnovers than in the first half (low bar there, though). If you're getting the results you want, regardless of the lineup, there's no need to change it.

Then there's this weird consistency he's had in the closing minutes of games this year. Even coming out of timeouts he's taking bad shots, losing the ball, and making bad decisions. I don't know what's causing it, but it's painfully obvious that he's not the same player with 2 minutes to go as he is earlier in the game. Acknowledging that in gameplanning and when drawing up plays isn't insulting to Markus; it's good coaching.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Again, Wojo waited until Seton Hall had halved the lead to bring in Markus. What was working had stopped working. Arguably, he may have waited too long to bring Markus back.

I also don't remember the bad shots Markus took at the end of the game. He missed two wide open threes. I remember a lot of bad shots that Sam took at the end of the game.

[MUfan12]

The Markus discussion tends to be a "he plays or he sits" deal, when the solution is neither of those.

I don't pin the Creighton game on him. They wouldn't have even been in the game if not for him.

But against Nova, and again last night, it became evident he was too amped up, trying to force the issue too much. That's where Woj needs to pull him for a tick, calm him down, and get him back in the game. There has been ample opportunity to do that. Hell, there were 2 TV timeouts last night where he could have pulled him for a minute and brought him back in.

[4everwarriors]

Markus = McNeal. Both look grate on Saturday mornin's at da Y, hey?

[MU82]

Again, Wojo waited until Seton Hall had halved the lead to bring in Markus. What was working had stopped working. Arguably, he may have waited too long to bring Markus back.

I also don't remember the bad shots Markus took at the end of the game. He missed two wide open threes. I remember a lot of bad shots that Sam took at the end of the game.

This. (Although I think I remember one not-great 3 Markus took. But maybe not.)

But against Nova, and again last night, it became evident he was too amped up, trying to force the issue too much. That's where Woj needs to pull him for a tick, calm him down, and get him back in the game. There has been ample opportunity to do that. Hell, there were 2 TV timeouts last night where he could have pulled him for a minute and brought him back in.

This makes a lot of sense. How would Markus have responded if Wojo had put his arm around him and said, "I'm gonna give you a minute to catch your breath"? Probably OK. It is a coach's job to find ways to work with a star player to affect change without delivering a major shot to the ego. Definitely easier to write that sentence than to make it happen, but I agree with your thesis here.

Again though, down the stretch yesterday Markus was nowhere near our biggest problem.

[GooooMarquette]

Markus has to be the most hated Naismith candidate ever.

If yall want to bench Markus you need top realize that our teams ceiling drops from top 10 team to NCAA bubble team. Maybe we make less mistakes but we aren't going to win many games.

You are confusing “hate” with “we were on a roll without him last night so maybe we should have kept the same lineup.“

Those are two VERY different things...and you know that.

I love watching Markus, and look forward to seeing him to become MU’s all-time leading scorer. But last night, we were better with him on the bench.

[skianth16]

Again, Wojo waited until Seton Hall had halved the lead to bring in Markus. What was working had stopped working. Arguably, he may have waited too long to bring Markus back.

I also don't remember the bad shots Markus took at the end of the game. He missed two wide open threes. I remember a lot of bad shots that Sam took at the end of the game.

If I remember correctly, I think most of Sam's bad shots came after we were already down. When Markus came back into the game, with the lead dwindling, his first shot was a deep 3 that he missed. Seton Hall got the board and scored immediately. On the next possession, Markus drove into 2 defenders, lost the ball, and then Powell hit that big 3 that really made the crowd go nuts.

I'm not saying we lost because of Markus Howard, our NPOY candidate. But I am saying I think limiting his minutes/involvement down the stretch could have helped us.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You are confusing “hate” with “we were on a roll without him last night so maybe we should have kept the same lineup.“

Those are two VERY different things...and you know that.

I love watching Markus, and look forward to seeing him to become MU’s all-time leading scorer. But last night, we were better with him on the bench.

