Gameday

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How do you do that?  Sleazy Vinnie the used car salesman will just pay him.  As long as he reports it on his taxes, he did nothing wrong.  IT is not illegal for sleazy Vinnie and sleazy Vinnie is not obligated to follow NCAA rules.  The kid is when he signs a contract with the NCAA (LOI)

The NCAA can't police the vendors but they can police the student-athlete. Just like they can't police the shoe companies now.

[Not A Serious Person]

If Zion W or any other player is so heart broken about “lack” of financial gain of playing in college (again lest we forget the amount of money for scholarship, food, travel, free swag, housing, education, etc)

Then why don’t they just go the route of Brandon Jennings who went overseas and made money right after high school?

Jennings was paid 1.65 million and also made $2mil in endorsements straight out of high school.

So instead of complaining, why not force a system change and go get your money!?

Or is it possibly that the players are not as upset about it as we make them out to be?

How about get rid of the one and done rule and let them all go straight to the NBA, like LeBron?

[Cheeks]

How about get rid of the one and done rule and let them all go straight to the NBA, like LeBron?

That would be great....NBA controls that, not NCAA.  Next...

[Herman Cain]

Here is my take on all of this. Based on having 3 kids in Division 1 athletics  at the high end ACC and Big Ten level.

Kids are committing to play a team sport. They all know that from day 1 when they start in youth programs. Part of being on a team is the understanding of what the roles each player has . Again kids all know that over time.

So when it comes time to pick a college for a team sport, in general, a kid and their family evaluates what is the best circumstance for their particular skills. Less than 1 percent of high school athletes play D 1 sports and less than 3 percent play at any level in college. Less than 1 percent then go on to play professional.

When a kid arrives at a  D1 school, usually for the first time in their life they are no longer the big man on campus. When a kid has to start out on the scout team, it is a big transition. They buy into that because they know they are part of a team and a good coach instills the understanding that the scout is a big part of the teams success. This is not an easy transition  for kids and their is a big balancing act of school and sport. The compensation for all of this is a academics, housing, meals and full time tutors and life coaches fully paid for. Everyone knows that coming in  is well. Acceptance is the system is universal and why it works so well.  Everyone is part of the team and the team rises and falls together , not as an individual. So this is why a coach like Wojo was near tears in describing Matt Heldts role recently. Heldt came in worked his way from scout to NCAA starter and now is back to scout, and the team and Theo in particular are benefiting from it. That is ideally how things work. Several kids on MU last tournament team pointed in particular to the role Sacar played on scout as being a part of their success. The kids understand the system better than the adults do I think.

If an individual does not like their role on a team they transfer. All part of the system we have which works.  Kids will move to another level if they want to be the star and not the role player. So a kid like Sandy can go to Green Bay  or STJr can go to Toledo and be the star and move on to the next level if they so choose. It is a great part of the system.

Finally there is a myth about the starving student athlete. Simply not true. Every single kid can go and get a summer job just like any other kid. Save their money and they will be fine. Lots of kids have to learn to budget and do things like that. It is part of growing up.

The other thing people are not taking into consideration is that when a student athlete graduates there is a whole world of companies, institutions etc that want to hire these kids. So even if the kid is not a star, there is a lifetime reward that comes with being part of something that is bigger than yourself. Part of the value to having a collegiate sport system is that many go on to greater success in life and bring back funds to the schools they originally played for.

So my position is no further compensation is needed. The system is working well for those who are actually in . 

There is a part of me that  partially agrees with the notion that the  kids  should be able to benefit from their image use. However, I think the limits on that should be relatively narrow and well defined., where the money goes into a pool divided among all the kids playing across the D1 spectrum. That way the star running back gets an endorsement but the lineman who block get a benefit as well. Also so that the buy team type programs get some benefit for getting their role in the system etc. Would really even things out and make the system better for all.

[Cheeks]

Finally there is a myth about the starving student athlete. Simply not true. Every single kid can go and get a summer job just like any other kid. Save their money and they will be fine. Lots of kids have to learn to budget and do things like that. It is part of growing up.

