Record Enrollment but Freshman Rention Rate Declines

[PorkysButthole]

Solid reporting from the MU Wire below.

https://marquettewire.org/3998227/news/record-breaking-enrollment-numbers-in-class-of-2022/

Key Takeaways:

Record freshmen enrollment for class of 2022

The first to second year retention rate is down to 87 percent for students admitted in 2017. This is a decline from 89.3% in 2016 and represents the lowest percentage in available data, which starts with 2004.

On the flip side, The four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent, a Marquette record.  The six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 is 85 percent, another record but both positive ones!

I know the majority of fellow scoopers think I and other east coasters make a much bigger deal out of MU's high acceptance rate than we should, and I was very pleased that MU's 2019 USNR ranking didn't decline because of it, and actually went up a point, vindicating Sultan's POV on this issue.

That said, the fact that the lowest first to second year retention rate all the years they've been tracking that data coincided with a Fall 2017 acceptance of 89% isn't surprising in the least.  I didn't think a 2.3% decline was that big of a deal when I first read this until I read the next sentence which said it was the lowest figure in all the year's they've been keeping track since 2004.  That really hit home.

At the same , the four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent and the six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 was 85 percent.....both records in a positive sense that coincided with acceptance rates of 57% for Fall 2012, and 64% for Fall 2014.

Thoughts?

[tower912]

Trust the process.

[jsglow]

Bigger + more diverse + more 'first in family' + record 6 year graduation rates = a stable, successful university; all in an era where the midwestern pool is shrinking significantly.

I'm also told that it's either a record or near record composite ACT for the class.  I don't have firm figures yet.

Win Every Day!

[jsglow]

I'm also going to speculate about the Frosh retention rate.  I have no hard data on this.  As MU goes more national in scope, the Frosh retention rate might expect to take a little hit.  I suspect, but am not certain, that students from far away are more likely than 'locals' to experience homesickness, winter weather shock, cultural differences, etc. at a higher rate.  How many kids head off to California only to return after the reality doesn't fit their 17 year old dream expectation?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So ya saying da skool has a transfer problem?  Where's willie?

[Dr. Blackheart]

In 1970, 4.7% of the US population was born in another country. Today, it is about 13%.  In 2030 it will be 15.2% which will be a higher rate than the historic high of 14.8% set in 1850.  Yes 1850, the year that Zachary Taylor died in office.

This will hit 17.2% in 2060.  MU is doing the right things for the future, including its capital investments.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Bigger + more diverse + more 'first in family' + record 6 year graduation rates = a stable, successful university; all in an era where the midwestern pool is shrinking significantly.

I'm also told that it's either a record or near record composite ACT for the class.  I don't have firm figures yet.

Win Every Day!

ACT - It was almost non-existent here in the Northeast.  A lot of students have chosen to take it the last few years.  My daughter is taking later this month so she has a score in time for the Dec. 1 application deadlines (including her Marquette application).  She wanted in her transcript.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

ACT - It was almost non-existent here in the Northeast.  A lot of students have chosen to take it the last few years.  My daughter is taking later this month so she has a score in time for the Dec. 1 application deadlines (including her Marquette application).  She wanted in her transcript.

I feel like it goes in waves. I remember when I was younger like 5th or 6th grade teachers would only talk about the SAT.

Fast forward to high school and I think the only people who took the SAT were the ones who were applying to the Ivy's.

[PorkysButthole]

ACT - It was almost non-existent here in the Northeast.  A lot of students have chosen to take it the last few years.  My daughter is taking later this month so she has a score in time for the Dec. 1 application deadlines (including her Marquette application).  She wanted in her transcript.

Probably because IL switched from ACT to SAT a couple of years ago so they need to make up that loss which was a big one.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-chooses-sat-met-20160211-story.html

[GGGG]

Solid reporting from the MU Wire below.

https://marquettewire.org/3998227/news/record-breaking-enrollment-numbers-in-class-of-2022/

Key Takeaways:

Record freshmen enrollment for class of 2022

The first to second year retention rate is down to 87 percent for students admitted in 2017. This is a decline from 89.3% in 2016 and represents the lowest percentage in available data, which starts with 2004.

