De ja vu - was arguing with Auburn fans on how stupid it would be to fire pearl

[StillAWarrior]

Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.

This is kind of where I stand on the issue.  Marquette should make the tournament almost every year.  I'm not sure where I would draw the line for the occasional "one-off" but I'd say that they should be making the tournament 8 or 9 years out of 10.  More than that, they should be playing in the second weekend in half of those (at least).  And if they can do that, I figure they'd make EE and FF a couple times a decade.

I would love to see MU win a championship, and I really hope it happens.  But, if they could reach what I've described above, I would be very happy.  I do agree that winning the tournament -- or even going to the FF -- is a bit of a "crap shoot" as some have said.  But, for a program of Marquette's caliber, winning on the opening weekend of the tournament should be pretty consistent.

Regarding our current situation, I feel like Wojo is "on the clock" and I want to see him getting to this level.  Over the past three seasons, he's got 2 NCAA appearances and 1 season that I hope was a "one-off."  They need to make it out of the opening round next year, and I'd really like to see them playing on the second weekend.

[StillAWarrior]

This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.

Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.

I agree with you almost completely.  However, I kind of think that being "back up and running within a year or two" is kind of the definition of a rebuild.  At least a minor rebuild.  Particularly when, on paper, next year looks quite strong.

I don't love Wojo.  My heart would not be broken if he chose to leave.  But I also don't happen to think he should be fired.  That said, I have pretty high expectations for next season.

[muguru]

This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.

Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.

Augie totally nailed it, and that's what so many are afraid of I think....that if Wojo left, there would be a total rebuild..which is total BS...it all depends on the Coach they brought in...what they also fail to realize is that even IF some players did transfer out...if you were getting a current sitting Head Coach, there very well could be transfers IN as well(players that said Coach recruited to his previous school), and in that instance, of course depending on who left/ and who transferred in, you could very well end up with better players then the one's that left. That was another problem hiring Wojo who had no Head Coaching experience, there were no players transferring in from the school he was a Head Coach for previously. That's a big reason why MU started with a cupboard so bare when Wojo was hired, they didn't hire a current sitting Head Coach which usually yields players coming with said Coach.

[muguru]

I agree with you almost completely.  However, I kind of think that being "back up and running within a year or two" is kind of the definition of a rebuild.  At least a minor rebuild.  Particularly when, on paper, next year looks quite strong.

I don't love Wojo.  My heart would not be broken if he chose to leave.  But I also don't happen to think he should be fired.  That said, I have pretty high expectations for next season.

Okay but...if you are using the hypothetical that Wojo left/was fired now that it would affect next year drastically, would it?? Again, I'd say it would have A LOT to do with who they hire. Look at Alabama...they had like 4 key players enter their name into the transfer portal, and that was before Oats was announced. One has already said now that he will be back, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two more followed his lead.

Second...again consider...depending on who the Coach is...as long as he was hired away from somewhere where he was a current Head Coach, there would likely be transfers IN to MU, in which case, depending on who left, you could end up with a better player anyway.

Finally, let's use your scenario...who transfers?? For my money...Sam wouldn't(he'd be a Senior, wouldn't make any sense), the same goes for Markus(unless he went pro, which if he decided to, he'd likely do regardless of who the Coach was), and if Sam didn't go, Joey wouldn't either. If you kept those 3...that's a hell of a way to start...Id argue anyone else could be replaced with a transfer of equal or greater talent. I don't see where in that scenario MU would be "rebuilding" at all.

[StillAWarrior]

Okay but...if you are using the hypothetical that Wojo left/was fired now that it would affect next year drastically, would it?? Again, I'd say it would have A LOT to do with who they hire. Look at Alabama...they had like 4 key players enter their name into the transfer portal, and that was before Oats was announced. One has already said now that he will be back, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two more followed his lead.

Second...again consider...depending on who the Coach is...as long as he was hired away from somewhere where he was a current Head Coach, there would likely be transfers IN to MU, in which case, depending on who left, you could end up with a better player anyway.

Finally, let's use your scenario...who transfers?? For my money...Sam wouldn't(he'd be a Senior, wouldn't make any sense), the same goes for Markus(unless he went pro, which if he decided to, he'd likely do regardless of who the Coach was), and if Sam didn't go, Joey wouldn't either. If you kept those 3...that's a hell of a way to start...Id argue anyone else could be replaced with a transfer of equal or greater talent. I don't see where in that scenario MU would be "rebuilding" at all.