But we weren't on a roll.  SHU cut the lead to 8.  It actually then increased over the next four minutes, with Markus on the floor, to 9 after Sacar's layup.

[GooooMarquette]

But we weren't on a roll.  SHU cut the lead to 8.  It actually then increased over the next four minutes, with Markus on the floor, to 9 after Sacar's layup.

So they cut slightly into the lead...which we had built while Markus was on the bench. In the big picture, we were still on a roll because the lead grew over that several minutes before Markus came back.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So they cut slightly into the lead...which we had built while Markus was on the bench. In the big picture, we were still on a roll because the lead grew over that several minutes before Markus came back.

In the big picture, we won 23 games with Markus as our leader.

[GooooMarquette]

In the big picture, we won 23 games with Markus as our leader.

I totally get that, and if you'd read my post a few back, you would see that I'm not calling for Wojo to bench him the rest of the season. I'm just talking about what we did with him on the bench last night.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If I remember correctly, I think most of Sam's bad shots came after we were already down. When Markus came back into the game, with the lead dwindling, his first shot was a deep 3 that he missed. Seton Hall got the board and scored immediately. On the next possession, Markus drove into 2 defenders, lost the ball, and then Powell hit that big 3 that really made the crowd go nuts.

I'm not saying we lost because of Markus Howard, our NPOY candidate. But I am saying I think limiting his minutes/involvement down the stretch could have helped us.

You are misremembering. When Markus came back into the game, Markus took a deep but open three and missed. Seton Hall did not score, Powell missed a contested three point jumper. The next possession was Joey's missed dunk. Cale then scored a layup. Next possession Sam missed a forced jumper. There was a TV timeout, then Shavar Reynolds hit that 2 pointer at the buzzer that hit every part of the rim before falling, then we scored 5 straight points to extend the lead to 9.

What I think you might be thinking of is 5 minutes later, long after Howard had been brought in. This is part of what I'm talking about, Markus has 30 bad seconds in the middle of being brought back and somehow it turns into "bringing Markus back lost the game for us."

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

You are misremembering. When Markus came back into the game, Markus took a deep but open three and missed. Seton Hall did not score, Powell missed a contested three point jumper. The next possession was Joey's missed dunk. Cale then scored a layup. Next possession Sam missed a forced jumper. There was a TV timeout, then Shavar Reynolds hit that 2 pointer at the buzzer that hit every part of the rim before falling, then we scored 5 straight points to extend the lead to 9.

What I think you might be thinking of is 5 minutes later, long after Howard had been brought in. This is part of what I'm talking about, Markus has 30 bad seconds in the middle of being brought back and somehow it turns into "bringing Markus back lost the game for us."

Semantics in my opinion.  The 'lead' is a function of SHU continuing to score and us getting bogged down on O.  This happened at 9:45 left.  We went from 59 points to 64 points in the end.  SHU had a great run beginning at 440.  May or may not have mattered if we had some O in the last 10 mins.

So if the bogged down O lost the game -- Markus was a big change at the time that the O disappeared TONIGHT.  I love the kid, but last night the team played worse on O with him in.  I also think Morrow was playing great...he was a change to O too that seemed to negatively impact us.

[GooooMarquette]

You are misremembering. When Markus came back into the game, Markus took a deep but open three and missed. Seton Hall did not score, Powell missed a contested three point jumper. The next possession was Joey's missed dunk. Cale then scored a layup. Next possession Sam missed a forced jumper. There was a TV timeout, then Shavar Reynolds hit that 2 pointer at the buzzer that hit every part of the rim before falling, then we scored 5 straight points to extend the lead to 9.

What I think you might be thinking of is 5 minutes later, long after Howard had been brought in. This is part of what I'm talking about, Markus has 30 bad seconds in the middle of being brought back and somehow it turns into "bringing Markus back lost the game for us."

Simple question. Do you think we played better overall last night when Markus was in the game or on the bench?