On the flip side, The four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent, a Marquette record.  The six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 is 85 percent, another record but both positive ones!

I know the majority of fellow scoopers think I and other east coasters make a much bigger deal out of MU's high acceptance rate than we should, and I was very pleased that MU's 2019 USNR ranking didn't decline because of it, and actually went up a point, vindicating Sultan's POV on this issue.

That said, the fact that the lowest first to second year retention rate all the years they've been tracking that data coincided with a Fall 2017 acceptance of 89% isn't surprising in the least.  I didn't think a 2.3% decline was that big of a deal when I first read this until I read the next sentence which said it was the lowest figure in all the year's they've been keeping track since 2004.  That really hit home.

At the same , the four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent and the six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 was 85 percent.....both records in a positive sense that coincided with acceptance rates of 57% for Fall 2012, and 64% for Fall 2014.

Thoughts?

Most often, retention doesn't mean academic issues. It usually means a lack of fit - or a lack of place. In other words, the students got to campus but never felt that they fit in.

So I don't think your assessment that it was due to acceptance rate is much of a factor.  Because I also think I recall hearing that the class was quite talented academically as well.  If it was more diverse, that could be an issue.  Many underepresented minorities retain at a lower rate even if their academics are fine.  They may simply have the same trouble with fit, or if they are first generation college students, oftentimes such students don't persist due to a lack of understanding and/or support from their family.

Another issue could be that how Marquette presented itself from an admissions perspective, wasn't as authentic as what the student experience turned out to be.  There could be some "buyer's remorse" from that perspective.

Retention is a very complicated issue with multiple factors.  So much so that there are consultants that specialize in building and maintaining a comprehensive retention program.

Also, USN&WR is dropping acceptance rate as a criteria. 

[jsglow]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

[WarriorDad]

In 1970, 4.7% of the US population was born in another country. Today, it is about 13%.  In 2030 it will be 15.2% which will be a higher rate than the historic high of 14.8% set in 1850.  Yes 1850, the year that Zachary Taylor died in office.

This will hit 17.2% in 2060.  MU is doing the right things for the future, including its capital investments.

1850 was less than 10% 1890 was high water mark at 14.8% according to the gov't. 

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf

[GGGG]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

Well it is an issue.  And its a financial one at that.  They probably assumed something higher based on historical averages and budgeted to that number.  Its nearly impossible to make up for that with new freshmen since by that point they have already made their choices.

The real question is whether or not its a one-time blip or something more fundamental.

[jsglow]

True dat Sultan.  It is about 40 extra kids so I'm sure they're paying attention to see if any trends emerge.

[Babybluejeans]

Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.

With an 89% (!) acceptance rate, this is probably untrue.

[WarriorDad]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

Some for sure would not be admitted today, but with that high of an acceptance rate the numbers don't exactly support the comment.

[tower912]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

I like my chances.   Michigan, and Notre Dame accepted me, too.   I chose Marquette. 

[WarriorDad]

I like my chances.   Michigan, and Notre Dame accepted me, too.   I chose Marquette.

Similar for me. 

[GGGG]

With an 89% (!) acceptance rate, this is probably untrue.

Again, they are targeting a smaller population.  That is why the acceptance rate is higher.  The statistic is meaningless.

[warriorchick]

I would like to see what the retention rate is for each of the years included in this statistic.

"The lowest since 2004" isn't all that meaningful as a stand-alone stat if it is within a couple of tenths of several other years. For Marquette, each tenth represents about 2 students.

As a comparison, I found several sources that say the average retention rate for a private university is about 80%.  Average for a public institution is 72%.

