5 year plan

[skianth16]

So we’re punting on year 5 just 5 games into the season?

You obviously disagree and think Wojo is up to the task of providing a solid performance this year. Care to expand on why that is? That was the point of the thread in the first place.

[Silent Verbal]

Winning while not dragging the university's name through the mud is paramount.  MU has long made that decision. Some of you either better get on board with this, or start following another program. That isn't going to change despite protestations from some fans.

We haven’t been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at.  We’re winning at a Mike Deane level.  Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn’t gotten hurt in Wojo’s third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don’t make the tournament. 

Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey.  These guys look Mike Deane players.

[WarriorDad]

You obviously disagree and think Wojo is up to the task of providing a solid performance this year. Care to expand on why that is? That was the point of the thread in the first place.

I'll try.  This team has one senior, doesn't even play much.  We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason.  Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS).  It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose.  We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman.  We have a key player out due to a thumb injury.  The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament.  Maybe you had us at 5-0.  Good for you, but you would have been wrong.

[WarriorDad]

We haven’t been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at.  We’re winning at a Mike Deane level.  Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn’t gotten hurt in Wojo’s third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don’t make the tournament. 

Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey.  These guys look Mike Deane players.

Mike Deane took a NCAA team and when he left we weren't even a NIT team, in Conference USA. His recruiting was terrible.

Wojo took a non-NIT team, in the Big East, has competed in a Big East that has won two of the last three national titles, multiple Final Four and Elite eight teams.  He has us picked to be a NCAA team and 2nd place finisher in the Big East.

Your comparison is ill conceived on every level starting with the words Mike Deane.

Crean had a once in a generation player and plenty of ups and downs.  Coach Buzz had good years and not so good years.  With some off court issues for both those coaches that no longer is tolerated apparently.  Different teams, difference conferences, different rules / policies for coaches to follow.  This last part seems to keep being missed by fans.

Your comments about the players is uncalled for.  Brandon Bailey was a top 100 even top 50 player. 
 He's a freshman.  https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/Brendan-Bailey-is-Marquettes-recruit-on-a-Mormon-Mission-105778530/

Ed Morrow was a top 100 player in some service when he signed with Nebraska at 95, a 4 star ranking.  Deane didn't get those kinds of players.

Mike Deane wishes he could have recruited a Jamal Cain, who chose us over Florida State, Georgia and Cincinnati.  Kid is going to be good.  Deane wishes he could have landed a John who chose us over Minnesota, Purdue, Cal. 

[wadesworld]

I'll try.  This team has one senior, doesn't even play much.  We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason.  Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS).  It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose.  We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman.  We have a key player out due to a thumb injury.  The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament.  Maybe you had us at 5-0.  Good for you, but you would have been wrong.

Pretty much, yup. We got boat raced on the road in a hostile environment where both teams were playing their first meaningful game. Ideal? Of course not. Reason to cancel the season? For reasonable people, no. There were a maximum of maybe 5 teams that might’ve beat IU that night. To me it doesn’t matter if we lose by 45 or 3.

We then competed with, but ultimately lost to, one of what I consider to be a group of maybe 6 teams that can win the national title this year on a neutral court. Again, ideal? No. But reason to cancel the season? Again, no.

Win Friday and we’re just fine. Go 2-1 or better in our last 3 big non-con games (or just go 3-1 including Louisville) and I think we can very easily get to 12 conference wins. If we do that I think we’re a 6ish seed. Which is exactly what I’ve been expecting.

The offense will come around. Chartouny is showing signs of being a floor general which is what we need. My only concern is Markus being a ball stopper. If we get that out of the offense I’m very confident in our ability to win big games, including in the NCAA a tournament.

[Its DJOver]

We haven’t been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at.  We’re winning at a Mike Deane level.  Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn’t gotten hurt in Wojo’s third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don’t make the tournament. 

Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey.  These guys look Mike Deane players.

Playing the "if" game is a slippery slope, and one that works both ways.

[skianth16]

Pretty much, yup. We got boat raced on the road in a hostile environment where both teams were playing their first meaningful game. Ideal? Of course not. Reason to cancel the season? For reasonable people, no. There were a maximum of maybe 5 teams that might’ve beat IU that night. To me it doesn’t matter if we lose by 45 or 3.