[skianth16]

You are misremembering. When Markus came back into the game, Markus took a deep but open three and missed. Seton Hall did not score, Powell missed a contested three point jumper. The next possession was Joey's missed dunk. Cale then scored a layup. Next possession Sam missed a forced jumper. There was a TV timeout, then Shavar Reynolds hit that 2 pointer at the buzzer that hit every part of the rim before falling, then we scored 5 straight points to extend the lead to 9.

What I think you might be thinking of is 5 minutes later, long after Howard had been brought in. This is part of what I'm talking about, Markus has 30 bad seconds in the middle of being brought back and somehow it turns into "bringing Markus back lost the game for us."

I knew it was after a timeout. I didn't realize it was that late in the game, though. Markus' play there did hurt us in a big way at a critical point. The turnover followed by the Powell 3 is a big swing. And that kind of mental error is not unique to last night. For whatever reason, he has struggled late in games this year. Last night was just another case in point.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Simple question. Do you think we played better overall last night when Markus was in the game or on the bench?

In the second half we played better when Markus was on the bench. That doesn't mean that Markus was the cause. Given the result, I think Wojo waited too long to bring him back. Instead of easing back into the game, he was put in a situation where he needed to stop a Pirate run. I don't think keeping him out longer would have changed the result.

[nyg]

At the 4:40 left mark, MU was up nine.  Per ESPN's play by play:

MU had one turnover in next 4:40, but missed nine straight shots.

Sam     0 for 4
Markus 0 for 2, with the single turnover
Joey     0 for 1
Sacar   0 for 1
Theo    0 for 1

In the 18 to 0 run, SH scored five points at free throw line and Powell scored 10. For game he had 1/2 of SH's points.

[monkeyman34]

Nova lost 3 in a row to basically the same competition.  Was it time for Jay Wright to go??

Does Wojo have 2 national championships in the past 3 years like Jay Wright? Did Wojo just lose 6 of his top 8 players from last year?

[Big Papi]

Not that simple.  We had a 7 point lead when Howard picked up his 3rd foul and for the most part treaded water until he came back into the game.

After Anim made a layup at around the 5 minute mark, everything fell apart but not all on Markus. 

Hall layup.
Joey was blocked on a weak jumper, transition 3.
Sam misses a 3, Hall with a layup.
Howard missed 3 and a turnover leads to 5 more Hall points.
Sam misses 3 more three attempts and game over.

Our shot selection down the stretch was awful.  Just about everyone of them were outside our players comfort zones by a few feet. 

We fell apart down the stretch against 3 desperate teams.  Not good.  A large part of that is on Coach.

On the bright side, good to see Bailey hit some shots and Sacar showing some much needed ball handling skills.

Simple question. Do you think we played better overall last night when Markus was in the game or on the bench?

[GooooMarquette]

In the second half we played better when Markus was on the bench. That doesn't mean that Markus was the cause. Given the result, I think Wojo waited too long to bring him back. Instead of easing back into the game, he was put in a situation where he needed to stop a Pirate run. I don't think keeping him out longer would have changed the result.

Thank you!

[MU82]

I just put up a thread dedicated to what really happened after Markus got back into the game.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Again, Wojo waited until Seton Hall had halved the lead to bring in Markus. What was working had stopped working. Arguably, he may have waited too long to bring Markus back.

I also don't remember the bad shots Markus took at the end of the game. He missed two wide open threes. I remember a lot of bad shots that Sam took at the end of the game.

Yah, its tough.  You've got to live and die with Markus.  Most of the time you're going to live.  Have to take the good with the bad.  But I probably would have taken Markus out after his back to back possessions late in the game when he drove deep into the trees without a plan and tripped (TO), and then I believe next possession hucked up a deep and very contested 3.  He just didn't have it last night. We played significantly better without him last night. 

This team is obviously a much better team with Markus.  But sometimes a guy just doesn't have it.