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* Next up: A long offseason

Marquette
64
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 4, 2019
TV: ???
Schedule for 2018-19
Murray State
83

Poll

If Markus continues to put up 30 and 40 point games, and stays in the conversation for NPOY, do you expect Markus to return for his senior year?

Yes, 80-100% certain he will return.
218 (50.6%)
Probably, 60-80%
149 (34.6%)
Maybe, 40-60%
42 (9.7%)
Probably not, 20-40%
16 (3.7%)
No, 0-20%.  He is ready for the league.
6 (1.4%)

Total Members Voted: 431

Author Topic: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?  (Read 14483 times)

1SE

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #225 on: January 12, 2019, 08:31:18 AM »
I'm almost kind of playing devil's advocate here since I've been as vocal as anyone about the success of this team resting on our ability to go beyond "Markus first, Markus only"... but... in that vein....

Markus is a singular offensive talent.

Wade was great - but compare his Junior year to Markus' to date:

Markus

MP   FG   FGA   FG%   2P   2PA   2P%   3P   3PA   3P%   FT   FTA   FT%   ORB   DRB   TRB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   PTS
33.4   7.8   17.6   .445   3.6   8.2   .443   4.2   9.4   .447   6.0   6.7   .897   0.4   3.4   3.8   4.3   1.1   0.1   3.6   25.8

Wade

MP   FG   FGA   FG%   2P   2PA   2P%   3P   3PA   3P%   FT   FTA   FT%   ORB   DRB   TRB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   PTS
32.1   7.6   15.2   .501   7.2   13.8   .519   0.4   1.3   .318   5.9   7.5   .779   1.8   4.5   6.3   4.4   2.2   1.3   3.2   21.5   

I'd say a wash. Wade's edge on boards, steals and blocks offset by Markus' on pts and eFG.

And remember, Wade was playing next to an NBA point-guard and an NBA Stretch 4. Maybe/hopefully Markus is playing next to two future NBAers too, but I'd say it's a best a toss-up between the Hauser bros and Diener/Novak. Who's around you has to matter for GOAT too.

Yes Wade's game against Kentucky was probably the best single all-time MU performance (especially given the stakes). Markus has had some big games but none yet that have mattered like that one did. 

And thus my qualification all along is that this team has real NCAA success this year or next. If that happens you have to put Markus in the GOAT convo.
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PTM

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #226 on: January 12, 2019, 09:53:06 AM »
dgies

No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.


This is absolutely asinine.
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new


mu03eng

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #228 on: January 12, 2019, 10:14:36 AM »
dgies

No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.

Also, to me being the greatest at anything includes two characteristics, #1 that person makes others around him much better, and #2 the combination of someone being great and making others around him much better should equal winning in a very, very big way.

Howard is very entertaining to watch, no doubt about it. I have had many casual fans want to talk about him with me, which is nice to see casual wins interested in MU ball again. His place in MU history is yet to be determined, but I think he has a long, long way to go to be a top guard in school history, let alone the GOAT.

Uh, what have you been smoking because I'd like to get it banned. This is just crazy talk. Dude is at worst, average on the defensive end and other worldly on the offensive end. He can create for others if needed(see X game where he had 6 assists and should have had at least 10 if Ed could hit no footers that game). Yes he can go here ball but so can any super star. He is now within realistic range of setting the all time scoring record at MU after 3 seasons and hes not in your top 10!?!??!
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WarriorDad

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #229 on: January 12, 2019, 10:35:17 AM »
Tony Smith also was capable of scoring in bunches.  My recollection is that when Smith scored a ton, we typically lost.  It was usually a bad sign that the rest of the team wasn't doing anything and Smith had to take over.

Tony Smith had not very good adjoining talent around him, too.  That makes a difference.  The Hausers allow for some spacing for Howard.  Novak helped Wade as did Merritt and Jackson.  Tony Smith was really a man on an island.  The lefty on that team, Anglevar (?) could shoot, but was slow.
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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #230 on: January 12, 2019, 10:44:13 AM »
Rumors of Markus Howard's poor defense have been greatly exaggerated.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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PTM

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #231 on: January 12, 2019, 11:02:28 AM »
Rumors of Markus Howard's poor defense have been greatly exaggerated.

at this point in time, it's only a fictional feather in the cap of the old guard.
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

WarriorDad

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #232 on: January 12, 2019, 11:13:47 AM »
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/John-Pudner-Value-Add-Markus-Howards-53-pts-Big-East-record-127721295/

#M2N

How does Value Add system work if a team has many good players (support staff let us call them) vs a team that has a star and not many complimentary players? 

Would Wade be higher if Merritt and Diener were not on the team?  Is Tony Smith penalized because of his teammates?
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Goose

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2019, 11:36:39 AM »
As I mentioned, Howard will be the greatest scorer in school history. Barring injury or turning pro, he will set a scoring record that will last longer than Brute Force held the record. IMO, that makes him an extremely entertaining player to watch. DWade is the greatest ever at MU, but there are 6-8 guys that were off the charts. Then you can probably add another 6-8 that were really good. In the last group I put Doc, James and Tony Smith. I do not think Howard passes James on my all time list.
Don’t get me wrong, Howard is a special player. But, MU is program that has produced some unbelievably gifted college players. To be GOAT at MU you have an awfully big mountain to climb.
For the younger folks on here, Bo Ellis was outstanding game in and game out for four seasons and he is not in my top four all time greats. I do not know of a GOAT in any sport that did not win a very high level.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:42:34 AM by Goose »

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2019, 11:47:09 AM »
Do you think Markus can raise his draft stock by coming back next year?  I think he can.