We then competed with, but ultimately lost to, one of what I consider to be a group of maybe 6 teams that can win the national title this year on a neutral court. Again, ideal? No. But reason to cancel the season? Again, no.

Win Friday and we’re just fine. Go 2-1 or better in our last 3 big non-con games (or just go 3-1 including Louisville) and I think we can very easily get to 12 conference wins. If we do that I think we’re a 6ish seed. Which is exactly what I’ve been expecting.

The offense will come around. Chartouny is showing signs of being a floor general which is what we need. My only concern is Markus being a ball stopper. If we get that out of the offense I’m very confident in our ability to win big games, including in the NCAA a tournament.

Not a single comment about Wojo and why you think he's capable of winning. Telling.

[Lennys Tap]

Average of 20 wins the last three years.  One NCAA and one NIT.  .500 record in the Big East in that time period in which the conference was never worse than 3rd in the nation. 

Whoopee!!!!

We're averaging one NCAA berth, one NIT berth and one shutout every 3 years. And zero NCAA tourney wins. Those are lower than the expectations that Mike Deane was fired for.

[wadesworld]

Not a single comment about Wojo and why you think he's capable of winning. Telling.

What are you hoping to hear?

I expect the team Wojo has to be a 6ish seed in the NCAA Tournament this year. What more would make you comfortable?

[WarriorDad]

Whoopee!!!!

We're averaging one NCAA berth, one NIT berth and one shutout every 3 years. And zero NCAA tourney wins. Those are lower than the expectations that Mike Deane was fired for.

If we make the NCAAs this year and next year, which I predict we will in both situations, that will be three NCAAs in four years, with the other year a NIT year.

Mike Deane got fired for terrible recruiting, in an also ran conference, with a trend line that was not good.  Wojo's trend line isn't the same, but rather much higher than Deane's was.  The comparisons are bizarre.

Coach Williams left MU, he also has zero tourney wins in his new stint, but he's doing well.  NCAA tournament wins don't always align with success or failure of the team that year.

[skianth16]

I'll try.  This team has one senior, doesn't even play much.  We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason.  Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS).  It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose.  We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman.  We have a key player out due to a thumb injury.  The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament.  Maybe you had us at 5-0.  Good for you, but you would have been wrong.

Pre-season picks don't matter. Analysts saw the talent and depth on paper that isn't playing out. I highly doubt anyone would have us as a final four contender after seeing the product on the floor so far. And not because it's been awful, but because the expected performance for guys like Joe, Morrow, and Bailey have been not been anywhere close to being met.

I also see the commentary on Greg this year being similar to the commentary on Harry from last year. Be patient, the key piece will be available in a few weeks. Greg was on par or maybe a bit behind Jamal last year. If Greg were able to come back tomorrow and perform at the level Jamal is at right away, it would help with some depth, but ultimately wouldn't make a big impact.

As many others have stated, I'm not as worried about the record as I am about the product on the floor. We haven't competed for 40 minutes yet. I'm not sure we've competed for 30 minutes yet. That is troubling for the remainder of the season when the schedule becomes less lopsided.

[skianth16]

What are you hoping to hear?

I expect the team Wojo has to be a 6ish seed in the NCAA Tournament this year. What more would make you comfortable?

You defend Wojo over and over but offer no reasons why you think he's good at what he does. Critiques of Wojo are specific. Defenses of Wojo are not. Doesn't make sense to me. If you disagree with the criticism, I would think you'd have a similarly long list of things you've seen that make you think he's a good coach or at least that the criticism offered is wrong.

Saying you expect to make the tournament isn't much of an explanation as to why we should believe in Wojo as a head coach.

[wadesworld]

You defend Wojo over and over but offer no reasons why you think he's good at what he does. Critiques of Wojo are specific. Defenses of Wojo are not. Doesn't make sense to me. If you disagree with the criticism, I would think you'd have a similarly long list of things you've seen that make you think he's a good coach or at least that the criticism offered is wrong.

Saying you expect to make the tournament isn't much of an explanation as to why we should believe in Wojo as a head coach.

I believe in Wojo as a head coach because I think he’s put together a team that will compete for a BE title.

