Yep, I'm starting another generational thread

[mu03eng]

Came across this article on the Ringer that was very thought provoking.

https://www.theringer.com/pop-culture/2018/6/21/17487974/millennials-meaning-age-young-old

One of the thoughts that this article crystallized in my thinking is how much millennials (broad generalization alert) view life as happening to them vs them shaping/controlling their own destiny. I'm millennial adjacent as a proud member of the Oregon Trail generation, between millenials and the Oregon Trail gens we should be at the height of our economic, social, and political power but we don't act that way. Yes, I get that there is a ton of money/power trapped in the boomer generation (look at the average age of the 3 branches of the federal government and state governors) but that doesn't mean the generations below it can't wrestle control away to shape our own destiny but right now it feels more like a bunch of voices shouting in the dark as opposed to a generation that clearly sees problems in society and make a concerted effort to change it.

One of the most telling lines in the article was the reference to baby boomers "lucking" into middle class life. I can't even conceive of how such a thought is rational, any more than millenials are "lucky" to have all the technology we currently enjoy as a society.

At the end of the day I think this represents a very interesting intersection of generational power shift, death throws of tribalism, and the search for a larger meaning in life.

Thoughts?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Really interesting stuff mu03, thanks for posting.  Within the article there is a link to a HuffPo article that was well worth the time to read.

I agree with your summary, Millennials should be started to flex their generational muscle, but they aren't.  What struck me in both articles was a sense of helplessness.  While I don't disagree that Gen Y has been screwed economically, they should be fighting to make changes, but in general they are not.

I contrast this with my own Gen Z/iGen kids.  Now, maybe they are simply ignorant of the economic train coming down tracks at them, but they operate very differently.  They are of the same general age as the Parkland kids, and like them when they encounter a problem they don't spend any time figuring out all the reasons something can't be done or won't work, they just pragmatically charge in together and start working on how it can be done. Employers can't wait for this generation to hit the workforce.

The HuffPo article does a nice job documenting the reasons things got they way they are, and at the end talks about various solutions.  But they aren't going to happen until Millennials actually wrest control away from Boomers by voting.  Once again the article explains the barriers intentionally put in the way to prevent them from voting, but I again get this sense of helplessness (excuses?) instead of energy around actually making it happen.

And lastly, these are two articles that mention Gen Y, Gen Z, Boomer, and even The Greatest Generation.   As always, us Gen Xers are completely ignored! 

[mu03eng]

I agree with your summary, Millennials should be started to flex their generational muscle, but they aren't.  What struck me in both articles was a sense of helplessness.  While I don't disagree that Gen Y has been screwed economically, they should be fighting to make changes, but in general they are not.

I thought you're whole post was great, but this section really captured what I was trying to say in like 1 word....hopelessness. Whether it's the ease which millenials give up in the workforce when the first try doesn't work or the way the article throws up it's hands about all the terribleness that generation faces, it seems to come down to a sense that their helpless in the situation.

It's almost as if that generation was never taught the serenity prayer.

[Herman Cain]

Every once in a while I find a solid millennial, who is willing to take the bull by the horns and not be a slacker. I immediately make them a job offer, no matter what position is available in our company. I am taking the Dallas Cowboys best athlete available  draft approach. That is my way of dealing with this age group.  Once they are on board I have to give them a very clear career path as they don't understand it any other way.

I am sympathetic to the millennial, as they are the first group since the Great Depression that has generally not done better than their parents. My generation was full of helicopter parents who, although well intended,  made things worse for these people .

I do have great hopes for the current group of young people  who seem to be a bit more engaged and willing to work hard.

[MU82]

I just invested a pretty good chunk of my day to reading both the piece mu03's OP linked, and the HuffPo piece that was linked within that.

Interesting stuff, mostly depressing, but not all.

I know the stats are the stats are the stats - and they are both eye-opening and sad - but I can't help but look at my own history and situation.