[Billy Hoyle]

Solid reporting from the MU Wire below.

https://marquettewire.org/3998227/news/record-breaking-enrollment-numbers-in-class-of-2022/

Key Takeaways:

Record freshmen enrollment for class of 2022

The first to second year retention rate is down to 87 percent for students admitted in 2017. This is a decline from 89.3% in 2016 and represents the lowest percentage in available data, which starts with 2004.

On the flip side, The four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent, a Marquette record.  The six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 is 85 percent, another record but both positive ones!

I know the majority of fellow scoopers think I and other east coasters make a much bigger deal out of MU's high acceptance rate than we should, and I was very pleased that MU's 2019 USNR ranking didn't decline because of it, and actually went up a point, vindicating Sultan's POV on this issue.

That said, the fact that the lowest first to second year retention rate all the years they've been tracking that data coincided with a Fall 2017 acceptance of 89% isn't surprising in the least.  I didn't think a 2.3% decline was that big of a deal when I first read this until I read the next sentence which said it was the lowest figure in all the year's they've been keeping track since 2004.  That really hit home.

At the same , the four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent and the six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 was 85 percent.....both records in a positive sense that coincided with acceptance rates of 57% for Fall 2012, and 64% for Fall 2014.

Thoughts?

89% acceptance rate?  That's Arizona State like.  Yikes!MU not

Retention is up from when I was there in the 90's, I think we were in the 70's and the university was rightfully very concerned.  As some have mentioned, there are many factors involved, but I do think cost is at the forefront. I know I would have left had I not gotten an additional scholarship and that was when the cost was "only" $20K all in.

The graduation rate is a bit disturbing.  67% is far below peer institutions. That either points to MU bringing in kids who are not prepared for the rigor or MU or MU not providing the resources to get students through in 6 years. 

ACT and SAT score compared to previous times is not really a good measure as those scores have been inflated, especially the SAT.  I don't remember my SAT score (I didn't go to an Ivy so it isn't on my resume to constantly remind me) but I've read that one who took the test more than 15 years ago should add 200 points to their score to get an equivalent score today.  And, of course, we know grade inflation is rampant today, especially at the stronger private schools.

[GGGG]

I would like to see what the retention rate is for each of the years included in this statistic.

"The lowest since 2004" isn't all that meaningful as a stand-alone stat if it is within a couple of tenths of several other years. For Marquette, each tenth represents about 2 students.

As a comparison, I found several sources that say the average retention rate for a private university is about 80%.  Average for a public institution is 72%.

It's the lowest by nearly a full percent.

http://www.marquette.edu/oira/rate-dash.shtml

Playing around with that graph is interesting.  Under "Cohort Rates" you can isolate the problem.  It looks as though they are having issues with underepresented minorities, particularly males.  The black, hispanic and more than one race categories are well below historic averages. 

Then if you look at this graph under "Undergraduate Students," you will see that the number of "Students of Color" went up as well - by 5% over five years.  Particularly focused on Hispanic students.

http://www.marquette.edu/oira/composition-dash.shtml

And then you go back to this announcement, and I think we may have a greater understanding of the underlying issues at play.

http://www.marquette.edu/diversity/hispanic-serving-institution-initiative.php

In narrowing the data down, it looks as though Marquette brought in 330 Hispanic freshmen in Fall 2017, which is a 75% increase over that four year span.  However they only retained 84% of those 330 whereas they retained 89% of the 188 Hispanic freshmen in 2014.

I wonder if they realized this issue by bringing in 310 Hispanic freshmen this year.  Maybe the program grew too far, too fast and they didn't have the infrastructure to handle it.

[GGGG]

89% acceptance rate?  That's Arizona State like.  Yikes!MU not

Retention is up from when I was there in the 90's, I think we were in the 70's and the university was rightfully very concerned.  As some have mentioned, there are many factors involved, but I do think cost is at the forefront. I know I would have left had I not gotten an additional scholarship and that was when the cost was "only" $20K all in.

The graduation rate is a bit disturbing.  67% is far below peer institutions. That either points to MU bringing in kids who are not prepared for the rigor or MU or MU not providing the resources to get students through in 6 years. 

