no homo (nh)

[Pakuni]

You are doing what you rail against, putting an entire gender under rule of suspicion.

So, kind of what you're doing to every woman who says she was assaulted?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You like to inject race in some of your posts, which isn't appropriate.

I'm sorry, I'll use your preferred label: Traditional

[MU82]

Uh...you are pretty much making his point.  If a black guy is accused, he often winds up being found guilty.

To ignore the racial aspect of these things is pretty foolhardy.

You said this before I could. Classic chicos!

[Dr. Blackheart]

I'd think even scarier was/is being a young woman around older men.

Misandristic and ageist. Abusers come in all ages and genders. 

[MU82]

This just in (literally):

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article219358005.html?#emlnl=Breaking_Newsletter&id=bWlrZW5hZGVsQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ=

This guy, the brother of Panthers TE Greg Olsen, found innocent of rape.

Yes! A rich white male actually prevails! Huzzah!

So rare. Women get everything ... and what they don't get, blacks and Latinos do.

Seriously, I haven't followed this case closely enough to have formed an opinion on the justness of this verdict, so I'll defer to the 12-person jury. If he didn't rape her, I'm glad he was found innocent, obviously.

[4everwarriors]

Innocent duzant meen he didn't due it. OJ was innocent two or rather "knot guilty," hey?

[Benny B]

This just in (literally):

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article219358005.html?#emlnl=Breaking_Newsletter&id=bWlrZW5hZGVsQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ=

This guy, the brother of Panthers TE Greg Olsen, found innocent of rape.

Yes! A rich white male actually prevails! Huzzah!

So rare. Women get everything ... and what they don't get, blacks and Latinos do.

Seriously, I haven't followed this case closely enough to have formed an opinion on the justness of this verdict, so I'll defer to the 12-person jury. If he didn't rape her, I'm glad he was found innocent, obviously.

So does that make UNC the "white" university and UNC-Asheville & UNC-Greenboro the "black" and "Latino" universities?

[MU82]

So does that make UNC the "white" university and UNC-Asheville & UNC-Greenboro the "black" and "Latino" universities?

Benny, I have no idea what this means.

[rocket surgeon]

Benny, I have no idea what this means.

So you really didn’t follow the case but “ rich white male prevails!” ? 

  Kevin Olsen barely made it out of college as a “decent” qb.  He obviously did not make it to the next level(nfl) that I’m aware of, and he’s a “rich white male”??  How much money does he have?  In my estimation, Kevin Olsen is a 20 something male with some serious issues that need help.  How, when or if he takes charge of his life to become a “rich white male” remains to be seen.  He sure in the heck didn’t help his potential nfl aspirations, if he had any here. 

 

  If this was supposed to be “teal” or “tongue in cheek” I missed the joke-probably better to stick with your day job of retired sports writer

 

[WarriorDad]

I'm sorry, I'll use your preferred label: Traditional

What does that even mean?

So, kind of what you're doing to every woman who says she was assaulted?

Absolutely not. I'm asking for evidence (witnesses, corroboration of some kind), not that you must believe a person no matter what, which is the current thinking by too many people.

Uh...you are pretty much making his point.  If a black guy is accused, he often winds up being found guilty.

To ignore the racial aspect of these things is pretty foolhardy.

How? I am the one pointing that very thing.  The examples I gave are of minorities found guilty by their schools, forced to leave, or in the case of Banks serve prison time for something they didn't do.  I agree entirely that minority men are even more at risk of fake claims of sexual assault and it is wrong.  How is that making his point when it is the same point I am making?  I specifically said "African Americans are wrongfully accused in this nation of many crimes, rape is no exception."

This just in (literally):


This guy, the brother of Panthers TE Greg Olsen, found innocent of rape.

Did you see the Charlotte news as they tried to interview the jurors.  Your claim of race that the white guy got off, take a look at the jurors as the three the reporter tried to talk to were all African American.  I don't know the makeup of the entire jury, but why did you inject race again?  Was your implication that a white jury got a white accused off?

Here is the video from the Charlotte tv station   https://www.wcnc.com/video/news/local/jury-finds-ex-uncc-quarterback-kevin-olsen-not-guilty-on-all-rape-charges/275-8270524

[WarriorDad]

What's your solution, Chicos? Secret tribunals? A ban on victims from seeking redress unless the assault is captured on video?
Do you feel the same for accused murderers, thieves and batterers, or just guys accused of rape?
You're doing a fine job of complaining about the system, but offering zero ideas on how it can be improved.

