University of Chicago Drops SAT, ACT Requirement for Admissions

[Efficient Frontier]

Wonder if UofC also has insight into SATs/ACTs not being as predictive of success as previously thought.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-chicago-drops-sat-act-requirement-for-admissions-1529009194?emailToken=e88e2cce6cf9c81e2bb4291743347c61LsDiwziPVRScfRE2xEeti4icjtbo04EyqGBXyRmndinQ85ZitSeRXfNmt6ZYO1mpcxygtX1XWzV9xaTjGXDj/S7vBi0fnzix9c94Mkiqo08j41KhmF91BVZtJtonDiLt&reflink=article_copyURL_share

[warriorchick]

Who is going to want to go to that school if they can't brag about the high score you need to get accepted?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Kinda pointless no? If every other school still requires the SAT/ACT kids are still gonna have to take it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

How is this going to play in the Northeast????

[WarriorDad]

Not alone

https://www.unigo.com/get-to-college/college-search/test-optional-colleges-10-colleges-that-dont-require-sat-or-act-scores

[warriorchick]

How is this going to play in the Northeast????

Obviously U of C is being dropped from consideration as we speak.

[GGGG]

I think it is much easier for selective schools with large application pools to do this.  It also gives them more flexibility to create diversity in their class without objective criteria that can inspire snowflakes to file lawsuits.

[WarriorDad]

I think it is much easier for selective schools with large application pools to do this.  It also gives them more flexibility to create diversity in their class without objective criteria that can inspire snowflakes to file lawsuits.

Asians are the group most likely to file lawsuits currently in this realm.  Latest is lawsuit against Harvard, but a number of these were filed in last three years.  Not sure if they are snowflakes or what the definition of diversity is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/harvard-asian-admission.html

[MU82]

Kinda pointless no? If every other school still requires the SAT/ACT kids are still gonna have to take it.

They don't.

My daughter went to Lawrence, a very good (but hardly elite) small liberal arts school in Appleton. Not all that long after she got there, they stopped requiring any SAT/ACT scores.

Here is their stated policy:

We consider test scores if you elect to submit them, and we will accept self-reported scores. We are test optional because we know that there are inherent flaws in trying to sum up your ability and potential by taking a single exam. If you are pleased with your scores, we would be pleased to see them, but we don’t look at you any differently if you do not submit.

As the link provided by chicos II shows, there are quite a few schools that no longer require these scores. It's hard to call it a "thing" yet, but the number does seem to be growing slowly.

I consider it a very positive change.

My daughter got a 29 on her ACT and wanted at least a 30. She studied and studied and studied, took it again, and got her 30. She was pleased, but it was hard work.

My son, who was a mediocre student but tested well, did absolutely zero ACT prep. He showed up, took the test, and got the same 30. Leading my daughter to say: "I hate you."

My daughter applied herself at Lawrence and did very well. My son was an eff-up and flunked out of Illinois after a year. (He's now doing great, but that was a tension-filled time in our house.)

In other words, as predictors of academic success, the ACT didn't predict much. At least by this admittedly very limited anecdotal evidence.

[GGGG]

My understanding is that standardized tests are a relatively good predictor of college success - meaning persisting and ultimately graduating.

However they are not as strong as predictor as the degree of difficulty of the high school courses (AP, honors, etc.) and the grades received in those courses.  My guess is that Chicago feels the test scores are unnecessary since it already has the high school transcript. 

[StillAWarrior]

My daughter got a 29 on her ACT and wanted at least a 30. She studied and studied and studied, took it again, and got her 30. She was pleased, but it was hard work.

My son, who was a mediocre student but tested well, did absolutely zero ACT prep. He showed up, took the test, and got the same 30. Leading my daughter to say: "I hate you."

Yeah, we're getting into this dynamic at our house.  My first two cracked 30 (don't recall exactly what they got...I know she beat him by one...which she reminds him about...being extremely competitive has served her well).  They did a bit of prep, but nothing out of the ordinary.  My third just isn't as good at standardized tests as the first two.  She's really worked and taken the test several times (including last week...fingers crossed).  Her score is good, but she hasn't gotten to 30 (which is kind of a "magic" number for a lot of schools).  Her grades are comparable to theirs and she's really worked hard and pushed herself in HS.  She just doesn't click on these tests like her older siblings.  I'm very curious to see how it all plays out in the admissions/scholarship process.