I graduated MU in '82 - as folks mighta guessed - and there was a nasty recession going on. Jobs were scarce. I don't have the exact numbers, but out of something like 125-150 kids who graduated from MU's Journalism school that year, only about a half-dozen of us got jobs in the field. I was one of the lucky half-dozen. I went on to live a decent, middle-class life ... though when I accepted a job transfer to Chicago in the mid-'90s, we found that housing was so expensive that my wife (who had been a stay-at-home mom when we lived in the Twin Cities) had to go back to work.

We have two kids. They are now 31 and 30 - smack dab in the middle of the Millennial generation. We were attentive parents but not hoverers - especially not me, as I traveled quite a bit for work. Our kids had "stuff," but not a lot compared to their peers. They spent most of their childhoods living in a 3-BR, 1-BA, 1400 SF Chicago bungalow with a tiny yard and a leaky basement. The 4 of us shared an 8x8 bathroom. None of us were "entitled" to more, certainly not the kids. They walked or took the train everywhere. We did help both with college - and are still helping our youngest, who flunked out of Illinois after one year of partying, finally got his shyte together, and now is at DePaul working on an accounting degree. He is going to school part-time while he works full-time in a job that pays him in the $30s.

Both kids recently married. The oldest married a sharp guy who works for Microsoft. He makes a very nice living. They just bought their first house - in Seattle, which amazingly is even more expensive than Chicago. Their Millennial friends are gainfully employed and most have houses. My youngest is still probably a year or 3 away from getting a house; gotta get that degree and a better-paying job first. His wife is a teacher in Northbrook; she makes the reverse commute from their overpriced North Side apartment. None of their friends live with their parents.

All of this is to say that I still feel there is a lot of generalization going on. The Millennials I know are willing to put in the effort to have middle-class (or better) lives. Some have advantages I didn't coming out of college, many have it worse though. My kids certainly had the advantage of being white and middle class when they were born; because they went to Chicago public schools, they have many friends of color who didn't have the first advantage.

As depressing as that HuffPo piece was, I agree with the semi-hopeful conclusion. As Millennials mature and become the dominant generation numbers-wise, they can affect change if they make the effort to do so.

As the primaries approached in NC this spring, I helped get Millennials registered and also gave rides to the polls to elderly folks. I plan to do the same in November. There are other ways "Olds" like me can help make the world better for our kids' generation, too, and a lot of us are trying. We shouldn't be labeled, either!

[GooooMarquette]

All of this is to say that I still feel there is a lot of generalization going on.

This.

My brothers and I are all boomers, and our lives took us to opposite ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. I have a lot of the characteristics of a "typical" boomer, but my brothers look like boomers only in age. While things worked out fine for me, I'm guessing they would strongly disagree that they were really lucky to have been born when they were.

Both of my daughters are millennials. While they share a sense of helplessness, they address it very differently. One looks at the helplessness and dire economic outlooks and uses them as motivation to stay at the top of the millennial class. The other needs encouragement to get things done, and views every setback at catastrophic. In the end, they're both bright hardworking kids who will likely do fine, just via different paths.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

MU82,

A take away from the articles that I had was also that two-thirds of Gen Y didn't go to college.  I think that is the segment that is really in trouble.  At least a college degree gives you a semblance of a chance to get a good job, but otherwise it is very difficult to make enough to live on much less save. 

The middle class has been hollowed out in part because there simply aren't the great middle class union jobs available to people without degrees anymore, at least not in sufficient numbers.  Part is the relentless drive towards corporate profits, part is technology.  There was a discussion on the board awhile back about whether technology creates or destroys jobs, but for the still-large non-college educated segment I think there is no question it has eliminated a great many good paying jobs.

I'm not too worried about my kids who are incredibly advantaged, but I think it portends major upheavals for society in the future.

[Benny B]

One of the most telling lines in the article was the reference to baby boomers "lucking" into middle class life. I can't even conceive of how such a thought is rational, any more than millenials are "lucky" to have all the technology we currently enjoy as a society.

