"MU continues to move away from its roots"

[GGGG]

ummm...no.  i'm reading/hearing everyone on the board here, regardless of what their perspective is.  perhaps you haven't been around long enough to know me and/or my responses.  if smith, sully and 82 are your references, you have some homework to do-

   you do realize that the 50's were considered the "golden age" of america, right?  stable families, low crime, economic growth and prosperity, wholesome tv shows...hate when that happens though, eyn'er?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12-25/news/ct-oped-1225-chapman-20111225_1_golden-age-crime-and-property-crime-homicide-rate

 have a nice memorial weekend

The 50s were great...if you were white, heterosexual and male. Not to mention that if you were poor, you were very poor. Poverty rate was nearly 25% at the end of the decade.

Way over-romanticized.

[reinko]

ummm...no.  i'm reading/hearing everyone on the board here, regardless of what their perspective is.  perhaps you haven't been around long enough to know me and/or my responses.  if smith, sully and 82 are your references, you have some homework to do-

   you do realize that the 50's were considered the "golden age" of america, right?  stable families, low crime, economic growth and prosperity, wholesome tv shows...hate when that happens though, eyn'er?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12-25/news/ct-oped-1225-chapman-20111225_1_golden-age-crime-and-property-crime-homicide-rate

 have a nice memorial weekend

Ah yes, the 50's with its 10x infant mortality rate compared to now, pre Brown v. Board, effective tax rates for the richest around 60-70%. 

[dgies9156]

The whole "away from its roots" argument has so many issues on so many levels that it's hard to address them all in Scoop. The key ones though and this Scooper's Take are:

1) If the young man was so disgusted by Marquette's liberalness, what was he doing there? Seems as though he needed to do a better job of due diligence before he enrolled.

2) There are fundamental differences between theological liberalism, political liberalism and social liberalism. Ditto for conservatism. More than a few politicians and social activists have been driven crazy because they don't understand the differences among the three and the implication for Catholic support.

3) Marquette is not the government and therefore a professor/student or administrator is not having their freedom of speech impaired if the university regulates what you can say or do. Period.

4) If, as the disgruntled student alleges, there are Planned Parenthood signs and posters up at Marquette (and I'm not sure I buy it, but OK, let's suppose), then the university should have a problem with that. It is indeed a Catholic university and our faith indeed has a problem with Planned Parenthood.

5) Now, suppose that the professors are as liberal as the poster says they are. So what? Part of learning is to critically assess what's being asserted and to accept that which is truth and to reject those things that are not. The writer comes from a conservative background. I get it. But I also am guessing, he is very uncomfortable being challenged. Wait until he gets out in the real world!!!

6) The poster acts if professors are teaching Gospel truth. They aren't, except maybe in the Theology Department. I think back on some of the urban affairs style political science I learned when I was at Marquette years ago and realize how wrong most of it was. Time moves on and what a university does is to give you a foundation to think and to evaluate. The key word is foundation and I suspect the complainer Brother Herman introduced us to didn't get the concept of foundation and continuous learning.

Ultimately, one hopes the McAdams incident and some of the things we've heard about in recent years are isolated incidents. My expectation is that Marquette, as it was years ago, will always be a mechanism for respectful debate and acceptance of divergent views within the spirit of the Catholicism it espouses.

[GGGG]

The whole "away from its roots" argument has so many issues on so many levels that it's hard to address them all in Scoop. The key ones though and this Scooper's Take are:

1) If the young man was so disgusted by Marquette's liberalness, what was he doing there? Seems as though he needed to do a better job of due diligence before he enrolled.

2) There are fundamental differences between theological liberalism, political liberalism and social liberalism. Ditto for conservatism. More than a few politicians and social activists have been driven crazy because they don't understand the differences among the three and the implication for Catholic support.

3) Marquette is not the government and therefore a professor/student or administrator is not having their freedom of speech impaired if the university regulates what you can say or do. Period.

4) If, as the disgruntled student alleges, there are Planned Parenthood signs and posters up at Marquette (and I'm not sure I buy it, but OK, let's suppose), then the university should have a problem with that. It is indeed a Catholic university and our faith indeed has a problem with Planned Parenthood.

5) Now, suppose that the professors are as liberal as the poster says they are. So what? Part of learning is to critically assess what's being asserted and to accept that which is truth and to reject those things that are not. The writer comes from a conservative background. I get it. But I also am guessing, he is very uncomfortable being challenged. Wait until he gets out in the real world!!!

6) The poster acts if professors are teaching Gospel truth. They aren't, except maybe in the Theology Department. I think back on some of the urban affairs style political science I learned when I was at Marquette years ago and realize how wrong most of it was. Time moves on and what a university does is to give you a foundation to think and to evaluate. The key word is foundation and I suspect the complainer Brother Herman introduced us to didn't get the concept of foundation and continuous learning.

Ultimately, one hopes the McAdams incident and some of the things we've heard about in recent years are isolated incidents. My expectation is that Marquette, as it was years ago, will always be a mechanism for respectful debate and acceptance of divergent views within the spirit of the Catholicism it espouses.

This is very good.

The only issues I have are with #3 and #4.  Regarding #3, it isn't good for any institution to repress freedom of speech in general.  However my experience tell me that some students often feel that this freedom is unlimited.  That they have a right to say whatever they want whenever they want - and they just don't.  (I've noticed this with students on every side of the political spectrum.)

Regarding #4, there may be Planned Parenthood signs on campus.  Is that being promoted by the University?  Doubtful.    Are they signs of support by other students?  It could be, and the Marquette community should be OK with that.

[dgies9156]

This is very good.

