Pennsylvania Grand Jury report on abuse

[mu03eng]

I'm curious if you went to a catholic grade or high school. I agree that almost never hear about sex in the services but I felt like I was reminded daily in catholic school that premarital/safe/gay/oral/anal sex were all sins. It was regularly worked into religion, social studies, and health classes. We also had to take a class called "Values" freshman year where it was pretty well ingrained into us. All the following years we were required to take seminar classes that had varying levels of focus on the topic.

Even at Marquette there are still some student rules that try to enforce these sexual standards on adults. No guests of the opposite sex after certain hours in the dorms. I thought I remember some policies about "unconventional sex" being forbidden but I might be misremembering.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is that the church has all these rules surrounding sex but DOESN'T talk about the why at services. "Because its a sin" is only a convincing answer for so long.

Plus there are even rules about it within the confines of a marriage. My mind was boggled the first time I had engaged friends tell me about their "marriage course" that they had to complete to be married in a Catholic church.

[MU82]

Nothing to do with sex, but interesting nonetheless ...

A local high school football team's QB died tragically a couple weeks ago. They opened the season last Friday and won, easily beating their inferior opponent. The new QB had a big day and the team played well overall.

Afterward, the coach said:

"This just shows how special these kids are. They inspired an entire community. Those kids have been amazing. We wanted to come out and prove to people that God is real."

Well, I've had my doubts all these years, but now I've changed my mind!

[jutaw22mu]

So 5/6 of her suggestions at the end are actually decent advice (the last one she goes off the deep end a little bit) but her reasoning leading up to it is all terrible. The molestation in the church is an intentional plot by the LGBTQ community to destroy the church? I would love to discuss scripture with her some time, she clearly hasn't spent much time reading it. I hope she finds a way to get rid of all the hate in her heart.

The molestation and sexual abuse is not a plot by the LGBTQ community to destroy the church.  This is the work of the devil. Anyone familiar with Pope Leo's 100 year prophecy?

[muwarrior69]

Nothing to do with sex, but interesting nonetheless ...

A local high school football team's QB died tragically a couple weeks ago. They opened the season last Friday and won, easily beating their inferior opponent. The new QB had a big day and the team played well overall.

Afterward, the coach said:

"This just shows how special these kids are. They inspired an entire community. Those kids have been amazing. We wanted to come out and prove to people that God is real."

Well, I've had my doubts all these years, but now I've changed my mind!

Hallelujah!

[MU82]

Yeah, I got some crap for asking people to "prove" stuff in other threads.

So it's nice to see that this incredible thing now has been proven beyond all doubt!

[muwarrior69]

Yeah, I got some crap for asking people to "prove" stuff in other threads.

So it's nice to see that this incredible thing now has been proven beyond all doubt!

As a life long Yankee fan I never had any doubts.

[Benny B]

I'm speaking from a legacy standpoint. Religions generally, and the Catholic Church specifically used piety as a weapon to control the masses (or that was the theory anyway) including by putting structure around sex. By making sex taboo, so to speak, it also helped fill church coffers (things like purgatory, etc). We're talking middle ages stuff and that legacy has not really been revisited.

I wonder just how much of that is actually true and how much of it Dan Brown simply made up.

[Pakuni]

I'm curious if you went to a catholic grade or high school. I agree that almost never hear about sex in the services but I felt like I was reminded daily in catholic school that premarital/safe/gay/oral/anal sex were all sins. It was regularly worked into religion, social studies, and health classes. We also had to take a class called "Values" freshman year where it was pretty well ingrained into us. All the following years we were required to take seminar classes that had varying levels of focus on the topic.

Even at Marquette there are still some student rules that try to enforce these sexual standards on adults. No guests of the opposite sex after certain hours in the dorms. I thought I remember some policies about "unconventional sex" being forbidden but I might be misremembering.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is that the church has all these rules surrounding sex but DOESN'T talk about the why at services. "Because its a sin" is only a convincing answer for so long.

I went to Catholic grade school and high school. As I said, I don't recall sexuality being brought up at all outside of health classes - and not in a shaming way that I can recall - and some theology lessons on Aquinas and natural law. I, fortunately, never had to take a class on "values" or anything of that nature.
I not once had the impression that the people who taught me or the priests were "obsessed" with sex. It was more like the topic was generally ignored. If they were obsessed about anything, it was the uniform code and the need for absolute silence in the library.

[MU82]

I went to public school ... and they told us sex was great!