[MU82]

Yeah, we're getting into this dynamic at our house.  My first two cracked 30 (don't recall exactly what they got...I know she beat him by one...which she reminds him about...being extremely competitive has served her well).  They did a bit of prep, but nothing out of the ordinary.  My third just isn't as good at standardized tests as the first two.  She's really worked and taken the test several times (including last week...fingers crossed).  Her score is good, but she hasn't gotten to 30 (which is kind of a "magic" number for a lot of schools).  Her grades are comparable to theirs and she's really worked hard and pushed herself in HS.  She just doesn't click on these tests like her older siblings.  I'm very curious to see how it all plays out in the admissions/scholarship process.

Lawrence U, baby!

jk ... hope it all works out to her satisfaction.

[StillAWarrior]

My understanding is that standardized tests are a relatively good predictor of college success - meaning persisting and ultimately graduating.

However they are not as strong as predictor as the degree of difficulty of the high school courses (AP, honors, etc.) and the grades received in those courses.  My guess is that Chicago feels the test scores are unnecessary since it already has the high school transcript.

This is absolutely true.  Unfortunately, in some cases, the problems with testing can even affect this.  Our kids' HS uses a standard test at the outset and uses it to place kids in honors courses.  Same problem as mentioned in a previous post for my third daughter.  She didn't get placed in honors as a freshman, and has been pushing hard ever since.  She's gone to department heads and fought to be placed in honors and AP courses.  Against their recommendation on several occasions.  But she's worked hard and done great in those classes.  I think that some kids who don't test well don't do that, so they have the lower test scores and don't have the rigorous HS courses.

We often recall the comment that the head of the math department made when she asked to be placed in AP Calc:  "you will struggle."  She did it anyway, worked her ass off, and did great.  I told her that this exchange..."you will struggle"...will make a great theme for college application essay.  And, that teacher is writing her faculty recommendation.  I'm really hoping that the fact that she sought out harder classes and did well will help boost her up if her ACT/SAT scores aren't where she wants them.  And, we'll have to look into these schools that are test optional.

[#UnleashSean]

I got a 33 on my act. I was a veeeeery bad student. Both in high school and college. I just didn't want to put in the time. The only reason I got accepted at places was because of the act. Glad I got out when I did haha.

[Disco Hippie]

How is this going to play in the Northeast????

As long as U of C continues to remain a highly selective school it won’t have any negative impact.

[Herman Cain]

How is this going to play in the Northeast????

As long as U of C continues to remain a highly selective school it won’t have any negative impact.

I think it will work out well. More kids will apply now, as many self select out do to perception of high test score requirements.  Spaces available will stay the same so acceptance rate will be even lower.

[dgies9156]

I may be naive but here's my question:

If you don't have standardized tests, how do you measure whether a student is prepared to go to college?

Consider that Student "A" goes to a college preparatory high school, get's a 3.0+ GPA, strong references and strong academic performance throughout high school. She is applying to the University of Excellence, which is highly selective, a near Ivy and has a huge academic reputation.

Now consider Student "B". Goes to West Bumfork Community High School in central Florida. He's athlete who was important to the football team. He has the same 3.0+ grade point, has apparently good academics and the benefit of playing football. But he skated because he needed strong grades to foster a football career and to assure West Bumfork defeats North Bumfork. His father went to the University of Excellence and he wants his son to go there as a legacy.

Student "C" has a learning disability. She has parents who want her to go to The University of Excellence. She goes to a good high school, gets a 3.0+ GPA and has a few teachers who will talk about how wonderful she is. She probably belongs in college and has a great attitude et al. But her coursework is LD-type classes.

At day's end, I always believed the ACT and SAT was designed to "standardize" these three applicants. They allow for the equalization of inherently unequal standards between high schools and allow for a comprehensive picture of a person in college. Perhaps someone can educate me, but my point is that all GPAs are not equal and all class rankings are not equal.

[MU82]

I may be naive but here's my question:

If you don't have standardized tests, how do you measure whether a student is prepared to go to college?

Consider that Student "A" goes to a college preparatory high school, get's a 3.0+ GPA, strong references and strong academic performance throughout high school. She is applying to the University of Excellence, which is highly selective, a near Ivy and has a huge academic reputation.

Now consider Student "B". Goes to West Bumfork Community High School in central Florida. He's athlete who was important to the football team. He has the same 3.0+ grade point, has apparently good academics and the benefit of playing football. But he skated because he needed strong grades to foster a football career and to assure West Bumfork defeats North Bumfork. His father went to the University of Excellence and he wants his son to go there as a legacy.

Student "C" has a learning disability. She has parents who want her to go to The University of Excellence. She goes to a good high school, gets a 3.0+ GPA and has a few teachers who will talk about how wonderful she is. She probably belongs in college and has a great attitude et al. But her coursework is LD-type classes.

At day's end, I always believed the ACT and SAT was designed to "standardize" these three applicants. They allow for the equalization of inherently unequal standards between high schools and allow for a comprehensive picture of a person in college. Perhaps someone can educate me, but my point is that all GPAs are not equal and all class rankings are not equal.

