Guards

[Aircraftcarrier]

Mu does not have enough quality or quantity. Chartouny is the only player on the team that can handle the ball.Not a recipe to win at the high major level.

[🏀]

I predict this take will not age well.

[Aircraftcarrier]

Truth hurts.8 assists the entire game.Need guards

[🏀]

Truth hurts

Noted.

[Bad_Reporter]

Even if JC could be the next Cadougan that would help.

[🏀]

Even if JC could be the next Cadougan that would help.

The only similarities between Touny and Junior are the position and initials.

[Aircraftcarrier]

I laugh at the people who said Mannion was not a necessity.OK

[mileskishnish72]

Markus as a point is clearly a work in progress. I wonder what he'd think about having Rowsey now.

The announcers mentioned that Chartouny is trying to learn the program. Not to be critical but to date I have not seen this supposed excellent distributor make anything other than a routine pass, usually around the perimeter, but nothing leading to an easy hoop. He looks slow. He had a deflection tonight, but the steals king? I hope he can pick it up but so far he's not living up to the hype.

[GoldenEagle323]

Dont blame this just on the guards... whole team didnt show up outside of hausers'

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The only similarities between Touny and Junior are the position and initials.

And that they're Canucks eh?

[GoldenEagle323]

Hopefully Dex can bring something next season or else... idk

[🏀]

And that they're Canucks eh?

Oooh yah. You got that right, guy.

[🏀]

Hopefully Dex can bring something next season or else... idk

At least you got a real good handle on the roster next year.

[GoldenEagle323]

At least you got a real good handle on the roster next year.

koby hasn't proven anything yet, just because he is apparantly doing good in practice doesn't mean anything till hes in a real game

[JakeBarnes]

Truth hurts.8 assists the entire game.Need guards

Markus is...not great at pg. He forces everything.

I do wish Koby was eligible. He is everything we have ever wanted in pg.

[DCHoopster]

Markus is...not great at pg. He forces everything.

I do wish Koby was eligible. He is everything we have ever wanted in pg.

I agree, I have seen enough of Koby to realize he can get his own shot.  It will take the pressure off of Markus, and make him better.

[lohaus]

Ok, I will admit I turned the game on late. We were already down 15 or so.  Then, the Hausers started to get going. Specifically Joey, who by the way I never questioned his athleticism because he is so fundamentally sound.  The Indiana lead was decreasing...........

.... And then Howard went 'I gotta get mine before you get yours' mode with an air ball and another terrible shot.  Is he a point guard? Hell no! But Joey setting a ball screen for him opened himself up.

Touny and Morrow, I will give them a pass on the other transfers history where I thought they were garbage until December.

[Lennys Tap]

I agree, I have seen enough of Koby to realize he can get his own shot. 

We know he's a stud playing against our own defensive players in practice. So evidently was Ed Morrow.

[#UnleashSean]

koby hasn't proven anything yet, just because he is apparantly doing good in practice doesn't mean anything till hes in a real game

Derrick Wilson made a living by being good in practice 

[Class71]

Does anyone remember Wojo's biggest problem this summer was going to keep all this talent happy due to lack of minutes?  Well it looks like that problem has been solved. The Hausers played plenty of minutes..

[Newsdreams]

Markus as a point is clearly a work in progress. I wonder what he'd think about having Rowsey now.

The announcers mentioned that Chartouny is trying to learn the program. Not to be critical but to date I have not seen this supposed excellent distributor make anything other than a routine pass, usually around the perimeter, but nothing leading to an easy hoop. He looks slow. He had a deflection tonight, but the steals king? I hope he can pick it up but so far he's not living up to the hype.

When he got a run in 2nd half he was driving and making some good passes inside, not his fault that 3 layups were missed. They were missing wide open 3s and layups all game long.

[Markusquette]

What's Elliot's prognosis? He is our next best bet at point guard.

[skianth16]

What's Elliot's prognosis? He is our next best bet at point guard.

Our best bet is Joe. Wojo needs to find a way to get him on the floor for the majority of the game. We know Markus struggle at the point, so there's no need to force the issue right now. Let Joe start, set the tone, get the offense moving, and then when we have some cushion Markus can get his reps. He's a good enough player to get there eventually, but he's not there yet.

Greg may be a serviceable backup at the point in the next year or two, but we need to get the most from our 5th year guy that we can this year.