Yup, and it continues to live on.  They can get jobs like anyone else...it is mind blowing how often this myth is repeated as fact. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's an interesting idea HC. Let them profit off their likeness but it gets spread across to benefit all athletes. It doesn't address the top 1% being underpaid but it does give the student athletes more opportunities. I don't hate the idea

[Pakuni]

Finally there is a myth about the starving student athlete. Simply not true. Every single kid can go and get a summer job just like any other kid. Save their money and they will be fine. Lots of kids have to learn to budget and do things like that. It is part of growing up.

The great majority of high-level college athletes stay on campus for classes, camps and workouts during the summer. Now you want them to work at Jimmy John's, too?
And these "lots of other kids" of which you speak don't have nearly the amount of obligations high-level DI athletes do.
In other words, apples to oranges.

[Herman Cain]

The great majority of high-level college athletes stay on campus for classes, camps and workouts during the summer. Now you want them to work at Jimmy John's, too?
And these "lots of other kids" of which you speak don't have nearly the amount of obligations high-level DI athletes do.
In other words, apples to oranges.

Actually you are partially making my point. The kids that stay at school get paid good money for working the camps, t is not charity work. The classes are condensed over 3/5 weeks and they frequently have other campus related opportunities to make money. The workouts happen whether or not they are on campus, and yes that is something other kids don't have to do . However, these athlete kids also have opportunities that other kids don't have such as giving private coaching sessions which can add up to very good coin .

A typical summer for one of my kids, was to take the first round of classes, workout with other student athletes, Work the school camps,  coach on select teams and then because they were a coach, give private lessons, train little kids etc .   Those coaching environments frequently led to summer internships in future years. Kids have a lot of energy and are resourceful.

[Cheeks]

That's an interesting idea HC. Let them profit off their likeness but it gets spread across to benefit all athletes. It doesn't address the top 1% being underpaid but it does give the student athletes more opportunities. I don't hate the idea

But those bitching that they don’t get theirs will have to share again....how are the bitchers not going to make the same argument they make now?

[Big Papi]

Anyone can go pro after their first year and make as much money as they can.  Most won't because they understand the value of a free degree.

[real chili 83]

Herman, that was well stated

[#UnleashSean]

The great majority of high-level college athletes stay on campus for classes, camps and workouts during the summer. Now you want them to work at Jimmy John's, too?
And these "lots of other kids" of which you speak don't have nearly the amount of obligations high-level DI athletes do.
In other words, apples to oranges.

Those lots of other kids are also paying 40k in tuition. D1 athletes being starving is a laughable fallacy. They are leagues better off then an average student.

[WarriorDad]

Here is my take on all of this. Based on having 3 kids in Division 1 athletics  at the high end ACC and Big Ten level.

Kids are committing to play a team sport. They all know that from day 1 when they start in youth programs. Part of being on a team is the understanding of what the roles each player has . Again kids all know that over time.

We also have some experience here with one of our kids playing DI sports on a scholarship.  A non-revenue sport, but the ideals you express here is how it worked in our experience. 

There are some big time athletes that could go directly into the pros and make money, but my stance is why jeopardize the entire thing for such a small handful of people?  It doesn't make sense in my view.  Its a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

[MU82]

Aside from those constantly calling it a gift of $250K (or more) even though the vast, vast, vast majority of MU students pay nowhere near $250K out of pocket for 4 years at MU, all I'll say is this:

I'm not fond of black-or-white, no-nuance, my-way-or-the-highway arguments. However, if I had to take a side for just about any argument, I'd take Bilas over chicos.

[1318WWells]

Aside from those constantly calling it a gift of $250K (or more) even though the vast, vast, vast majority of MU students pay nowhere near $250K out of pocket for 4 years at MU, all I'll say is this:

I'm not fond of black-or-white, no-nuance, my-way-or-the-highway arguments. However, if I had to take a side for just about any argument, I'd take Bilas over chicos.

The $250K number is the university’s investment in each student athlete per year.

Do the vast majority of MU students eat on the same meal plan as the men’s basketball team? Do they receive the same academic support? Access to medical/training staff? Fly on a private jet to their intramural games?

There is a built in support staff behind the scenes at MU that helps bring out the best in our basketball team. What a star like Markus Howard does to increase revenues, helps pay the salaries of the countless behind the scenes support staff that help to make him better.