They encouraged all of us to have sex as early in life as possible and as often as possible. Anal, oral, gay, straight, safe, dangerous, standing on our heads, while singing God Bless America ... and even sometimes all of that simultaneously!!

Sometimes, instead of recess, we'd have sex-cess ... and y'all can just imagine what was going on then!

All you Catholics who didn't go to public school missed out bigly!

[Benny B]

I went to Catholic grade school and high school. As I said, I don't recall sexuality being brought up at all outside of health classes - and not in a shaming way that I can recall - and some theology lessons on Aquinas and natural law. I, fortunately, never had to take a class on "values" or anything of that nature.
I not once had the impression that the people who taught me or the priests were "obsessed" with sex. It was more like the topic was generally ignored. If they were obsessed about anything, it was the uniform code and the need for absolute silence in the library.

Apart from the theology on Aquinas and natural law, this was exactly my experience as well.  Especially the dress code part.  God help you if your mom didn't wash your trousers in Woolite or Tide with ColorGuard^tm.

[Pakuni]

Plus there are even rules about it within the confines of a marriage. My mind was boggled the first time I had engaged friends tell me about their "marriage course" that they had to complete to be married in a Catholic church.

It's called PreCana and it's actually pretty reasonable, unless you're somehow so insecure in your own beliefs that you're offended by spending an afternoon hearing what the church teaches. In which case, why do you want to get married in a Catholic church anyways? Plenty of banquet halls, country clubs, courthouses and Unitarian chapels out there, you know?

My PreCana (taught by, I kid you not, former Chicago Bear Maury Buford and his wife) was as much about how to deal with finances, the decision of whether and when to have kids, how to resolve conflicts, etc., as it was about Catholic dogma.
What's so boggling, exactly, about the church wanting to give a couple a little premarital counseling and make then more prepared for the journey ahead, before sanctioning their marriage?

[muwarrior69]

Here is Gay man's perspective.

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/08/why-men-like-me-should-not-be-priests

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here is Gay man's perspective.

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/08/why-men-like-me-should-not-be-priests

Sigh... Pedophiles aren't attracted to one gender or another,  they are attracted to childlike figures, usually hairlessness. The reason more boys are affected than girls is because priests have greater access to them and they are easily to manipulate because of the stigma.

The LGBTQ community has nothing to do with pedophilia or what's happening in the church. Anyone trying to connect the two is trying to demonize LGBTQ individuals.

I do agree with his sentiment that gay men should not be priests but not for his reasoning. I don't agree with them and I think they should revisit this teaching,  but the Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Until that changes,  I think it is disrespectful of the church to have a gay man ordained. I hope they relook at the scripture and embrace a more loving and accepting policy but I don't think that will happen in my lifetime.

[jutaw22mu]

It's called PreCana and it's actually pretty reasonable, unless you're somehow so insecure in your own beliefs that you're offended by spending an afternoon hearing what the church teaches. In which case, why do you want to get married in a Catholic church anyways? Plenty of banquet halls, country clubs, courthouses and Unitarian chapels out there, you know?

My PreCana (taught by, I kid you not, former Chicago Bear Maury Buford and his wife) was as much about how to deal with finances, the decision of whether and when to have kids, how to resolve conflicts, etc., as it was about Catholic dogma.
What's so boggling, exactly, about the church wanting to give a couple a little premarital counseling and make then more prepared for the journey ahead, before sanctioning their marriage?

Exactly

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I wonder just how much of that is actually true and how much of it Dan Brown simply made up.

You'd be surprised what he did not make up.
There really is a Priory of Sion.

[mu03eng]

It's called PreCana and it's actually pretty reasonable, unless you're somehow so insecure in your own beliefs that you're offended by spending an afternoon hearing what the church teaches. In which case, why do you want to get married in a Catholic church anyways? Plenty of banquet halls, country clubs, courthouses and Unitarian chapels out there, you know?

My PreCana (taught by, I kid you not, former Chicago Bear Maury Buford and his wife) was as much about how to deal with finances, the decision of whether and when to have kids, how to resolve conflicts, etc., as it was about Catholic dogma.
What's so boggling, exactly, about the church wanting to give a couple a little premarital counseling and make then more prepared for the journey ahead, before sanctioning their marriage?

You misunderstand my "objection", it is certainly not against the idea of pre-marriage counseling, which we got through our church, and at a minimum some sort of secular guidance makes sense pre-marriage. It's only within the confines of the "sex question" that I don't get it.