You are misreading.  67% is the four year rate.  The six-year rate is 85%.

[jsglow]

You are misreading.  67% is the four year rate.  The six-year rate is 85%.

And 6 years is the standard industry measurement.

[jsglow]

Again, they are targeting a smaller population.  That is why the acceptance rate is higher.  The statistic is meaningless.

This.

[jsglow]

It's the lowest by nearly a full percent.

http://www.marquette.edu/oira/rate-dash.shtml

Playing around with that graph is interesting.  Under "Cohort Rates" you can isolate the problem.  It looks as though they are having issues with underepresented minorities, particularly males.  The black, hispanic and more than one race categories are well below historic averages. 

Then if you look at this graph under "Undergraduate Students," you will see that the number of "Students of Color" went up as well - by 5% over five years.  Particularly focused on Hispanic students.

http://www.marquette.edu/oira/composition-dash.shtml

And then you go back to this announcement, and I think we may have a greater understanding of the underlying issues at play.

http://www.marquette.edu/diversity/hispanic-serving-institution-initiative.php

In narrowing the data down, it looks as though Marquette brought in 330 Hispanic freshmen in Fall 2017, which is a 75% increase over that four year span.  However they only retained 84% of those 330 whereas they retained 89% of the 188 Hispanic freshmen in 2014.

I wonder if they realized this issue by bringing in 310 Hispanic freshmen this year.  Maybe the program grew too far, too fast and they didn't have the infrastructure to handle it.

Good empirical work there Sultan.  Next time I'm in a position to ask, I'll try.

[GGGG]

Thank you glow.  It's a top-of-mind subject.  We talk about retention rates all of the time.

OTOH, we never talk about acceptance rates.  Not even on our radar.

[Dr. Blackheart]

1850 was less than 10% 1890 was high water mark at 14.8% according to the gov't. 

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cspan_fb_slides.pdf

Yikes.  I need new glasses although it was truncated in the presentation I was reading.  Benjamin Harrison was Prez.  Pretty incredible.

[PBRme]

Probably because IL switched from ACT to SAT a couple of years ago so they need to make up that loss which was a big one.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-chooses-sat-met-20160211-story.html

That alone could account for the record ACT scores

[4everwarriors]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

Willin' ta bet huge somes eye'd make da kut, hey?

[SaveOD238]

I have no reason to believe that the retention issue (if there's an issue at all) has anything at all to do with academics.  The quality of the incoming class over the past 5-10 years has been stellar.  As Sultan said, it's a fit thing.

I've told you guys before.  Half of you clowns that graduated 'back in the day' would have zero chance at getting admitted today.  In fact I'd personally make sure of that with a VETO for some of you!

Every year there will be kids who flunk out or who can't cut it academically for whatever reason.  But I agree with you that most of the retention rate is probably due to fit.

Case in point, we sent three very academically gifted seniors from where I teach to Marquette last fall.  Around October, I heard through the rumor mill (other students and little siblings) that all three were considering transferring to Madison.  Based on the story I heard, it was because the three of them roomed together and did little to get out and meet people.  They went to Madison for a weekend and their friends took them to a party.  So, to them, Marquette seemed "boring."  For whatever reason, (and I'd argue it was mostly their fault), Marquette didn't seem to be a fit for them.

Happy Ending: At least two of the three decided not to transfer.  I'm not sure about the third.

On the OTHER hand, I have run into another ex-student, now a senior, twice on campus in the last month.  I wasn't convinced he would make it academically, but he is succeeding, seems really happy, and has an awesome internship.  Fit and experience matters.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Similar for me.

Where did ya go to grad school, kin?

[Herman Cain]

Solid reporting from the MU Wire below.

https://marquettewire.org/3998227/news/record-breaking-enrollment-numbers-in-class-of-2022/

Key Takeaways:

Record freshmen enrollment for class of 2022

The first to second year retention rate is down to 87 percent for students admitted in 2017. This is a decline from 89.3% in 2016 and represents the lowest percentage in available data, which starts with 2004.