Edit ...
Just to dive deeper into your thinking here, we know from numerous studies that the number of false allegations is tiny in comparison not only to valid accusations, but also to assaults that go unreported.
What you are arguing here is that the system needs to do more to protect guys from those rare false accusations, rather than do a better job of protecting victims and making sure perpetrators are appropriate;y punished, or at least removed from campus.
So, ultimately it seems you believe that it's far worse to be wrongly accused of rape - even in secret - than it is to actually be raped and then see your rapist stroll around on campus having gone entirely unpunished.
That's pretty messed up.

Not a single person here is claiming that false allegations are acceptable or should go unpunished. But it says a lot that we have a system in which a vast  majority of assaults go either unreported or unpunished, but your sympathy lies with the guys who might have to leave campus because of an accusation.

Numerous studies that show anywhere from 2% to 17%.  I don't believe 17% is tiny.  I don't believe 8% is tiny. When your life is on the line, I don't think 0.0000001% is tiny.  It is also true that cases are not reported, this is equally troubling. Not less troubling.

I do not believe it is worse to be accused of rape falsely than to actually be raped, where did I say this?  But if a rape didn't occur, and one is charged with that crime then it does become worse because one is accused of a crime they did not commit.  As a father of both genders, I see the issue through both sides.  The women in my family have provided great counsel to the men to remind them to treat women with respect, no is no, be careful of consent and what it means and where it stops.  They have also said that some women can be vicious and lie, be careful.  Weaponization is done by some.

Are you not familiar with the wise and old adage that it is better that 100 guilty people walk free than one innocent person found guilty?

This is an enormously difficult topic.  I do not believe all women (or men) and reject the premise that one has to #believewomen only because they are women.  That is against common sense, it is against legal norms that have been part of western civilization for 100's of years, and it defies humanity and the inherent evil that exists in all of us.  I believe honest people (women or men), and I want to believe all women, but you don't get that because of your gender.  Let me give you an example from the past 10 days where my BS meter goes off.  In the news, we have all seen it.  An accuser has many memory gaps, which may be true and I give her the benefit of the doubt. However, when one scrubs their entire social media history prior to going public, that is a tell.  That is an attempt to remove motive.  When that same person makes over $1M from go fund me accounts in 5 days and her attorneys are working pro bono, my mind would be a lot more at ease if that person said and proved that 100% of that is going to charity to avoid it looking like they were paid off for a political setup.

The Atlantic has a poignant article about this very thing yesterday, written by a woman who I am sure will take enormous heat for it. 

Solutions for college?  The accused should have right to counsel.  The accused should be able to face his or her accuser directly. 

[MUBurrow]

The accused should be able to face his or her accuser directly.

Why?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Absolutely not. I'm asking for evidence (witnesses, corroboration of some kind), not that you must believe a person no matter what, which is the current thinking by too many people.

Not a single person means this to apply to police or campus conduct staff. Burden of proof is on the university and just the account of a complainant would be enough to find someone responsible for sexual assault.

Are you not familiar with the wise and old adage that it is better that 100 guilty people walk free than one innocent person found guilty?

This is true of the criminal system. Not the university one. The criminal system is a punitive one. The university system is an educational one. The mandate of universities is to protect the academic environment and the students within it.

Solutions for college?  The accused should have right to counsel.  The accused should be able to face his or her accuser directly. 

Students are required to have access to counsel. This is a made up argument.

Accused are entitled to any information given by their accuser and can address it directly. Why is it so important that they need directly face them?

[Jay Bee]

Students are required to have access to counsel. This is a made up argument.

#FakeNews
#Lies

You’re fibbin

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

#FakeNews
#Lies

You’re fibbin

You're right. The Trump administration rescinded the guidelines that required universities grant students access to an adviser of their choice, including attorneys. So technically, a university doesn't have to allow a student access to counsel at this moment.

Now assuming that a university is sticking to the Obama era guidelines until new guidelines are issued (which is what most are doing), a student must be allowed to have an attorney (or other adviser of their choice) present to advise them during the conduct process.

As you often remind people with NCAA rules, go actually read the rules before trying to speak on them. Media often get things wrong.

[Jay Bee]

You're right. The Trump administration rescinded the guidelines that required universities grant students access to an adviser of their choice, including attorneys. So technically, a university doesn't have to allow a student access to counsel at this moment.