Again, being treated better than he would being paid millions playing in Europe.

[Cheeks]

Aside from those constantly calling it a gift of $250K (or more) even though the vast, vast, vast majority of MU students pay nowhere near $250K out of pocket for 4 years at MU, all I'll say is this:

I'm not fond of black-or-white, no-nuance, my-way-or-the-highway arguments. However, if I had to take a side for just about any argument, I'd take Bilas over chicos.

The $250k is more than just the tuition, but the other investment.

I’d take Erin Andrews in any argument over yours.

[Johnny B]

this thread is beating a dead horse at this point

[MU82]

The $250K number is the university’s investment in each student athlete per year.

Do the vast majority of MU students eat on the same meal plan as the men’s basketball team? Do they receive the same academic support? Access to medical/training staff? Fly on a private jet to their intramural games?

There is a built in support staff behind the scenes at MU that helps bring out the best in our basketball team. What a star like Markus Howard does to increase revenues, helps pay the salaries of the countless behind the scenes support staff that help to make him better.

Again, being treated better than he would being paid millions playing in Europe.

Well, when one starts with the premise that non-student-athletes pay anywhere near full freight, it is easy to get to an inflated total. My daughter went to Lawrence, a very good, small, private liberal arts college. We weren't rich at the time but we were nowhere near "needy." And yet we didn't even have to pay half of the "rack rate" for tuition.

But sure, student-athletes get all the trappings that go with a paid-for education, room and board, training, etc.

They also get used.

IMHO, the first step is to give athletes the same freedom coaches have; coaches do not have to sit out a season after they jump ship (usually lying to their athletes about loyalty until the very last minute, but that's neither here nor there). After that, maybe payment can be discussed, although I admit I can't think of any kind of payment system that would be equitable.

As for Markus helping raise money to pay for the support staff ...

When universities -- including public ones -- pay coaches 3, 5, 10, 20 times what they pay university presidents, prize-winning professors, etc, I'll be willing to listen a little more about how strapped athletic department budgets need to use athletes to pay for support staff.

[GooooMarquette]

this thread is beating a dead horse at this point

This is Scoop - it's what we do.

[Cheeks]

Well, when one starts with the premise that non-student-athletes pay anywhere near full freight, it is easy to get to an inflated total. My daughter went to Lawrence, a very good, small, private liberal arts college. We weren't rich at the time but we were nowhere near "needy." And yet we didn't even have to pay half of the "rack rate" for tuition.

But sure, student-athletes get all the trappings that go with a paid-for education, room and board, training, etc.

They also get used.

IMHO, the first step is to give athletes the same freedom coaches have; coaches do not have to sit out a season after they jump ship (usually lying to their athletes about loyalty until the very last minute, but that's neither here nor there). After that, maybe payment can be discussed, although I admit I can't think of any kind of payment system that would be equitable.

As for Markus helping raise money to pay for the support staff ...

When universities -- including public ones -- pay coaches 3, 5, 10, 20 times what they pay university presidents, prize-winning professors, etc, I'll be willing to listen a little more about how strapped athletic department budgets need to use athletes to pay for support staff.

Do you think most OSU alums knew who the football coach was last yeR or the president of the university?  How about the award winning prof?  Just asking what your guess would be. 

I suspect the head coaches of every sport except for men’s basketball and football make significantly less than the university president.

[MU82]

Do you think most OSU alums knew who the football coach was last yeR or the president of the university?  How about the award winning prof?  Just asking what your guess would be. 

I suspect the head coaches of every sport except for men’s basketball and football make significantly less than the university president.

It doesn't bother me that a coach makes more than the university president.

I just find it funny when folks talk about universities' athletic budgets being "cash-strapped" despite spending $5-10 million (or more) on their football coach and men's basketball coach, and at least that much (or more) on the rest of those sports' coaching staffs. Many schools now pay offensive and defensive coordinators $1 million apiece or more, and several schools pay their women's basketball coach 7 figures, too.

Players wear sneakers, advertising Nike or UA or adidas for the entire world to see ... but coaches get the sneaker money and players don't see a nickel of it.