All you want to hear is a counter to “our D sucks?” Okay, well our O has been one of the best in the country. Does that help?

Or does this season disprove that? Then wouldn’t the “our D sucks” be disproven?

[Silent Verbal]

Playing the "if" game is a slippery slope, and one that works both ways.

My point was we weren’t a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.

[Its DJOver]

My point was we weren’t a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.

Tournament is a crapshoot. South Carolina was not a top 4 team that year, but they got hot at the right time.

[wadesworld]

My point was we weren’t a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.

Duke must’ve sucked that year too, hey?

UVA must’ve been one of the worst teams in the country last year as evidenced by their blowout loss to a low major program in the tournament.

[WarriorDad]

My point was we weren’t a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.

Was Virginia a good team last year? They were ranked #1 for a good chunk of it, but got blown out in the NCAA tournament by a 16 seed.

In your mind, one game performance defines that a team isn't very good?  Oklahoma made the Final Four a few years ago and Villanova creamed them, therefore Oklahoma wasn't a very good team, as evidence by their blowout loss in the tournament?

The South Carolina team that blew us out, the game was tied with under 10 minutes to play if memory serves.  Also, if memory serves SC went to the Final Four, they were on an amazing run.

[Silent Verbal]

So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it’s beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it’s a crapshoot anyway.  When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season.  If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it’ll be, “We lost to a top 15 team.”  Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, “We lost to the defending national champions.”  I think I’ve got it down.  I’d always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.

[Herman Cain]

So we’re punting on year 5 just 5 games into the season?

No we are just b:;$&ing about a couple of bitter losses.

[wadesworld]

So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it’s beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it’s a crapshoot anyway.  When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season.  If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it’ll be, “We lost to a top 15 team.”  Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, “We lost to the defending national champions.”  I think I’ve got it down.  I’d always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.

Good idea to change your argument.

[Silent Verbal]

Good idea to change your argument.

What’s your argument?  That good teams can lose in a one game playoff?  That the tournament is a crapshoot?  Okay, fine.  Let’s throw out tournament losses, but if we do that, we can also throw out tournament wins.  Post season no matta.  So how does one judge the overall quality of a team in any given season?  By looking at what they did in the regular season?  If that’s the case, in four years and five games at the helm, Wojo has had us ranked exactly once, for one week, at No. 24.  Unfortunately, we then played one of our two toughest games of the season and got knocked out of that spot.

[WarriorDad]

So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it’s beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it’s a crapshoot anyway.  When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season.  If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it’ll be, “We lost to a top 15 team.”  Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, “We lost to the defending national champions.”  I think I’ve got it down.  I’d always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.

You made the very poor argument that because a team was blown out in the NCAA tournament, it means the team wasn't good.  That was a dumb argument, and you were called out for it.

The game was 68-65 with under 10 minutes to play.  It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play. There are blowouts, and then there are games in which in desperation mode you foul at the end, make games outcomes worse than they are. We were the underdog in that game per our seeding.  Two days later they beat Duke.  Then Baylor. Then Florida.  They lost to #1 seed Gonzaga by 4 points.  Again, you were called out for a dumb argument, as you should have been.

[WhiteTrash]

IMHO, We are witnessing the 'beginning of the end'. Not giving up on the season. I'm watching the season and it is not good. I really wanted Wojo to do well but this looks like high water mark and a lot like Tommy Amaker at Michigan.

[Silent Verbal]

You made the very poor argument that because a team was blown out in the NCAA tournament, it means the team wasn't good.  That was a dumb argument, and you were called out for it.

The game was 68-65 with under 10 minutes to play.  It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play. There are blowouts, and then there are games in which in desperation mode you foul at the end, make games outcomes worse than they are. We were the underdog in that game per our seeding.  Two days later they beat Duke.  Then Baylor. Then Florida.  They lost to #1 seed Gonzaga by 4 points.  Again, you were called out for a dumb argument, as you should have been.

We lost the one game we played in the tournament.  At no point in the year were we in the top 25.  We went 4-0 against Creighton and Xavier, who had both lost very key players due to injury.  We weren’t a very good team.  Not terrible, just not especially good.

[goldeneagle91114]

A lot of people also talk about how playing IU at home is hard place to win. When was the last time you could say the same about MU?