I don't disagree.  I have not proclaimed that there would be doom and gloom next year if Wojo left.  That said, I honestly don't know who would leave.  You're assuming that there would be people transferring in (who couldn't play next year, btw) to follow the new coach.  Maybe true.  Maybe not.  Also maybe true that there would be people transferring out to follow Wojo.  Also, maybe not.

The reason I think MU shouldn't fire Wojo is that I think overall the team had a pretty good year (better than I expected in some respects) with a horrific ending and I think the program is heading in the right direction.  As I mentioned in another post, the way I'm looking at it is that we're currently 2 of 3 getting into the NCAA with a "one-off" last season.  As long as the team lives up to what I would expect (i.e., tournament almost every year and second weekend (at least) at least half of those times), I'm good.

[El Duderino]

This is kind of where I stand on the issue.  Marquette should make the tournament almost every year.  I'm not sure where I would draw the line for the occasional "one-off" but I'd say that they should be making the tournament 8 or 9 years out of 10.  More than that, they should be playing in the second weekend in half of those (at least).  And if they can do that, I figure they'd make EE and FF a couple times a decade.

What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?

[StillAWarrior]

What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?

Mostly, my hopes and dreams, honestly.  Wishful thinking.

That said, Marquette invests very heavily in basketball.  If they're going to invest as much as they do, I think they should be chasing results somewhere in that range.  If they have a coach that isn't getting them there, they should try again.  I think that if MU isn't going to "expect" that level of performance from its basketball program, they're wasting a hell of a lot of money.

[muguru]

What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?

Gonzaga does it, Wisconsin has done it(save for last year)...Cincinnati does it...I'm talking about making the tourney every year...is MU not on those program's level(or better)?? if not, there are MAJOR MAJOR issues.

[brewcity77]

Augie totally nailed it, and that's what so many are afraid of I think....that if Wojo left, there would be a total rebuild..which is total BS...it all depends on the Coach they brought in...what they also fail to realize is that even IF some players did transfer out...if you were getting a current sitting Head Coach, there very well could be transfers IN as well(players that said Coach recruited to his previous school), and in that instance, of course depending on who left/ and who transferred in, you could very well end up with better players then the one's that left. That was another problem hiring Wojo who had no Head Coaching experience, there were no players transferring in from the school he was a Head Coach for previously. That's a big reason why MU started with a cupboard so bare when Wojo was hired, they didn't hire a current sitting Head Coach which usually yields players coming with said Coach.

At the same time, this is backup quarterback syndrome. You are assuming the new guy will do better at retaining Wojo's guys than Wojo did at building a base after Buzz. Maybe that happens, but maybe Markus goes pro, Ed & Sacar grad transfer, Theo & Jamal take the traditional transfer route, & we're left waiting a year to find out if Joey declares for the draft when Sam graduates.

The safe assumption when a coach leaves is that his players leave with him for two reasons. First, as we saw with Wojo, the majority of guys did that (even many that initially committed to staying). Second, more often than not the new coach is going to want his own guys anyway. Maybe they'll retain and win with some of the old guard, but they will target freshmen & transfers that fit their style.

The only reason I don't want Wojo to go at this point is because I think we saw enough in the first three months of this year to indicate he might be able to succeed long term. I'd like to see him get another crack with this roster and a more full complement of guards to see if he can translate what were three months of incredibly successful results to a full season of the same. If he left, I'd be fine with that, but I don't think we're at the forcing him out point yet.

[esotericmindguy]

I'd like to think Marquette has higher standards than hiring someone of Bruce Pearl's character.
If you wish to be a win-at-all-costs type, that's your choice. But please understand that Marquette's board of trustees does not share your vision, and likely never will. If that's terribly upsetting to you, it could be time to consider why you choose to be a Marquette fan.

Really? What did pearl do, have a BBQ with some high school kids? Is that worse than what happened under buzz? He wasn’t dismissed. And fans can act like Buzz was pushed out, but no way Marquette was getting rid of him. Besides, talking auburn fans off the edge had everything to do with being 45-54 after 3 seasons. I’d be more wiling to stick with a coach that went 145-61 at Tennessee than someone who assisted Coach K. That’s what I was saying. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see Wojo being successful.

[muguru]

At the same time, this is backup quarterback syndrome. You are assuming the new guy will do better at retaining Wojo's guys than Wojo did at building a base after Buzz. Maybe that happens, but maybe Markus goes pro, Ed & Sacar grad transfer, Theo & Jamal take the traditional transfer route, & we're left waiting a year to find out if Joey declares for the draft when Sam graduates.