The economic prosperity that virtually ensured a middle-class life for Boomers began - like the Boomers themselves - with the end of WWII.

Think about it... in 1946, Russia, Japan and China were decimated.  Europe was obliterated.  Factories bombed, industry in turmoil, swaths of infrastructure reduced to rubble.  Not to mention, millions of working-age people - from combat, collateral, executions, or otherwise - dead.  Then there's America (and to a lesser extent, Canada).  Although over 400,000 young, American men (and women) in their prime perished in battle, U.S. soil was virtually untouched by the destruction of WWII.  Moreover, in response to the war, US industry went from a modest two-cycle engine to a turbo-charged jet engine in just a few short years.

In other words, in 1946, not only was the US the only superpower that had more industrial capacity than it did before the war, there was an entire continent that needed to be rebuilt.  So not only has demand for everything in the world skyrocketed, but there's hardly anyone left to compete with the U.S.  Remember when the hurricane wiped out all the other shrimpin' boats in Forrest Gump?  Forrest and Lt. Dan were the U.S. in that story, the rest of the world were the shattered remains of all the other boats.


Millennial "luck" is better defined as the hard work and innovation of the generations before them.  I'm sure the grandparents were talking about how lucky the kids were when the Atari hit the stores, or telephone came along, or when the wheel was invented, or when some guy from Nazareth finally opened the gates of heaven.

But to have your generation fall backwards into economic prosperity because your country was relatively unscathed in a war where upwards of 100 million people around the world lost their lives... I'll challenge anyone to present a better example of "luck."

[jesmu84]

But to have your generation fall backwards into economic prosperity because your country was relatively unscathed in a war where upwards of 100 million people around the world lost their lives... I'll challenge anyone to present a better example of "luck."

This.

Yet so many boomers either don't understand their situation or don't want to attribute their success to a coincidental time/set of circumstances.

Then they turn around and admonish millennials for not working hard enough or being snowflakes or not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

BS

You'd see a much different situation today if corporate/private interests didn't concentrate wealth/power at the top. And if incomes/benefits and costs were comparable today as they were then

[LAZER]

Every once in a while I find a solid millennial, who is willing to take the bull by the horns and not be a slacker. I immediately make them a job offer, no matter what position is available in our company. I am taking the Dallas Cowboys best athlete available  draft approach. That is my way of dealing with this age group.  Once they are on board I have to give them a very clear career path as they don't understand it any other way.

I am sympathetic to the millennial, as they are the first group since the Great Depression that has generally not done better than their parents. My generation was full of helicopter parents who, although well intended,  made things worse for these people .

I do have great hopes for the current group of young people  who seem to be a bit more engaged and willing to work hard.

Is this intended to be satirical?

[mu03eng]

MU82,

A take away from the articles that I had was also that two-thirds of Gen Y didn't go to college.  I think that is the segment that is really in trouble.  At least a college degree gives you a semblance of a chance to get a good job, but otherwise it is very difficult to make enough to live on much less save. 

The middle class has been hollowed out in part because there simply aren't the great middle class union jobs available to people without degrees anymore, at least not in sufficient numbers.  Part is the relentless drive towards corporate profits, part is technology.  There was a discussion on the board awhile back about whether technology creates or destroys jobs, but for the still-large non-college educated segment I think there is no question it has eliminated a great many good paying jobs.

I'm not too worried about my kids who are incredibly advantaged, but I think it portends major upheavals for society in the future.

I think one thing we have to be careful about is what we classify as non-college educated. If you are talking high school only, I 100% agree. If you are including trade school/tech school/associate degree/etc in that I very much disagree.

I see it every day, companies are begging for people in IT/OT infrastructure space...they can't use engineers because they are too overqualified/expensive, but this stuff isn't plug and play either so you gotta have more than a high school education to do the job(until we get off our ass and design curriculum for the 21st century - replace shops class with networking class).