[Goose]

I would give the keys to the new PG and run with it. There are zero other options. The kid likely is not an upper level PG, but he is only game in town.
I do hope some of the folks on here learn a lesson this season. The eye test is the best judge of how somehow fits a system and ultimate contributes. Many on here saw his numbers and assumed he was the answer.
I do not fault Wojo for taking the kid, but the expectations were quite lofty, IMO.

[Aircraftcarrier]

A team has 13 scholarships and MU has only 3 guards.Elliott gets hurt and now are down to 2 guards. Sacar is not a guard. Just do not understand what Wojo is thinking

[Goose]

Aircraft
I am not sure Greg is a point guard. He hooked onto the new kid 100%. At the moment, it looks like it was not a great bet.

[Aircraftcarrier]

Goose,How can you only have 3 guards on the team and only one can handle the ball.He got away with it last year.Lucky Rowsey did not get hurt.Just poor planning.

[Goose]

Aircraft
PG is more important spot on the court. He missed the target big time.

[barfolomew]

Chartouny's nickname should be The Tax Deduction, based on the number of people here who have written him off.

[Aircraftcarrier]

Goose,
See how much better Wisconsin plays with Trice back.If we had a good point we would be really good.Does not have to be a big scorer.

[brewcity77]

Aircraft
PG is more important spot on the court. He missed the target big time.

The one thing I liked about Buzz's recruiting philosophy was the idea of getting a point guard every year. Didn't always work out, but with transfers and injuries I think it's a wise plan, even if you end up taking a 3-star project.

I think the loss of Traci Carter hurt more than maybe any other in Wojo's tenure. Even if he was a backup to Markus for 3 years, having a reliable ballhandler and defender on the bench at that position is invaluable.

[4everwarriors]

Chartouny is slow with no shot. He's a mid-major player, at best, who, frankly and literally, is out of his league. Smacks of a desparate Wojo move to bring him here, hey?

[Goose]

4ever
He looks like a poor man’s D Wilson to me.

[4everwarriors]

Wilson looked like Kobe compared to this dude.

[brewcity77]

4ever
He looks like a poor man’s D Wilson to me.

I'm still waiting to see how he looks in December. Scoop was ready to run chucker Carlino out of town at this stage of his grad season. That worked out okay. Not saying Chartouny will do similar, he could be a total bust, but MU grad transfers tend to take a little time to acclimate before they show their worth.

[muwarrior69]

Chartouny is slow with no shot. He's a mid-major player, at best, who, frankly and literally, is out of his league. Smacks of a desparate Wojo move to bring him here, hey?

For only one season. Better to have a body than open scholarship and it is still too early. With Koby and Akanno coming in will have more athletic guards.

[tower912]

Carlino, Lockett, Rowsey, and Reinhardt all started ridiculously slowly, too.    To throw in the towel on Chartouny now is just more kneejerk myopia.      First, until Greg gets back, there are no other options other than walk ons.     There was quite a list of people trying to get Chartouny because of who and what he is.     An experienced PG with size who plays defense.     He hasn't found his way yet.   

[The Lens]

The one thing I liked about Buzz's recruiting philosophy was the idea of getting a point guard every year. Didn't always work out, but with transfers and injuries I think it's a wise plan, even if you end up taking a 3-star project.

I think the loss of Traci Carter hurt more than maybe any other in Wojo's tenure. Even if he was a backup to Markus for 3 years, having a reliable ballhandler and defender on the bench at that position is invaluable.

This all day and everyday.  For gosh sakes even Thomas love him. 

RIPtheEngine

[tower912]

I think the loss of Traci Carter hurt more than maybe any other in Wojo's tenure.

I think Haanif hurt more, but having them both this year as seniors sure would have been nice. 

[brewcity77]

I think Haanif hurt more, but having them both this year as seniors sure would have been nice.

We just haven't had enough guys able to play PG. Last two years it was really just Markus & Rowsey & they were often on the court together. This year it's Markus & Chartouny. Maybe Greg will develop into that, but he's more of a 2/3 wing. We had a lot more depth at Haanif's position.

As a former PG, it baffles me that Wojo never seems to have more than 2 on the roster. And he definitely seems to prefer combo guards to true game managers (Rowsey, Howard, Elliott). That should be a position where you always have 2 capable guys with 1-2 more on the roster waiting in the wings.