The safe assumption when a coach leaves is that his players leave with him for two reasons. First, as we saw with Wojo, the majority of guys did that (even many that initially committed to staying). Second, more often than not the new coach is going to want his own guys anyway. Maybe they'll retain and win with some of the old guard, but they will target freshmen & transfers that fit their style.

The only reason I don't want Wojo to go at this point is because I think we saw enough in the first three months of this year to indicate he might be able to succeed long term. I'd like to see him get another crack with this roster and a more full complement of guards to see if he can translate what were three months of incredibly successful results to a full season of the same. If he left, I'd be fine with that, but I don't think we're at the forcing him out point yet.

But you also have to agree Brew that the new guy COULD very easily bring players with him that were committed to him at his old school..that's a HUGE benefit of hiring a sitting coach. I will give an EXAMPLE(and people it is ONLY an example)...Let's say MU is looking for a new Coach and they decide to hire Bryce Drew(again, ONLY an example, not someone I want), and along with Bryce comes Darius Garland(again JUST an example) are we then really going to fret over a Jamal Cain and Sacar Anim transfer?? I sure as hell wouldn't.

In a lot of instances it's possible under these scenarios, you gain better players then you are losing...It's a lot like trading in pro sports, or signing someone in Free agency. Under this cenario, why should there be a step back?? If you are getting a better player or two(with the Coach), that you are losing??

[brewcity77]

But you also have to agree Brew that the new guy COULD very easily bring players with him that were committed to him at his old school..that's a HUGE benefit of hiring a sitting coach. I will give an EXAMPLE(and people it is ONLY an example)...Let's say MU is looking for a new Coach and they decide to hire Bryce Drew(again, ONLY an example, not someone I want), and along with Bryce comes Darius Garland(again JUST an example) are we then really going to fret over a Jamal Cain and Sacar Anim transfer?? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Darius Garland is probably going to the NBA. Certainly wouldn't expect him to follow Drew here.

Hypothetically, yes, we could hire a coach that does what Buzz did for Va Tech. But of his lauded 2014 recruiting class, he wasn't able to bring Cohen, he lost out on Shayok (as did we), and only brought Hill & Pierce to Va Tech. The only player of that class with meaningful value in Va Tech's future success was Hill.

Honestly, I don't care a lot about what players a coach brings with him. I don't care if they bring any players with them. I'm concerned with long-term results. I care more about what happens 10-15 years from now than I do what happens 0-5 years from now because all I really care about is a National Championship, and I don't think any new coach is going to come in and get one of those in the next 5 years. I want someone who can coach & recruit. And I want someone that will build a culture of winning, because having the kind of program that is a staple in the NCAA Tournament, gets to the occasional Final Four, & can be a viable National Championship contender takes a strong culture & years and years (and years and years and years) of consistency. It's programs like Duke, like Villanova, like Michigan State, like North Carolina, like Kentucky, like Kansas that I envy. It's programs like Purdue, Florida State, Notre Dame & Michigan that are closest to that. Why? Because they get a guy in there and let them develop a winning culture. They let them keep going despite the occasional missed tournament.

I think the difference between us is mostly patience. We want the same results, but you seem to think they can happen now. Then some unicorn like Chris Beard comes along and convinces you everyone can do it. If everyone could be Chris Beard, or Brad Stevens, or Tom Izzo, why are those stories so few & far between? The best programs get there by developing a culture & letting it grow over a generation. That's the reality of the situation.

I want nothing more than a National Championship, and honestly, any season where we don't win a National Championship is, in my eyes, a failure. Sure, you can take positives from failed seasons, but ultimately there is only one goal that matters, and that's winning a National Championship. And as that usually takes coaches years to do, you have to be willing to wait years for that result. I'm willing to wait because it's the only result worth waiting for.

[muguru]

Darius Garland is probably going to the NBA. Certainly wouldn't expect him to follow Drew here.

Hypothetically, yes, we could hire a coach that does what Buzz did for Va Tech. But of his lauded 2014 recruiting class, he wasn't able to bring Cohen, he lost out on Shayok (as did we), and only brought Hill & Pierce to Va Tech. The only player of that class with meaningful value in Va Tech's future success was Hill.