Every one of my friends that are in the trades are doing great (electricians, plumbers, steamfitters, etc) as well and tell me all the time how their company is looking for young folks to hire.

All of this is anecdotal of course, but I don't think things are as hopeless as we make it out to be.

[mu03eng]

The economic prosperity that virtually ensured a middle-class life for Boomers began - like the Boomers themselves - with the end of WWII.

Think about it... in 1946, Russia, Japan and China were decimated.  Europe was obliterated.  Factories bombed, industry in turmoil, swaths of infrastructure reduced to rubble.  Not to mention, millions of working-age people - from combat, collateral, executions, or otherwise - dead.  Then there's America (and to a lesser extent, Canada).  Although over 400,000 young, American men (and women) in their prime perished in battle, U.S. soil was virtually untouched by the destruction of WWII.  Moreover, in response to the war, US industry went from a modest two-cycle engine to a turbo-charged jet engine in just a few short years.

In other words, in 1946, not only was the US the only superpower that had more industrial capacity than it did before the war, there was an entire continent that needed to be rebuilt.  So not only has demand for everything in the world skyrocketed, but there's hardly anyone left to compete with the U.S.  Remember when the hurricane wiped out all the other shrimpin' boats in Forrest Gump?  Forrest and Lt. Dan were the U.S. in that story, the rest of the world were the shattered remains of all the other boats.


Millennial "luck" is better defined as the hard work and innovation of the generations before them.  I'm sure the grandparents were talking about how lucky the kids were when the Atari hit the stores, or telephone came along, or when the wheel was invented, or when some guy from Nazareth finally opened the gates of heaven.

But to have your generation fall backwards into economic prosperity because your country was relatively unscathed in a war where upwards of 100 million people around the world lost their lives... I'll challenge anyone to present a better example of "luck."

I guess the Boomers got lucky with all the dysfunction that came with their parents having to survive the great depression AND WWII that imprinted on them in all sorts of negative ways.

If you're gonna blame boomers for anything(and they should be blamed) its not for lucking into the middle class, it's for their complete selfishness that failed to pass that forward to future generations.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's almost as if that generation was never taught the serenity prayer.

Yo

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I think one thing we have to be careful about is what we classify as non-college educated. If you are talking high school only, I 100% agree. If you are including trade school/tech school/associate degree/etc in that I very much disagree.

Yes, you are right, and it is an important distinction.

[mu03eng]

Yo

I thought of you when I typed that but figured you'd see the bat signal 

[Herman Cain]

Is this intended to be satirical?

No. Just hired a millennial yesterday at a good 6 figure salary. The young man demonstrated the drive and staying power necessary to compete.Loved his work ethic so we created a new position which we believe will allow him to best utilize his talents.  We hired him with the intention of someday being a division President.

We are open to hire young people with drive to compete and have a mindset that sees opportunities and is willing to develop them.

[JWags85]

One element I find interesting, is I think a lot of negative perception of Millennials comes from the same cognitive biases that apply to discussions of current versus past athletes.  Much as today, everything from off the court/field troubles, to mood swings, to trouble with the media is amplified because of the internet, and social media, and over-availability of information, the Millennials were the first generation to truly begin to grow up in an environment where not only was much of what they did and were doing readily available for all to see, but there were tons of outlets for thinkpieces and studies and opinions on what was "wrong" with them.  This isn't to say the Millennials are unfairly persecuted, but its a different landscape.

My other belief is the prior generations are very slow to adapt or realize that playing fields move and adjust.  That manifests itself in many ways, but expecting the same behavior or actions to yield the exact same result as it did 30 years ago is both flawed and extremely unfair.  Hell, I once had someone explain to me a bunch of personal finance advice, along the lines of how they sacrificed a higher salary to pursue something they were passionate about, and the lower salary they accepted was only about $5-7K less than my first position out of college...about 25 years earlier.  Millennials were also taught that HS->College->well paying job.  Suddenly millennials with college degrees in less than ideal jobs or no jobs became "slackers" or "unwilling to work", ignoring that the college degree was now a pre-req, not a bonus, and the percentage of the population holding one had tripled over the last 20-30 years.  I tried to get into finance as a psychology major (finance minor, coursework and research in behavioral finance with multiple professors in undergrad) in 2008 and had trouble getting a callback, cause I wasnt econ or STEM.   Meanwhile, the 4-5 people I received advice or mentorship in the field from had degrees ranging from history, to english, to philosophy.  It was just a different world.