[1SE]

For better of worse, Chartouney is the PG we'll have to ride this year. Grad transfers start slow - even the better JC hasn't exactly lit it up yet.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/3918721/joe-cremo

That said - I don't understand why Chartouney didn't get max minutes in our first two games. Our entire season depends on him getting up to speed. Let's see what the kid can do - but in order for that to happen he has to be on the floor. If he doesn't get 30 min today this is a major Wojo fail.

[GGGG]

For better of worse, Chartouney is the PG we'll have to ride this year. Grad transfers start slow - even the better JC hasn't exactly lit it up yet.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/3918721/joe-cremo

That said - I don't understand why Chartouney didn't get max minutes in our first two games. Our entire season depends on him getting up to speed. Let's see what the kid can do - but in order for that to happen he has to be on the floor. If he doesn't get 30 min today this is a major Wojo fail.

He won't get 30 minutes today.

He didn't get max minutes in the first two games because it's obvious that he is struggling with integrating into the team.  Right now, I am not TOO concerned about that.  A lot of grad transfers take time.  Now if he is still struggling in a couple of weeks, I will be placing him in the "bust" category.

What should be most concerning, and brew alluded to it earlier, is that Markus may very well be the best option at PG right now.  And the inability of Wojo to recruit a quality PG, or thinking that Markus was the best option, is his largest issue right now.  It may well end up being the downfall of him as a coach at MU.

[1SE]

He won't get 30 minutes today.

He didn't get max minutes in the first two games because it's obvious that he is struggling with integrating into the team.  Right now, I am not TOO concerned about that.  A lot of grad transfers take time.  Now if he is still struggling in a couple of weeks, I will be placing him in the "bust" category.

What should be most concerning, and brew alluded to it earlier, is that Markus may very well be the best option at PG right now.  And the inability of Wojo to recruit a quality PG, or thinking that Markus was the best option, is his largest issue right now.  It may well end up being the downfall of him as a coach at MU.

But we already know Markus' ceiling as a PG (not very high). We don't know Chartouny's yet. So give him max minutes against the cupcakes to see if he can find it.

If he's already there then we are well and truly f*cked this season.

[GGGG]

But we already know Markus' ceiling as a PG (not very high). We don't know Chartouny's yet. So give him max minutes against the cupcakes to see if he can find it.

Wojo knows more than we do.  Playing time isn't some sort of addition for the fans.

And I'm not saying he's great, but Markus' horrible PG play has been a bit exaggerated here.  After his three early turnovers, he settled down a bit.  His hero ball was a clear problem too.  Those are all correctable mistakes - the question is will he correct them.

If he's already there then we are well and truly f*cked this season.

I would say that JC's contributions were a key part to determining our success this year.

[79Warrior]

I'm still waiting to see how he looks in December. Scoop was ready to run chucker Carlino out of town at this stage of his grad season. That worked out okay. Not saying Chartouny will do similar, he could be a total bust, but MU grad transfers tend to take a little time to acclimate before they show their worth.

At least Matt's shot went toward the basket. I would feel better if JC's shot could actually hit the rim.

[tower912]

Sultan, you reference a point I have been making for a while.  Like Henry stopped a couple of talented forwards from coming to MU, like Yogi Ferrell at IU under Cream, Markus' presence is a block for other talented PG's.   Traci left.  Wojo has landed zero others.   The perception is that Markus is the man and newcomers will ha e to sit and wait.  In my opinion.

[Goose]

To have Matt Carlino and Joe C in same discussion troubles me. I hope JC turns into a serviceable PG for this squad, but to think he has Carlino upside seems to be quite a reach to me.

[jesmu84]

To have Matt Carlino and Joe C in same discussion troubles me. I hope JC turns into a serviceable PG for this squad, but to think he has Carlino upside seems to be quite a reach to me.

Has anyone said that?

[Goose]

jesmu
I forgot how much I dislike your posts during the off-season. Thanks for reminding me.
To address your point and mine, brew made comparison on how folks were down on Matt early in his year at MU and things turned out. It turned out because Matt was a legit D1 player. I hope JC ends up being a poor man’s D Wilson.

[jesmu84]

jesmu
I forgot how much I dislike your posts during the off-season. Thanks for reminding me.
To address your point and mine, brew made comparison on how folks were down on Matt early in his year at MU and things turned out. It turned out because Matt was a legit D1 player. I hope JC ends up being a poor man’s D Wilson.