Honestly, I don't care a lot about what players a coach brings with him. I don't care if they bring any players with them. I'm concerned with long-term results. I care more about what happens 10-15 years from now than I do what happens 0-5 years from now because all I really care about is a National Championship, and I don't think any new coach is going to come in and get one of those in the next 5 years. I want someone who can coach & recruit. And I want someone that will build a culture of winning, because having the kind of program that is a staple in the NCAA Tournament, gets to the occasional Final Four, & can be a viable National Championship contender takes a strong culture & years and years (and years and years and years) of consistency. It's programs like Duke, like Villanova, like Michigan State, like North Carolina, like Kentucky, like Kansas that I envy. It's programs like Purdue, Florida State, Notre Dame & Michigan that are closest to that. Why? Because they get a guy in there and let them develop a winning culture. They let them keep going despite the occasional missed tournament.

I think the difference between us is mostly patience. We want the same results, but you seem to think they can happen now. Then some unicorn like Chris Beard comes along and convinces you everyone can do it. If everyone could be Chris Beard, or Brad Stevens, or Tom Izzo, why are those stories so few & far between? The best programs get there by developing a culture & letting it grow over a generation. That's the reality of the situation.

I want nothing more than a National Championship, and honestly, any season where we don't win a National Championship is, in my eyes, a failure. Sure, you can take positives from failed seasons, but ultimately there is only one goal that matters, and that's winning a National Championship. And as that usually takes coaches years to do, you have to be willing to wait years for that result. I'm willing to wait because it's the only result worth waiting for.

You're right Brew, you and I are on EXACTLY the same page...I like that because I have a lot of respect for your posts etc. And you are again right...you are more patient..but I have news for you...I have ZERO patience for anything...I hate even waiting in any kind of line. I live my life "in a hurry". That's not the way it's supposed to be, I know, but it's the way i'm wired. Whatever i am "waiting" for, I want to get done with ASAP so I can get on to the next thing I want to do.

Further you are also younger than me, you have more time to wait..If I had one more National Championship I would have reached my "pinnacle" of sports fandom. Plus, and yes, some of it is to see Badger fans squirm and be forever pissed off..but in reality it's because I do LOVE MU hoops, and want to reach the top..I don't care how they get there(obviously without breaking rules), I just want it...badly. I prefer they do it ASAP so I KNOW for certain it will happen. the longer it takes, the less time I have left to wait. Make sense??

[Dr. Blackheart]

I am in favor of charging certain Scoop posters by the word.

[fjm]

I am in favor of charging certain Scoop posters by the word.

Haha

[MU82]

Ummm MU 82, that was in response to jesmu accusing me of not reading your post, he said you stated you thought MU should make the NCAAs every year. That isn't what you said, nor did i ask that.

I apologize. Sometimes these things end up being like the old "telephone game."

As for you again going the hypothetical route if Wojo were to get fired now (he won't) and if he were to get replaced by Coach X, that new coach would bring in transfers to make up for whoever leaves.

OK ... I'm game ...

Markus loves Wojo and Stan; they go so he leaves to start his pro career in Europe or wherever. Sam stays to play one more season with Joey, but Joey has already decided that he won't stay more than one more year unless that year is fantastic. Morrow and Sacar grad-transfer. Theo and Bailey transfer, possibly to wherever Wojo and/or Stan land. Symir decommits.  Yes, some transfers follow Coach X, but they have to sit out a year.

So for 2019-20, we are left with an unhappy Sam, an unhappy Joey, Koby, Akanno, Ike (if healthy) and leftover recruits who haven't already signed with anybody, probably 2-stars and 3-stars, and a few walk-ons. (Remember, the administration doesn't want to bring in a bunch of jucos.) Maybe Bailey didn't transfer because he's old, but that's still one weak team.

So what was to be our best season since Buzz Year 5 is a wasted year.

Then, in 2020-21, we have no Sam and no Joey (who is disillusioned to the max and has no brotherly reason to stay so he transfers or goes pro), so unless Coach X is an amazing recruiter -- better at getting 4-star and 5-star talent to Marquette than any coach since Al -- we'll be mediocre at best again.

And then if we're only OK (or worse) again the following year, which is a distinct possibility, you'll be calling for Coach X's head.

Wow, you're right guru, Hypothetical Silliness is fun!

Obviously, that's an extreme example of the bad that could happen. It probably wouldn't be that bad. Maybe it would be all seashells and balloons like you say.

But you know what ... Wojo ain't getting fired before next season ... so again ... silliness.

[muguru]

I apologize. Sometimes these things end up being like the old "telephone game."