Finally, for the Herman's of the world.  Don't even know where to begin, but I'm reminded of a conversation I had at a Marquette alumni event in Chicago about 7 years ago.  Seated at a table with a coworker of mine from the ad agency we both worked at.  Speaking to an older businessman around 60.  Discussing out backgrounds, he praised my coworker who had been with the agency since she graduated, said something about dedication and perseverance.  At the time, I had been with the agency for about 9 months, but it was my 3rd role out of school.  He looked at me like I was on prison work release, and then said something about my generation doesn't like hard work, leaves jobs when things get difficult, and my resume would be a major red flag to him and anyone who worked for him.  I explained that I graduated in 2008, right when things got dicey, and within 2 years, my entire starting/training class at my first job had been let go, and then my second job, the trading firm that I worked at closed its doors completely, and let all of us go.  I kid you not, his response wasn't one of understanding or apology, but rather that I clearly hadn't proven myself or my value, and if I had someone would have snapped me right up.  I was beyond taken aback.  If you're looking for someone to mirror the exact traits and experiences of yourself in a wildly different situation, in order to deem them "successful" or motivated or hard working, its going to lead to very cynical and judgmental outcomes.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

No. Just hired a millennial yesterday at a good 6 figure salary. The young man demonstrated the drive and staying power necessary to compete.Loved his work ethic so we created a new position which we believe will allow him to best utilize his talents.  We hired him with the intention of someday being a division President.

We are open to hire young people with drive to compete and have a mindset that sees opportunities and is willing to develop them.

Cool, you can put him to work creating alt IDs in order to agree with your posts, so that you don't have to.  Right, Gus?

[jesmu84]

Finally, for the Herman's of the world.  Don't even know where to begin, but I'm reminded of a conversation I had at a Marquette alumni event in Chicago about 7 years ago.  Seated at a table with a coworker of mine from the ad agency we both worked at.  Speaking to an older businessman around 60.  Discussing out backgrounds, he praised my coworker who had been with the agency since she graduated, said something about dedication and perseverance.  At the time, I had been with the agency for about 9 months, but it was my 3rd role out of school.  He looked at me like I was on prison work release, and then said something about my generation doesn't like hard work, leaves jobs when things get difficult, and my resume would be a major red flag to him and anyone who worked for him.  I explained that I graduated in 2008, right when things got dicey, and within 2 years, my entire starting/training class at my first job had been let go, and then my second job, the trading firm that I worked at closed its doors completely, and let all of us go.  I kid you not, his response wasn't one of understanding or apology, but rather that I clearly hadn't proven myself or my value, and if I had someone would have snapped me right up.  I was beyond taken aback.  If you're looking for someone to mirror the exact traits and experiences of yourself in a wildly different situation, in order to deem them "successful" or motivated or hard working, its going to lead to very cynical and judgmental outcomes.

How about the fact that that 60 year probably did actually work at 1 or 2 post-graduation jobs his entire career and was continuously rewarded with bonuses, raises, promotions, etc because of his loyalty and perseverance. Yet, his generation also created a job environment where millennials are only making significant gains in salary/compensation by jumping companies routinely. Sticking at one company is no longer in one's best interest and the older generation made it so. They want to admonish those who lack "loyalty", but will cut an employee at the drop of a hat if they can lower their costs and make the company more money. Or, my favorite, asking an employee to take on more responsibility/requirements without any increase in compensation or benefits "for the good of the organization" or because "we're like a family."