On the flip side, The four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent, a Marquette record.  The six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 is 85 percent, another record but both positive ones!

I know the majority of fellow scoopers think I and other east coasters make a much bigger deal out of MU's high acceptance rate than we should, and I was very pleased that MU's 2019 USNR ranking didn't decline because of it, and actually went up a point, vindicating Sultan's POV on this issue.

That said, the fact that the lowest first to second year retention rate all the years they've been tracking that data coincided with a Fall 2017 acceptance of 89% isn't surprising in the least.  I didn't think a 2.3% decline was that big of a deal when I first read this until I read the next sentence which said it was the lowest figure in all the year's they've been keeping track since 2004.  That really hit home.

At the same , the four-year graduation rate for the class of 2014 was 67 percent and the six-year graduation rate for students who began in 2012 was 85 percent.....both records in a positive sense that coincided with acceptance rates of 57% for Fall 2012, and 64% for Fall 2014.

Thoughts?

This supports everything I have been saying. MU is chasing diversity for diversity sake and slowly reducing its reputation. These kids leave because they can't do the work. period.

Here is the reality,all the good minority kids go to higher rated schools. If a kid has a choice of MU or Georgetown where do you think he or she is going to go. It is just a fact of life, which is why I say up the standards and make it harder to get in. Then if you really want minorities you will actually get some good ones. 

My kids where good athletes and good students and because of their race had literally their choice of any school. It was that way for their similarly situated friends.   

MU has the horsepower to upgrade it just needs to understand that there are other schools better situated to help the weaker students. Go with strength and you will always be better off.

The soft bigotry of low expectations is a self fulfilling prophecy.

[reinko]

This supports everything I have been saying. MU is chasing diversity for diversity sake and slowly reducing its reputation. These kids leave because they can't do the work. period.

Here is the reality,all the good minority kids go to higher rated schools. If a kid has a choice of MU or Georgetown where do you think he or she is going to go. It is just a fact of life, which is why I say up the standards and make it harder to get in. Then if you really want minorities you will actually get some good ones. 

My kids where good athletes and good students and because of their race had literally their choice of any school. It was that way for their similarly situated friends.   

MU has the horsepower to upgrade it just needs to understand that there are other schools better situated to help the weaker students. Go with strength and you will always be better off.

The soft bigotry of low expectations is a self fulfilling prophecy.

See y’all, it’s that easy.  MU just has to more than triple it’s endowment to 1.7 billion, turn our law school into one that is ranked top 10 in the country, and move the university to a city that is dead center in one of the most politically powerful neighborhoods in the world.  And the solution, admit less Black and Latino kids.

[GGGG]

Yeah Herman really doesn't understand Marquette's mission.

[Herman Cain]

Yeah Herman really doesn't understand Marquette's mission.

Marquette stopped being part of that mission many years ago. It is a high end expensive private university that caters to top 20 percent kids from wealth suburbs and needs to behave like one and be proud of it.

Other schools serve that mission much better at lower cost to everyone. There is a cost to people who have paid a lot of money to have their hard earned degrees debased.

[GGGG]

Marquette stopped being part of that mission many years ago. It is a high end expensive private university that caters to top 20 percent kids from wealth suburbs and needs to behave like one and be proud of it.

Tell that to the Jesuits.

Other schools serve that mission much better at lower cost to everyone. There is a cost to people who have paid a lot of money to have their hard earned degrees debased.

That's just a load of horsesh*t right there.  If anyone views that their degree is being "debased" then the problem is actually staring at them in the mirror

[jsglow]

Yeah Herman really doesn't understand Marquette's mission.

I'm not up for the argument with Herman.  It just really saddens me to read what he wrote.

[warriorchick]

I'm not up for the argument with Herman.  It just really saddens me to read what he wrote because it's complete bullish!t

FIFY

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not up for the argument with Herman.  It just really saddens me to read what he wrote.