If he returns, he could be a pre-season NPOY, MU could be top 10 and he will be one of the big story lines next year.  He has another year to show improve with his ball handling abilities.

agree?

Goose

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #235 on: January 12, 2019, 11:51:52 AM »
Tower
Any chance of playing in the NBA would include playing at MU next year.

Golden Avalanche

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #236 on: January 12, 2019, 12:06:24 PM »
dgies

No disrespect to Howard, but he can average 100, win NC and not make my top ten all time Warrior list. Hand’s down he is the greatest shooter (passed Novak) and greatest scorer in MU history, IMO. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent and Howard slants one side of the court in his team’s favor. Unfortunately, he does the same for the other team on the other half of the court.

Edited for ridiculousness.


Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.

The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.

Pakuni

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #237 on: January 12, 2019, 12:14:43 PM »
Tower
Any chance of playing in the NBA would include playing at MU next year.

Not so sure about that. The challenges Markus would face (size, lack of elite athleticism, defense) aren't going away with another year of dominating the Big East.

Cheeks

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #238 on: January 12, 2019, 01:09:36 PM »
Not so sure about that. The challenges Markus would face (size, lack of elite athleticism, defense) aren't going away with another year of dominating the Big East.

True to a degree, but as Henry showed, how good the draft classes are also matters.  Ellenson entered with one of the worst classes, if he waited it would have hurt him considerably.  Conversely, there have been players that have waited and improved because they improved in an area they were suspect at and the class wasn’t as good.

Personally I think he can improve his defense with another year, he already has improved in that area.

Let him declare this year, he can come back if he isn’t drafted.  Win win for him and program.


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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #239 on: January 12, 2019, 01:46:52 PM »

Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.

The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.

I don't remember Goose ever disowning the program. And you can call it notalgia porn but our program was at a much different level in the 70s than it was now. IMHO, it's fair to rank the best players from teams that were ranked top 5 regularly over the best player on a team that is more of a back end of the top 25.

Don't get me wrong, Howard absolutely belongs in the conversation of MU greats, probably towards to back of the top 10. But between Wade, Crowder, Butler, Doc, and the guys from the 70s, we've produced some fantastic players.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Cheeks

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #240 on: January 12, 2019, 02:04:28 PM »

Interesting and denigrating word salad from a person who, two years ago, very publicly disowned the Marquette program and stopped supporting the players.

The nostalgia porn of you old timers is a debilitating disease.

Youth is wasted on the young.

The old timers may be bias in their opinions, but they have the advantage of seeing the players back then and now.  The youngsters here didn’t.

I wasn’t old enough to remember the 69’s or 70’s, but 80’s ok I witnessed.  There is definitely some decency bias in some of the analysis of players here.
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muwarrior69

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2019, 02:11:50 PM »
I don't remember Goose ever disowning the program. And you can call it notalgia porn but our program was at a much different level in the 70s than it was now. IMHO, it's fair to rank the best players from teams that were ranked top 5 regularly over the best player on a team that is more of a back end of the top 25.

Don't get me wrong, Howard absolutely belongs in the conversation of MU greats, probably towards to back of the top 10. But between Wade, Crowder, Butler, Doc, and the guys from the 70s, we've produced some fantastic players.

Just remember those guys did not have the 3pt basket or a shot clock which makes comparisons tougher because in some regards they are not playing the same game.

WarriorDad

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #242 on: January 12, 2019, 03:35:52 PM »
Lengthy defenders bother Howard, that is what he saw today.  Isn't the NBA full of those types?  St. John's was a similar type of defense.
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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #243 on: January 12, 2019, 03:38:13 PM »
Lengthy defenders bother Howard, that is what he saw today.  Isn't the NBA full of those types?  St. John's was a similar type of defense.

Davion Mintz is 6'4".

tower912

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #244 on: January 12, 2019, 03:39:00 PM »
The NBA is nothing  but long  guards.  Kid is going to need a growth spurt.
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MU82

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #245 on: January 12, 2019, 04:25:49 PM »
Just remember those guys did not have the 3pt basket or a shot clock which makes comparisons tougher because in some regards they are not playing the same game.

This is a very good point to bring up. Markus has scored hundreds of points that players from before the mid-80s couldn't score.

That's nothing against Markus. He is taking advantage of the rules that exist. But it's still a fact.
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muwarrior69

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #246 on: January 12, 2019, 04:28:45 PM »
The NBA is nothing  but long  guards.  Kid is going to need a growth spurt.

...or elevators shoes!

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #247 on: January 12, 2019, 04:30:04 PM »
This is a very good point to bring up. Markus has scored hundreds of points that players from before the mid-80s couldn't score.

That's nothing against Markus. He is taking advantage of the rules that exist. But it's still a fact.

And the shot clock limits how much an opponent can suppress the score by taking the air out of the ball. Absent a foul or offensive rebound, you get the ball back at least every 30 seconds.

This doesn't take anything away from Markus, it's just that the rules have changed the game a lot over the years.

MUeagle1090

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #248 on: January 12, 2019, 04:33:17 PM »
Markus will not have to deal with many double teams in the NBA.  Not sure length bothers him unless there are multiple defenders and he won't be the focal point of the opponent's gameplan

muwarrior69

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Re: Do you expect Markus back for his senior year?
« Reply #249 on: January 12, 2019, 04:51:46 PM »
And the shot clock limits how much an opponent can suppress the score by taking the air out of the ball. Absent a foul or offensive rebound, you get the ball back at least every 30 seconds.

This doesn't take anything away from Markus, it's just that the rules have changed the game a lot over the years.

Just watch our '77 NC game. Dean Smith and his infamous 4 corners offense back fired on him in that game.