As for you again going the hypothetical route if Wojo were to get fired now (he won't) and if he were to get replaced by Coach X, that new coach would bring in transfers to make up for whoever leaves.

OK ... I'm game ...

Markus loves Wojo and Stan; they go so he leaves to start his pro career in Europe or wherever. Sam stays to play one more season with Joey, but Joey has already decided that he won't stay more than one more year unless that year is fantastic. Morrow and Sacar grad-transfer. Theo and Bailey transfer, possibly to wherever Wojo and/or Stan land. Symir decommits.  Yes, some transfers follow Coach X, but they have to sit out a year.

So for 2019-20, we are left with an unhappy Sam, an unhappy Joey, Koby, Akanno, Ike (if healthy) and leftover recruits who haven't already signed with anybody, probably 2-stars and 3-stars, and a few walk-ons. (Remember, the administration doesn't want to bring in a bunch of jucos.) Maybe Bailey didn't transfer because he's old, but that's still one weak team.

So what was to be our best season since Buzz Year 5 is a wasted year.

Then, in 2020-21, we have no Sam and no Joey (who is disillusioned to the max and has no brotherly reason to stay so he transfers or goes pro), so unless Coach X is an amazing recruiter -- better at getting 4-star and 5-star talent to Marquette than any coach since Al -- we'll be mediocre at best again.

And then if we're only OK (or worse) again the following year, which is a distinct possibility, you'll be calling for Coach X's head.

Wow, you're right guru, Hypothetical Silliness is fun!

Obviously, that's an extreme example of the bad that could happen. It probably wouldn't be that bad. Maybe it would be all seashells and balloons like you say.

But you know what ... Wojo ain't getting fired before next season ... so again ... silliness.

He ain't getting fired...you're right, but what if he leaves on his own(also not likely...but more likely than him getting fired)?? And you are also dismissing the fact that the players that come along with Coach X could be much, much better then any of the holdovers are. So in that scenario...you have them four years now, maybe you don't miss a beat...maybe you do. Then consider what if Coach X was recruiting grad transfers or other transfers to his old place, and they then to follow him to MU?? It could happen..Then how bad off are you?? My point is MU82..years do NOT have to be "rebuild" years...they just don't if it's done right and some chips fall properly.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Wojo is going to leave in the next 4 years, this would probably be the most ideal year for it to happen. I agree with those who have said that most players would likely stay, and it would give the new coach a year with a full roster to establish himself and start recruiting.

That being said it no matta because unless one of the big boys comes calling with a fat paycheck, Wojo ain't going anywhere.

[MU82]

He ain't getting fired...you're right, but what if he leaves on his own(also not likely...but more likely than him getting fired)?? And you are also dismissing the fact that the players that come along with Coach X could be much, much better then any of the holdovers are. So in that scenario...you have them four years now, maybe you don't miss a beat...maybe you do. Then consider what if Coach X was recruiting grad transfers or other transfers to his old place, and they then to follow him to MU?? It could happen..Then how bad off are you?? My point is MU82..years do NOT have to be "rebuild" years...they just don't if it's done right and some chips fall properly.

I don't care what anybody sez, guru, you're fun!

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Sorry to redirect back to Bruce Pearl and Auburn but Teddy Greenstein at the Trib defending Pearl.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-defending-bruce-pearl-auburn-final-four-20190401-story.html

[brewcity77]

Sorry to redirect back to Bruce Pearl and Auburn but Teddy Greenstein at the Trib defending Pearl.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-defending-bruce-pearl-auburn-final-four-20190401-story.html

That'll go over like a lead balloon in the state of Illinois. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?

TC is a red delicious.

[fjm]

TC is a red delicious.

Dude. You brilliant SOB. That was one of the best conversations ever.

[tower912]

TC is a red delicious.

Orange delicious.

[Shooter McGavin]

And for all the winers about losing badly against the second best player in the country in Ja - Auburn closed last season by losing to Alabama by 28 in their first sec tourney game, barely beating a Charleston team that was not in the top 100, then losing by 31 to Clemson in a game that wasn't nearly that close.

Clear proof just one year ago that Pearl could not win at Auburn, just like Ja proving Wojo can't coach.

Agreed, we cannot definitively say anything about Wojo Right now, especially that he is not the right guy for the job. The talent level coming back and the 2020 recruiting class will tell the tale.  The picture will be much clearer next year.   The risks of firing him now or having him leave on his own are much greater than giving him another year to see if there will be accelerated progress.