Hey, I like people making money. I like making money as much as the next person, and I always want to make more.

But stop the hypocrisy. Either rein in the coaching salaries or stop claiming you don't have money to pay athletes.

How 'bout we start with them getting a cut of the very significant $$$ they bring in for being walking apparel advertisers? If the coaches, administrators and NCAA honchos actually care about the athlete-students as much as they claim they do, they would be happy to agree to this.

[Cheeks]

It doesn't bother me that a coach makes more than the university president.

I just find it funny when folks talk about universities' athletic budgets being "cash-strapped" despite spending $5-10 million (or more) on their football coach and men's basketball coach, and at least that much (or more) on the rest of those sports' coaching staffs. Many schools now pay offensive and defensive coordinators $1 million apiece or more, and several schools pay their women's basketball coach 7 figures, too.

Players wear sneakers, advertising Nike or UA or adidas for the entire world to see ... but coaches get the sneaker money and players don't see a nickel of it.

Hey, I like people making money. I like making money as much as the next person, and I always want to make more.

But stop the hypocrisy. Either rein in the coaching salaries or stop claiming you don't have money to pay athletes.

How 'bout we start with them getting a cut of the very significant $$$ they bring in for being walking apparel advertisers? If the coaches, administrators and NCAA honchos actually care about the athlete-students as much as they claim they do, they would be happy to agree to this.

Most of the cash strapped athletic departments are not paying their coaches like that.  There are the profitable athletic departments that Billas and others point to as the examples, but they are in the minority.  Most departments are propped up by student fees and other subsidies from the university and would be operating in the red.  I find it equally hypocritical that Bilas and others don’t want to talk about situation with so many departments that don’t have the means and conveniently are never used in the examples they wish to give.

[MU82]

Most of the cash strapped athletic departments are not paying their coaches like that.  There are the profitable athletic departments that Billas and others point to as the examples, but they are in the minority.  Most departments are propped up by student fees and other subsidies from the university and would be operating in the red.  I find it equally hypocritical that Bilas and others don’t want to talk about situation with so many departments that don’t have the means and conveniently are never used in the examples they wish to give.

OK.

Have a nice day, chicos.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

OK.

Have a nice day, chicos.

Sorry 82 but I mostly agree with Chicos on this one. We love to point at the Alabamas and Michigans of the world and say "see they are rich." But they make up the elite 1%. Unless you are going to make different rules for different programs, you have to factor in how the 99% would be impacted by proposed changes. Pretty much all D2 and D3 programs are charity cases. Most athletic departments outside the P5 are in the red. If you treat all schools like you treat the P5 you will end up taking away thousands of opportunities from student-athletes at smaller programs.

I love Bilas but he purposefully puts blinders on and ignores everyone but the star football and men's basketball players at D1 P5/6 schools. Yes, those stars are underpaid for their services. But everyone else is fairly or overpaid for their services. If you truly paid the stars what they are worth, that money would have to come from somewhere, and all the other players would suffer as a result.

[MU82]

Sorry 82 but I mostly agree with Chicos on this one. We love to point at the Alabamas and Michigans of the world and say "see they are rich." But they make up the elite 1%. Unless you are going to make different rules for different programs, you have to factor in how the 99% would be impacted by proposed changes. Pretty much all D2 and D3 programs are charity cases. Most athletic departments outside the P5 are in the red. If you treat all schools like you treat the P5 you will end up taking away thousands of opportunities from student-athletes at smaller programs.

I love Bilas but he purposefully puts blinders on and ignores everyone but the star football and men's basketball players at D1 P5/6 schools. Yes, those stars are underpaid for their services. But everyone else is fairly or overpaid for their services. If you truly paid the stars what they are worth, that money would have to come from somewhere, and all the other players would suffer as a result.

No need to apologize. We all are allowed opinions. I never mind a respectful disagreement and intelligent discussion, and I know you don't either.

As for where money should come from, as I said, let's start with the apparel manufacturers. Shift that $$$ from the coaches to the athlete-students -- the people who are being used as running, jumping, dunking, tackling billboards. It would be a start. And given how the coaches talk so beautifully about how much they love their athlete-students, we all know they'd be happy to do this.