This, sometimes I feel the need to shower after reading his comments because I feel gross for trying to give a fair moment of thought to what he's saying.

[WarriorDad]

Speaking of ACT results, this came out yesterday.  Math readiness in this country at a 14 year low, continues the decline started in 2012. 

http://leadershipblog.act.org/2018/10/math-readiness-drops-to-14-year-low.html

[SaveOD238]

This supports everything I have been saying. MU is chasing diversity for diversity sake and slowly reducing its reputation. These kids leave because they can't do the work. period.

Here is the reality,all the good minority kids go to higher rated schools. If a kid has a choice of MU or Georgetown where do you think he or she is going to go. It is just a fact of life, which is why I say up the standards and make it harder to get in. Then if you really want minorities you will actually get some good ones. 

My kids where good athletes and good students and because of their race had literally their choice of any school. It was that way for their similarly situated friends.   

MU has the horsepower to upgrade it just needs to understand that there are other schools better situated to help the weaker students. Go with strength and you will always be better off.

The soft bigotry of low expectations is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Let me first say that the majority of what Herman says here is complete crap.  I do not think MU is suffering because it is chasing diversity, and I don't think racial and ethnic diversity on campus has anything to do with retention rates, unless you're thinking of how students of color might feel out of place at a pretty white school.  In fact, I think chasing diversity is a sound business strategy for a school looking to succeed not just because of the cultural good will it provides but because having a diverse organization (school, business, etc) creates better outcomes. 

However, that bolded line is absolutely 100% right on.  If we as a society hold students to low expectations, they will only rise to meet those low expectations.  In my experience as an educator I've learned that the secret to teaching disadvantaged students is to treat them like they can succeed and succeed at a high level (because they can).  They will rise to the occasion if a culture of achievement is created.

[GGGG]

Let me first say that the majority of what Herman says here is complete crap.  I do not think MU is suffering because it is chasing diversity, and I don't think racial and ethnic diversity on campus has anything to do with retention rates, unless you're thinking of how students of color might feel out of place at a pretty white school.  In fact, I think chasing diversity is a sound business strategy for a school looking to succeed not just because of the cultural good will it provides but because having a diverse organization (school, business, etc) creates better outcomes. 

However, that bolded line is absolutely 100% right on.  If we as a society hold students to low expectations, they will only rise to meet those low expectations.  In my experience as an educator I've learned that the secret to teaching disadvantaged students is to treat them like they can succeed and succeed at a high level (because they can).  They will rise to the occasion if a culture of achievement is created.

Yeah but I would argue Marquette is doing the exact opposite.  They are treating them like they can succeed at a high level despite the disadvantages they had trying up.

[tower912]

Hopefully, future graduates can spell 'retention', not 'rention'.

[jsglow]

Yeah but I would argue Marquette is doing the exact opposite.  They are treating them like they can succeed at a high level despite the disadvantages they had trying up.

This is exactly right.  I am close friends with several guys who were EOP back in the day and remain active sponsors of the program.  There is no room on campus for lowered expectations for anyone.  Not one iota.  Now is their additional support mostly in the realm of 'adjustment' and 'study skills'?  Yep.  But the academic standard is unwavering, as it should be. 

[GGGG]

This is exactly right.  I am close friends with several guys who were EOP back in the day and remain active sponsors of the program.  There is no room on campus for lowered expectations for anyone.  Not one iota.  Now is their additional support mostly in the realm of 'adjustment' and 'study skills'?  Yep.  But the academic standard is unwavering, as it should be. 

And my guess is that such support is open to the entire student body, but it is simply pushed more to that audience. 

[SaveOD238]

Yeah but I would argue Marquette is doing the exact opposite.  They are treating them like they can succeed at a high level despite the disadvantages they had trying up.

Good.

[jesmu84]

Yeah Herman really doesn't understand Marquette's mission.