I don't have all the answers, but I guess I'd judge them on my face-to-face meetings with them, their essays, and their body of work.

[Efficient Frontier]

I may be naive but here's my question:

If you don't have standardized tests, how do you measure whether a student is prepared to go to college?

Consider that Student "A" goes to a college preparatory high school, get's a 3.0+ GPA, strong references and strong academic performance throughout high school. She is applying to the University of Excellence, which is highly selective, a near Ivy and has a huge academic reputation.

Now consider Student "B". Goes to West Bumfork Community High School in central Florida. He's athlete who was important to the football team. He has the same 3.0+ grade point, has apparently good academics and the benefit of playing football. But he skated because he needed strong grades to foster a football career and to assure West Bumfork defeats North Bumfork. His father went to the University of Excellence and he wants his son to go there as a legacy.

Student "C" has a learning disability. She has parents who want her to go to The University of Excellence. She goes to a good high school, gets a 3.0+ GPA and has a few teachers who will talk about how wonderful she is. She probably belongs in college and has a great attitude et al. But her coursework is LD-type classes.

At day's end, I always believed the ACT and SAT was designed to "standardize" these three applicants. They allow for the equalization of inherently unequal standards between high schools and allow for a comprehensive picture of a person in college. Perhaps someone can educate me, but my point is that all GPAs are not equal and all class rankings are not equal.

It makes intuitive sense, but all depends on how valuable each of the variables are in predicting success.

I have zero doubt that UofC has concluded that ACT/SAT scores have less explanatory power for success at the school than the others they still collect.

[Efficient Frontier]

I may be naive but here's my question:

If you don't have standardized tests, how do you measure whether a student is prepared to go to college?

Consider that Student "A" goes to a college preparatory high school, get's a 3.0+ GPA, strong references and strong academic performance throughout high school. She is applying to the University of Excellence, which is highly selective, a near Ivy and has a huge academic reputation.

Now consider Student "B". Goes to West Bumfork Community High School in central Florida. He's athlete who was important to the football team. He has the same 3.0+ grade point, has apparently good academics and the benefit of playing football. But he skated because he needed strong grades to foster a football career and to assure West Bumfork defeats North Bumfork. His father went to the University of Excellence and he wants his son to go there as a legacy.

Student "C" has a learning disability. She has parents who want her to go to The University of Excellence. She goes to a good high school, gets a 3.0+ GPA and has a few teachers who will talk about how wonderful she is. She probably belongs in college and has a great attitude et al. But her coursework is LD-type classes.

At day's end, I always believed the ACT and SAT was designed to "standardize" these three applicants. They allow for the equalization of inherently unequal standards between high schools and allow for a comprehensive picture of a person in college. Perhaps someone can educate me, but my point is that all GPAs are not equal and all class rankings are not equal.

BTW - this is completely a pet peeve of mine, but the use of “Ivies” as a blanket category of the best schools in the US isn’t a relevant distinction.

Ivy is an athletic league. Nobody should be confused about Cornell being a more prestigious institution than Duke, CalTech, Chicago, Northwestern, etc.

Cornell/Brown are not in the same realm of exclusivity or prestige.

[cheebs09]

BTW - this is completely a pet peeve of mine, but the use of “Ivies” as a blanket category of the best schools in the US isn’t a relevant distinction.

Ivy is an athletic league. Nobody should be confused about Cornell being a more prestigious institution than Duke, CalTech, Chicago, Northwestern, etc.

Cornell/Brown are not in the same realm of exclusivity or prestige.

[Silkk the Shaka]

BTW - this is completely a pet peeve of mine, but the use of “Ivies” as a blanket category of the best schools in the US isn’t a relevant distinction.

Ivy is an athletic league. Nobody should be confused about Cornell being a more prestigious institution than Duke, (#9) CalTech (#10), Chicago, Northwestern (#11), etc.

Cornell (tie for #12)/Brown (tie for #12) are not in the same realm of exclusivity or prestige.

Uh.... yeah okay dude. Whatever you and the arrogant circles you travel in want to believe.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Uh.... yeah okay dude. Whatever you and the arrogant circles you travel in want to believe.

nicely played on the edit of Frontier's post.

[MU82]

OK, here comes the next fun episode of Name That Scooper!

Who is Efficient Frontier?

The sample size isn't large enough for me to know yet ... but we haven't seen Smuggles (Heisey) around these parts for awhile now, have we?

[#UnleashSean]

I don't have all the answers, but I guess I'd judge them on my face-to-face meetings with them, their essays, and their body of work.

What face to face meetings are you doing in undergrad?