My boggingly was to the sex-based guidance our various friends have received through the PreCana, things like sex is only for the purpose of having kids, no self-love, natural birth control, etc. I get that they are the churches position but to openly advocate them seems silly. They are certainly not mainstream or modern views on sexuality.

[muwarrior69]

Sigh... Pedophiles aren't attracted to one gender or another,  they are attracted to childlike figures, usually hairlessness. The reason more boys are affected than girls is because priests have greater access to them and they are easily to manipulate because of the stigma.

The LGBTQ community has nothing to do with pedophilia or what's happening in the church. Anyone trying to connect the two is trying to demonize LGBTQ individuals

He was not demonizing the LGBTQ community. All I got from the article is that it would be very difficult for gay men to remain faithful to their vow of celibacy in a community of single men and the Church would be better off if they refrained from recruiting any men like him in his opinion. The article did not just focus on pedophilia but also the problem of gay sex in the seminaries. That was the main complaint against Cardinal McCarrick.

Your point on pedophiles is well taken.

[Pakuni]

You misunderstand my "objection", it is certainly not against the idea of pre-marriage counseling, which we got through our church, and at a minimum some sort of secular guidance makes sense pre-marriage. It's only within the confines of the "sex question" that I don't get it.

My boggingly was to the sex-based guidance our various friends have received through the PreCana, things like sex is only for the purpose of having kids, no self-love, natural birth control, etc. I get that they are the churches position but to openly advocate them seems silly. They are certainly not mainstream or modern views on sexuality.

Sorry if I misunderstood.
But I'm very surprised to learn that someone was taught that sex is only for reproduction, as that's not actually Catholic teaching. The church does oppose non-natural birth control (i.e. the pill, condoms), but it does not teach that every instance must be for the purpose of reproduction or that "natural family planning" is wrong. If it did, post-menopausal women would be barred from having sex. They're not.

Why would a church openly advocating its beliefs be silly? I mean, you don't have to agree with their beliefs. You can find their beliefs silly (I myself find many to be silly). But what's silly about the church openly advocating its beliefs to people wanting to be married in the church?
The silly thing in your example is people wanting to hold their wedding in the church, and then being offended/bothered/surprised when the church wants them to learn church teachings about marriage.
"Hey we want to use your pretty building, but don't make us learn what you're all about."

[Lennys Tap]

Sigh... Pedophiles aren't attracted to one gender or another,  they are attracted to childlike figures, usually hairlessness. The reason more boys are affected than girls is because priests have greater access to them and they are easily to manipulate because of the stigma.

This is only from a google search, but the studies I saw sighted disagreed - pedophiles are indeed usually gender specific in their attractions. In the general population heterosexual preference was approximately 20:1. Among pedophiles, 11:1. Girls are molested twice as often as boys, but the number would be higher if pedophiles (almost always men) had more access to girls.

[Jockey]

Sorry if I misunderstood.
But I'm very surprised to learn that someone was taught that sex is only for reproduction, as that's not actually Catholic teaching. The church does oppose non-natural birth control (i.e. the pill, condoms), but it does not teach that every instance must be for the purpose of reproduction or that "natural family planning" is wrong. If it did, post-menopausal women would be barred from having sex. They're not.

Why would a church openly advocating its beliefs be silly? I mean, you don't have to agree with their beliefs. You can find their beliefs silly (I myself find many to be silly). But what's silly about the church openly advocating its beliefs to people wanting to be married in the church?
The silly thing in your example is people wanting to hold their wedding in the church, and then being offended/bothered/surprised when the church wants them to learn church teachings about marriage.
"Hey we want to use your pretty building, but don't make us learn what you're all about."

I'd like to ask a question to you and other Catholics. I have been very harsh on the Catholic Church and its leaders over the sex scandal. I know I would have quit the Church immediately when I found out the allegations were true.

However, I have never questioned the Church's beliefs or the beliefs of Catholics, in general. Only the institution.


So, my question is, why do you continue to support a corrupt organization? I was raised in an Evangelical Church, but quit cold turkey over their response to the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. My religious beliefs didn't change much, but as I see what the churches are doing now, I feel even better about the decision.


If my question is out of bounds, don't be shy about letting me know.

[warriorchick]

I'd like to ask a question to you and other Catholics. I have been very harsh on the Catholic Church and its leaders over the sex scandal. I know I would have quit the Church immediately when I found out the allegations were true.

However, I have never questioned the Church's beliefs or the beliefs of Catholics, in general. Only the institution.