[muwarrior69]

I guess the Boomers got lucky with all the dysfunction that came with their parents having to survive the great depression AND WWII that imprinted on them in all sorts of negative ways.

If you're gonna blame boomers for anything(and they should be blamed) its not for lucking into the middle class, it's for their complete selfishness that failed to pass that forward to future generations.

Please stop! I'm a boomer. First in my family to graduate college which my parents paid. I paid for my daughters college education and took out a 100K 529 for my grand daughter. My grand parents paid for my parents home which they repaid to my grandparents. My parents did the same for me and we did the same for my daughter. Our family through the generations of hard work and savings never had to go to a bank for a loan as we passed it forward. The secret instilled to us by my grandfather was always live below your means of income.

[jesmu84]

Please stop! I'm a boomer. First in my family to graduate college which my parents paid. I paid for my daughters college education and took out a 100K 529 for my grand daughter. My grand parents paid for my parents home which they repaid to my grandparents. My parents did the same for me and we did the same for my daughter. Our family through the generations of hard work and savings never had to go to a bank for a loan as we passed it forward. The secret instilled to us by my grandfather was always live below your means of income.

Your anecdote, while commendable, doesn't extend universally. You only have to look at all the boomers who wanted to institute so many social programs and provide government support for themselves (and highly benefit from them) and now want to halt those same programs for future generations to understand that.

[Chili]

Your anecdote, while commendable, doesn't extend universally. You only have to look at all the boomers who wanted to institute so many social programs and provide government support for themselves (and highly benefit from them) and now want to halt those same programs for future generations to understand that.

Not only that, but continued to cut taxes for themselves while they hit high income years shorting the funding for those programs when they took control knowing full well that Gen X doesn't have the same amount of workers to support them. Boomers are by far the most selfish generation ever. I mean they essentially accelerated global environmental damage while profiting from it only to hope that future generations can hopefully solve it.

[muwarrior69]

Your anecdote, while commendable, doesn't extend universally. You only have to look at all the boomers who wanted to institute so many social programs and provide government support for themselves (and highly benefit from them) and now want to halt those same programs for future generations to understand that.

Wait, 85% of my SS is subject to income tax. I'm being taxed on the tax I already paid. I calculated that I would have to live to the age of 77 before I start receiving more that I put in. I also pay 105 per month for medicare and that will be going up. I agree these entitlements are not sustainable at present payouts. As a boomer I would gladly give up the COL allowance to my SS if it were not taxed. Having said all that, try to get a current politician (mostly democrats) to fix this crisis and restructure SS so it is vialble for your generation as well as my grand daughters you so rightly say is next to naught. Sorry to say your generation and my grand daughters' is going to be stuck with the bill and if I live as long as my dad (92) I could see a decrease in my SS check..

[jesmu84]

Not only that, but continued to cut taxes for themselves while they hit high income years shorting the funding for those programs when they took control knowing full well that Gen X doesn't have the same amount of workers to support them. Boomers are by far the most selfish generation ever. I mean they essentially accelerated global environmental damage while profiting from it only to hope that future generations can hopefully solve it.

Yup. And without even bringing up climate change... You only have to look at the likes of the Dupont family and Koch brothers and their crusade against things like the clean air act and clean water act simply because those things made the companies spend more than they wanted to protect the public.

[jesmu84]

Wait, 85% of my SS is subject to income tax. I'm being taxed on the tax I already paid. I calculated that I would have to live to the age of 77 before I start receiving more that I put in. I also pay 105 per month for medicare and that will be going up. I agree these entitlements are not sustainable at present payouts. As a boomer I would gladly give up the COL allowance to my SS if it were not taxed. Having said all that, try to get a current politician (mostly democrats) to fix this crisis and restructure SS so it is vialble for your generation as well as my grand daughters you so rightly say is next to naught. Sorry to say your generation and my grand daughters' is going to be stuck with the bill and if I live as long as my dad (92) I could see a decrease in my SS check..

Okay. Well, that sure covers everything boomers benefitted from...