Is Herman even an alum?

[warriorchick]

Is Herman even an alum?

He has been directly asked that question on multiple occasions and has ignored it.  It's safe to assume that he is not.

[4everwarriors]

Ta bee fare, it don't matta. Wee all just bee people, hey?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is Herman even an alum?

He has been directly asked that question on multiple occasions and has ignored it.  It's safe to assume that he is not.

He's answered. He is not an alum. Though 4ever is correct,  that doesn't make his opinion better or worse. That being said, I disagree with him here

[GGGG]

He's answered. He is not an alum. Though 4ever is correct,  that doesn't make his opinion better or worse. That being said, I disagree with him here

I would say that not being an alum means that you may not have as deep appreciation of the mission of the institution.

[Disco Hippie]

I've been as critical of MU's extremely unconventional enrollment strategy as anyone the past couple of years, but since US News de-emphasized acceptance rates, MU's ranking thankfully didn't decline and actually went up a point.   

Look, I'm supportive of MU's diversity efforts and applaud their efforts to make higher education more accessible to first generation college students but they've prioritized this "mission" above all else to the point where MU seems more interested in being a social service organization than a university.  That's what irks me.

 Again I think they should continue to do everything they're doing in that vein, but the extent to which they wear the "mission" on their sleeve is not only annoying but arguably disingenuous.  While shrouded in the veil of altruism, MU's end game is to receive Title V funds from the feds, which they'll be eligible to apply for if they achieve their goal of becoming a "Hispanic Serving Institution".   Again, nothing wrong with that and I'm not saying that's their sole motivation but just want to keep them honest. 

As for Herman Cain's comments, it's not realistic for MU to follow the path he suggests and although I found much of what he said to be mean spirited and insensitive, his POV absolutely reflects the northeastern sensibility.  US News may have de-emphasized acceptance rates but students and their parents in Herman and my neck of the woods have not and aren't going to anytime soon. 

MU's policy is repelling instead of encouraging exactly the types of students they claim to want to enroll more of from even applying and that's a shame.  I thought MU wanted to diversify the geographic footprint from which their undergraduate students come from but instead they're going out of their way to make themselves as unattractive as possible to prospective students from this region.

 I know most of you don't care because you don't live here, but I do, and because people with attitudes like Herman's are pervasive here, recruiting kids to MU has become very difficult in recent years and an uphill battle that's frustrating as hell.  That was not the case 5 years ago.

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[ZiggysFryBoy]

I've been as critical of MU's extremely unconventional enrollment strategy as anyone the past couple of years, but since US News de-emphasized acceptance rates, MU's ranking thankfully didn't decline and actually went up a point.   Look, I'm supportive of MU's diversity efforts and applaud their efforts to make higher education more accessible to first generation college students but they've prioritized this "mission" above all else to the point where MU seems more interested in being a social service organization than a university.  That's what irks me.  Again I think they should continue to do everything they're doing in that vein, but the extent to which they wear the "mission" on their sleeve is not only annoying but arguably disingenuous.  While shrouded in the veil of altruism, MU's end game is to receive Title V funds from the feds, which they'll be eligible to apply for if they achieve their goal of becoming a "Hispanic Serving Institution".   Again, nothing wrong with that and I'm not saying that's their sole motivation but just want to keep them honest.  As for Herman Cain's comments, it's not realistic for MU to follow the path he suggests and although I found much of what he said to be mean spirited and insensitive, his POV absolutely reflects the northeastern sensibility.  US News may have de-emphasized acceptance rates but students and their parents in Herman and my neck of the woods have not and aren't going to anytime soon.  MU's policy is repelling instead of encouraging exactly the types of students they claim to want to enroll more of from even applying and that's a shame.  I thought MU wanted to diversify the geographic footprint from which their undergraduate students come from but instead they're going out of their way to make themselves as unattractive as possible to prospective students from this region.  I know most of you don't care because you don't live here, but I do, and because people with attitudes like Herman's are pervasive here, recruiting kids to MU has become very difficult in recent years and an uphill battle that's frustrating as hell.  That was not the case 5 years ago.