So, my question is, why do you continue to support a corrupt organization? I was raised in an Evangelical Church, but quit cold turkey over their response to the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. My religious beliefs didn't change much, but as I see what the churches are doing now, I feel even better about the decision.


If my question is out of bounds, don't be shy about letting me know.

I didn't leave the Church.  It left me.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is only from a google search, but the studies I saw sighted disagreed - pedophiles are indeed usually gender specific in their attractions. In the general population heterosexual preference was approximately 20:1. Among pedophiles, 11:1. Girls are molested twice as often as boys, but the number would be higher if pedophiles (almost always men) had more access to girls.

As I explained earlier in the thread, there is a difference between pedophiles and predators who target young children. Pedophiles are attracted to childlike body types, specifically hairlessness. They might have a gender preference but their sexual orientation is to children. They are not homo or heterosexuals. They are not attracted to adults of the same gender of their preference in children.

Predators who target young children are a separate category. They get off on power, control and domination of their victims. They target children because they happen to be the easiest targets. These are homo and heterosexuals, the majority being heterosexuals.

You are correct that more girls are the victims of child abuse in general (though it's generally believed that crimes against boys are much more under-reported) I was speaking about the Catholic Church scandal specifically, though honestly I don't know that's true. Whenever I read about the church sex scandal it seems like the focus is on male victims but I haven't actually seen numbers or data to back that up. So mea culpa on that one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'd like to ask a question to you and other Catholics. I have been very harsh on the Catholic Church and its leaders over the sex scandal. I know I would have quit the Church immediately when I found out the allegations were true.

However, I have never questioned the Church's beliefs or the beliefs of Catholics, in general. Only the institution.


So, my question is, why do you continue to support a corrupt organization? I was raised in an Evangelical Church, but quit cold turkey over their response to the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. My religious beliefs didn't change much, but as I see what the churches are doing now, I feel even better about the decision.


If my question is out of bounds, don't be shy about letting me know.

You can choose to leave, choose to conform, or choose to fight to make it better. I think the Catholic Church is worth fighting to make better. However, everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. I have no judgement for those who choose to leave or conform. I no longer attend Catholic services, I just can't get what I need spiritually at this point in my life there. But I do still consider myself Catholic and stay involved in a catholic based service organization.

[Jockey]

You can choose to leave, choose to conform, or choose to fight to make it better. I think the Catholic Church is worth fighting to make better. However, everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. I have no judgement for those who choose to leave or conform. I no longer attend Catholic services, I just can't get what I need spiritually at this point in my life there. But I do still consider myself Catholic and stay involved in a catholic based service organization.

Thank you, TAMU. You have given me something to ponder with your answer.

[mu03eng]

Sorry if I misunderstood.
But I'm very surprised to learn that someone was taught that sex is only for reproduction, as that's not actually Catholic teaching. The church does oppose non-natural birth control (i.e. the pill, condoms), but it does not teach that every instance must be for the purpose of reproduction or that "natural family planning" is wrong. If it did, post-menopausal women would be barred from having sex. They're not.

Why would a church openly advocating its beliefs be silly? I mean, you don't have to agree with their beliefs. You can find their beliefs silly (I myself find many to be silly). But what's silly about the church openly advocating its beliefs to people wanting to be married in the church?
The silly thing in your example is people wanting to hold their wedding in the church, and then being offended/bothered/surprised when the church wants them to learn church teachings about marriage.
"Hey we want to use your pretty building, but don't make us learn what you're all about."

You are right, they absolutely can share their beliefs and also right that I think in this area their beliefs are silly. One of the stories I was told about a couple who got up during this weekend to talk about the rhythm method and advocate for it, the couple had five kids but the wife had some form of cancer recently (I believe breast cancer but don't quote me) but was in remission. However if she got pregnant again the cancer would more than likely come back and yet they were still using the rhythm method. That is just completely bonkers in my mind. You add in things like the inventor of the birth control pill created it in such a way as intended to be a "natural" form of birth control and the Vatican altered it's definition of natural to mean no one can intercede in the physical act in anyway is also bonkers in my mind.

At the end of the day, I still struggle to understand how an organization (not just just a religion) has a fair number of rules/beliefs most people in the organization don't believe or adhere to AND it has an on-going scandal of the nature the Catholic church does and the members just keep chugging along. I'm not judging it, I respect everyone's faith, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to ME. I also have no other connection to the Catholic faith then having attended a few masses as a kid because my mom wanted to me experience different religions and having attended MU....so I'm an outside to it and I get that.