I agree with Brew and made a similar post. As a whole, this board, in the past, has quickly written off players like Katin, Carlino, Lockett.

Yet those players, once time to acclimate, succeeded.

All I'm saying is give the freshmen and transfers time. Will any of them produce like those in the past? Maybe. Maybe not. But it seems slightly unfair and unreasonable to give up on them 3 games into a season.

Is that fair?

[Goose]

jesmu
Completely fair and I feel the same way. Only difference, what are realistic expectations for the newcomers? Just because we landed high level grad transfers in the past does not mean it is an automatic.
I definitely still have hopes that Morrow and the guard pan out.

[jesmu84]

jesmu
Completely fair and I feel the same way. Only difference, what are realistic expectations for the newcomers? Just because we landed high level grad transfers in the past does not mean it is an automatic.
I definitely still have hopes that Morrow and the guard pan out.

Honestly not sure. I would hope for similar numbers from their previous programs. Maybe that's asking for too much if theyre moving up in opponent difficulty.

But I do believe they will all need time to adapt/adjust

[1SE]

Wojo knows more than we do. Playing time isn't some sort of addition for the fans.

And I'm not saying he's great, but Markus' horrible PG play has been a bit exaggerated here.  After his three early turnovers, he settled down a bit.  His hero ball was a clear problem too.  Those are all correctable mistakes - the question is will he correct them.


I would say that JC's contributions were a key part to determining our success this year.

But game time is different than practice. You need to see how players respond in a game. Sometimes it takes players more time to get into a game (or game mode for the season).

I see zero drawback in giving JC more PT vs. the cupcakes. We aren't going to lose. We need him at PG. Additional minutes can only help him get his "game form".

Frankly, I haven't seen anything over the past 5 years that shows me that Wojo is a better game time manager of personnel than a good high school coach - some of which are probably on this board. And the corollary - are there people on this board that could do a better job of in-game coaching than Wojo? Yes.

[ATL MU Warrior]

But game time is different than practice. You need to see how players respond in a game. Sometimes it takes players more time to get into a game (or game mode for the season).

I see zero drawback in giving JC more PT vs. the cupcakes. We aren't going to lose. We need him at PG. Additional minutes can only help him get his "game form".

Frankly, I haven't seen anything over the past 5 years that shows me that Wojo is a better game time manager of personnel than a good high school coach - some of which are probably on this board. And the corollary - are there people on this board that could do a better job of in-game coaching than Wojo? Yes.

Don’t be an idiot

[1SE]

Don’t be an idiot

I'm not saying me - but given the level of basketball knowledge on this board - certainly so.

I also didn't say run a D-I basketball program from top to bottom. I said the 40 minutes when the clock is running which is one small part of the overall job.

 

[brewcity77]

First, the message boards were ready to run Carlino out of town after his first few games. Until that Georgia Tech game, the consensus was that he was nothing more than a chucker.

Chartouny had, like Carlino, some mixed results in a comparable league. Honestly, it seems like Fordham fans expected to miss him more than BYU fans did Carlino. They are vastly different players, so I don't expect their numbers to look similar at all, but I don't think this team has the same needs 2015 did either. I hope he can play 20-25 minutes and give us about 8 ppg/6 apg/2 spg with solid defense.

[1SE]

First, the message boards were ready to run Carlino out of town after his first few games. Until that Georgia Tech game, the consensus was that he was nothing more than a chucker.

Chartouny had, like Carlino, some mixed results in a comparable league. Honestly, it seems like Fordham fans expected to miss him more than BYU fans did Carlino. They are vastly different players, so I don't expect their numbers to look similar at all, but I don't think this team has the same needs 2015 did either. I hope he can play 20-25 minutes and give us about 8 ppg/6 apg/2 spg with solid defense.

If he gives us 6 apg we're golden.

[brewcity77]

If he gives us 6 apg we're golden.

I know that's a lofty number, but honestly my only real hopes for him on offense are to be enough of a threat to be respected to drive or shoot and mainly distribute, distribute, distribute.

[GGGG]

are there people on this board that could do a better job of in-game coaching than Wojo? Yes.

Are you serious?  If you truly believe this, you have a complete lack of understanding of how difficult the job is to be a basketball coach.  And I'm just talking "in-game."  It's not just some sort of video game.

[Goose]

Brew
You are correct, many uneducated ball followers wanted to chase Matt out of town. Anyone that knows a lick about the sport knew otherwise.