Maybe it's people like you and Herman, with the "too high of an acceptance rate, so my precious kid ain't going there" attitude is not the student body that MU wants.  Personally, I'd be ok if there were no New Yorker/New Englander students at MU, from my experience, they are a bunch of d-bags and Mpretty boys (including my former Mpretty boy roommate, who I am still friends with today, mainly for the laugh factor at his Brahmin attitude.)

[warriorchick]

Maybe it's people like you and Herman, with the "too high of an acceptance rate, so my precious kid ain't going there" attitude is not the student body that MU wants.  Personally, I'd be ok if there were no New Yorker/New Englander students at MU, from my experience, they are a bunch of d-bags and Mpretty boys (including my former Mpretty boy roommate, who I am still friends with today, mainly for the laugh factor at his Brahmin attitude.)

This.

If "d-bags and entitled a-holes as a percentage of enrolled students" were a USNWR metric, all of those schools you think are so great wouldn't be faring so well.

[GGGG]

I've been as critical of MU's extremely unconventional enrollment strategy as anyone the past couple of years, but since US News de-emphasized acceptance rates, MU's ranking thankfully didn't decline and actually went up a point.   

Look, I'm supportive of MU's diversity efforts and applaud their efforts to make higher education more accessible to first generation college students but they've prioritized this "mission" above all else to the point where MU seems more interested in being a social service organization than a university.  That's what irks me. i

Just because they accept a more diverse student body doesn't make them a "social service organization."  And no university, including those on your precious east coast, merely look at a handful of objective criteria to determine who to enroll.  Diversity of all sorts is a virtue.  Employers want employees who can function in that environment, so Marquette is attempting to provide it.

And if that prevents people from your neck of the wood from going there, well that's fine.  There are plenty of places that would be better fits and plenty of students who want a Marquette experience.

[4everwarriors]

Marquette fills their niche well. Its not ND, Georgetown, or BC, but competes on even ground with Loyola, Creighton, Dayton, and the like.

[GGGG]

Marquette fills their niche well. Its not ND, Georgetown, or BC, but competes on even ground with Loyola, Creighton, Dayton, and the like.

Exactly.  That's what Marquette is.  And it wants to excel within that niche.  Not become something it isn't.

[vogue65]

I live part time in Italy, the country that invented the religion, Catholicism.

Italy practices homogenous grouping (HG), big time.

Catholic secondary education in America also practices homogenous grouping.

I love the Jesuits on many levels, but they practice HG big time.

Where are minority students grouped in Catholic secondary schools?

Oh, to bring this full circle, where does MU do the majority of its recruiting?

Answers:

1.  Minority students are mostly grouped in the lower groups.
2.  MU recruits mainly in Catholic secondary schools.

[Galway Eagle]

I live part time in Italy, the country that invented the religion, Catholicism.

Italy practices homogenous grouping (HG), big time.

Catholic secondary education in America also practices homogenous grouping.

I love the Jesuits on many levels, but they practice HG big time.

Where are minority students grouped in Catholic secondary schools?

Oh, to bring this full circle, where does MU do the majority of its recruiting?

Answers:

1.  Minority students are mostly grouped in the lower groups.
2.  MU recruits mainly in Catholic secondary schools.

Didn't Israel invent Catholicism?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Didn't Israel invent Catholicism?

Right. Italy just took it mainstream.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

ACT and SAT score compared to previous times is not really a good measure as those scores have been inflated, especially the SAT.  I don't remember my SAT score (I didn't go to an Ivy so it isn't on my resume to constantly remind me) but I've read that one who took the test more than 15 years ago should add 200 points to their score to get an equivalent score today.  And, of course, we know grade inflation is rampant today, especially at the stronger private schools.

According to this, there has only been a relatively small increase in SAT scores in the last 3-plus decades.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time