Now assuming that a university is sticking to the Obama era guidelines until new guidelines are issued (which is what most are doing), a student must be allowed to have an attorney (or other adviser of their choice) present to advise them during the conduct process.

As you often remind people with NCAA rules, go actually read the rules before trying to speak on them. Media often get things wrong.

Say what?  I corrected you and you agreed with my correction. Why are you telling me to “read the rules”?

You were wrong and admitted it. It’ll be OK!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Say what?  I corrected you and you agreed with my correction. Why are you telling me to “read the rules”?

You were wrong and admitted it. It’ll be OK!

Yes. I'm totally sure that's what you meant.

You do still need to read the rules. Just because there is no overarching guidance, doesn't mean that universities don't have rules that require that students have access to attorneys....which 99% of schools have. Other than the 4 universities not governed by Title IX (completely donation funded, don't accept fafsa) I am personally not aware of any university that doesn't have these rules. Could be a few universities rescinded them after DeVos rescinded the guidance but I would guess the number is in the single digits.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Also, this question with attorneys is yet another example of how students accused of sexual assault enjoy more due process than students accused of any other violation. Students accused of cheating, alcohol, physical assault, theft, etc aren't allowed to have attorneys as advisers. Yet, no outrage there.

[#UnleashSean]

@Tamu

The way I understand it is that an accusation is enough to get the accused suspended, expelled, or forced schedule change to interrupt there school year. No proof or investigation is necessary. Is this correct?

[Jay Bee]

Yes. I'm totally sure that's what you meant.

You do still need to read the rules. Just because there is no overarching guidance, doesn't mean that universities don't have rules that require that students have access to attorneys....which 99% of schools have. Other than the 4 universities not governed by Title IX (completely donation funded, don't accept fafsa) I am personally not aware of any university that doesn't have these rules. Could be a few universities rescinded them after DeVos rescinded the guidance but I would guess the number is in the single digits.

Many of the “99%” (lol) horribly restrict what the attorneys can and can’t do. Your claim was wrong and an affront to humanity!!!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

@Tamu

The way I understand it is that an accusation is enough to get the accused suspended, expelled, or forced schedule change to interrupt there school year. No proof or investigation is necessary. Is this correct?

Suspended: Wildly incorrect
Expelled: Wildly incorrect
Forced Schedule Change: Correct but rare

It is standard procedure for a "no contact order" to be placed between the accused and accuser. Think of it as a restraining order. If the accused and accuser share a class or live in the same dorm then one of the two will need to be moved. Universities are required to move the student into another section of the class and are supposed to move the student who it will have the least impact on. If they have to move out of a dorm, it is almost always the accused that has to move temporarily. This may seem harsh, but keep in mind that restraining orders in the legal process require minimal evidence and investigation and it is almost always the accused that is forced to move.

Suspension/Expulsion requires investigation, a conduct panel, and opportunity for appeal. Burden of proof rests with the university. As I mentioned earlier, most students found responsible for sexual assault are not expelled, that is usually reserved for students who are considered to be true predators who are likely to reoffend. Suspension is the most common sanction. Probation is more common than expulsion.

Again, all of this is assuming that the university is still following the Obama era guidelines. There are currently no guidelines as DeVos rescinded all of them with no replacements.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

What does that even mean?

Gosh, Chicos, who could ever possibly know?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Many of the “99%” (lol) horribly restrict what the attorneys can and can’t do. Your claim was wrong and an affront to humanity!!!!

My claim was not wrong. I said students have access to counsel. Which is 100% true. Attorneys cannot speak for the student. They however can tell them exactly what to say and have the student parrot it word for word. They can even write them a script and have them read from it. They can even do this when answering questions. Not even the legal system allows that! I know its a lot to ask, to actually have students use their voice in a conduct panels.

[Jay Bee]

My claim was not wrong. I said students have access to counsel. Which is 100% true. Attorneys cannot speak for the student. They however can tell them exactly what to say and have the student parrot it word for word. They can even write them a script and have them read from it. They can even do this when answering questions. Not even the legal system allows that! I know its a lot to ask, to actually have students use their voice in a conduct panels.

Lies!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Lies!

Sigh.

Do I really need to put *assuming the school is still following the obama era guidelines until new guidelines are issued* in every post? Can we just assume that's implied moving forward?