[WarriorDad]

Frankly, I haven't seen anything over the past 5 years that shows me that Wojo is a better game time manager of personnel than a good high school coach - some of which are probably on this board. And the corollary - are there people on this board that could do a better job of in-game coaching than Wojo? Yes.

Dumb.  This is like the crazies that say Alabama could beat the worst NFL team, each year those people come out of the woodwork, too.

[Jockey]

Carlino was a very average player.

He was a 40% shooter - not 40% from 3, but 40% overall. He only scored 15 a game despite being a designated gunner on a bad shooting team.

[Goose]

Jockey
Thanks for making my point.

[Herman Cain]

Carlino was a very average player.

He was a 40% shooter - not 40% from 3, but 40% overall. He only scored 15 a game despite being a designated gunner on a bad shooting team.

Carlino stats by year. Was 42 percent from three in his year at MU.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/51309/matt-carlino

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Carlino stats by year. Was 42 percent from three in his year at MU.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/51309/matt-carlino

Yes, and was 40% from the floor.

But Goose is right on this one. Car3no was an excellent player for us.

[brewcity77]

Carlino was a very average player.

He was a 40% shooter - not 40% from 3, but 40% overall. He only scored 15 a game despite being a designated gunner on a bad shooting team.

And this is why FG% can be a deceiving stat. Carlino had an eFG% of 53.3, which is very good. Not Howard level good, but on that team it was elite considering he was at the top of every opponent's scouting chart. That team was not good. Without Carlino, it would've been disastrously bad.

[Its DJOver]

I think the most frustrating thing about Markus is that he has shown flashes of being a decent PG, but nothing consistently, and still too many turnovers.  Looking at the play by play, there was a stretch in the second half where Markus was making all the right decisions.

"7:45-Joseph Chartouny made three point jumper.  Assisted by Markus Howard."  Markus beat his man off the dribble, Joeseph's came to help, and Markus made the right pass, for a wide open three.

"7:07-Theo John made dunk.  Assisted by Markus Howard."  High pick-n-roll, Theo's man doubled Markus, one ball fake, and then a dump down to Theo for an easy dunk.

"6:34-Sam Hauser made layup, assisted by Markus Howard."  Joey set a back screen on Sam's man, and Markus made a nice entry pass into Sam for an easy layup.  Sam also got fouled and converted the three point play.

"5:59-Offensive foul on Theo John."  Same exact play with Theo.  Found him wide open, just the PC defender rotated over and drew a charge.  No basket, but still the right play by Markus.

That's 3 assists, and another that could have been one in about 2 minutes.  That's a very good return.  I still think Chartouny should be the primary ball handler, because that allows Markus to run off screens, where he is at his best, but flashes have been there from Markus that he can still be a decent backup, which is all we should need him to be.

[GGGG]

Well stated.  He shouldn't be the primary PG, but Markus can play the point if he plays within himself.

[brewcity77]

I think the most frustrating thing about Markus is that he has shown flashes of being a decent PG, but nothing consistently, and still too many turnovers.  Looking at the play by play, there was a stretch in the second half where Markus was making all the right decisions.

"7:45-Joseph Chartouny made three point jumper.  Assisted by Markus Howard."  Markus beat his man off the dribble, Joeseph's came to help, and Markus made the right pass, for a wide open three.

"7:07-Theo John made dunk.  Assisted by Markus Howard."  High pick-n-roll, Theo's man doubled Markus, one ball fake, and then a dump down to Theo for an easy dunk.

"6:34-Sam Hauser made layup, assisted by Markus Howard."  Joey set a back screen on Sam's man, and Markus made a nice entry pass into Sam for an easy layup.  Sam also got fouled and converted the three point play.

"5:59-Offensive foul on Theo John."  Same exact play with Theo.  Found him wide open, just the PC defender rotated over and drew a charge.  No basket, but still the right play by Markus.

That's 3 assists, and another that could have been one in about 2 minutes.  That's a very good return.  I still think Chartouny should be the primary ball handler, because that allows Markus to run off screens, where he is at his best, but flashes have been there from Markus that he can still be a decent backup, which is all we should need him to be.

I enjoyed that stretch greatly. The Chartouny and John passes really stood out at the time. It felt like last year with Rowsey. Some games he was a complete player, scoring and dishing, others he wouldn't give up the ball.

And here I was hoping what Markus would pick up from Rowsey in the off-season was The Thing...