The only issues I have are with #3 and #4.  Regarding #3, it isn't good for any institution to repress freedom of speech in general.  However my experience tell me that some students often feel that this freedom is unlimited.  That they have a right to say whatever they want whenever they want - and they just don't.  (I've noticed this with students on every side of the political spectrum.)

Regarding #4, there may be Planned Parenthood signs on campus.  Is that being promoted by the University?  Doubtful.    Are they signs of support by other students?  It could be, and the Marquette community should be OK with that.

Thank you Brother Sultan.

On 3, every institution regulates speech and printed word. There are certain incendiary words, phrases and language that are inherently offensive and an organization has to regulate. Even the landmark Near vs. Minnesota case in the 1940s allowed the government certain First Amendment exceptions to unlimited free speech. At issue, to your point, is how far it goes.

On 4, I agree the university is not promoting Planned Parenthood. But to allow signage on university property and in offices sanctioned by the university leads to confusion about its position. That, to some degree, is the point of conservatives. Is it worth fighting over? Probably not. Should the university encourage good judgment within the framework of the values it espouses? Of course.

[GGGG]

Thank you Brother Sultan.

On 3, every institution regulates speech and printed word. There are certain incendiary words, phrases and language that are inherently offensive and an organization has to regulate. Even the landmark Near vs. Minnesota case in the 1940s allowed the government certain First Amendment exceptions to unlimited free speech. At issue, to your point, is how far it goes.

On 4, I agree the university is not promoting Planned Parenthood. But to allow signage on university property and in offices sanctioned by the university leads to confusion about its position. That, to some degree, is the point of conservatives. Is it worth fighting over? Probably not. Should the university encourage good judgment within the framework of the values it espouses? Of course.

Regarding #3, we are in agreement.

Regarding #4, I went back and re-read the article.  The student was complaining about professors putting up Planned Parenthood posters on their office doors.  Let me tell you something about professors office doors - they are like billboards.  Unless something is way outside the bounds, a University isn't going to regulate what a professor puts there.  Christopher Wolfe, who was the best professor I had at MU, used to have pictures of aborted fetuses on his door.

And the University doesn't have to respond to that.  In fact it would be nonsensical to respond to something anytime a student got upset when a professor put something on their door that they didn't like. 

If these signs were on the door of the student health center or something similar, I would agree that it would be out of place for a Catholic university. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

So the student says he is upset that McAdams had his free speech limited but then wants to limit the free speech of other professors?  Seems a tad inconsistent.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

ummm...no.  i'm reading/hearing everyone on the board here, regardless of what their perspective is.  perhaps you haven't been around long enough to know me and/or my responses.  if smith, sully and 82 are your references, you have some homework to do-

   you do realize that the 50's were considered the "golden age" of america, right?  stable families, low crime, economic growth and prosperity, wholesome tv shows...hate when that happens though, eyn'er?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12-25/news/ct-oped-1225-chapman-20111225_1_golden-age-crime-and-property-crime-homicide-rate

 have a nice memorial weekend

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The Inquisition?

Funny because I was watching History of the World Part I last night and have had the Mel Brooks' Inquisition song stuck in my head since watching.

[Coleman]

I had 10 Jesuit professors through my 4 years at MU. How many Jesuits still teach at MU?

I had 4. Graduated in 2008. The history department still had a few floating around...Zeps, Morrison, Donnelly

Avela is a priest, though not a Jesuit

[Coleman]

I actually feel sorry for this kid, although he is certainly a spoiled brat. I feel sorry for him because he will ultimately be worse off for skipping town the first time his beliefs and values are questioned. His experience sounds like a common one for a freshman in college. Many of us held pre conceived notions (liberal or conservative) from our upbringing, which was largely a product of our parents and/or high school community. I certainly did. My views as a high school graduate were not that different from this kid. Marquette challenged many of these beliefs for me by exposing me to a much wider breadth of experiences, cultures, and beliefs. I graduated a more thoughtful person, who learned to see nuance and depth in every moral issue. I don't know whether I am a liberal now, as I tend to hate labels, although many would probably call me one. I am still very much a Catholic, probably a better one than I was before Marquette. Whatever side of the political spectrum you are on, four years at Marquette will undoubtedly make you a better citizen and moral being.

[drewm88]

Many of us held pre conceived notions (liberal or conservative) from our upbringing, which was largely a product of our parents and/or high school community. I certainly did. My views as a high school graduate were not that different from this kid. Marquette challenged many of these beliefs for me by exposing me to a much wider breadth of experiences, cultures, and beliefs.

I'd say you're correct about that being a common experience. James Marcia has a theory about you.
https://www.learning-theories.com/identity-status-theory-marcia.html

I'm sure TAMU can take you to church on other relevant theories and the like.

[naginiF]

.......
4) If, as the disgruntled student alleges, there are Planned Parenthood signs and posters up at Marquette (and I'm not sure I buy it, but OK, let's suppose), then the university should have a problem with that. It is indeed a Catholic university and our faith indeed has a problem with Planned Parenthood.....

Out of pure non-catholic inquisitiveness.....Is this a problem with PP because of all the services they provide, a problem specifically related to abortion and/or contraception services, or is it that the abortion/contraception services overshadow any of the other services and the issue is with all of PP?

I assume its an issue with abortion services specifically but i could read the bolded as more of a blanket statement 

[Hards Alumni]

Out of pure non-catholic inquisitiveness.....Is this a problem with PP because of all the services they provide, a problem specifically related to abortion and/or contraception services, or is it that the abortion/contraception services overshadow any of the other services and the issue is with all of PP?

I assume its an issue with abortion services specifically but i could read the bolded as more of a blanket statement

Its abortion.  Women's health shouldn't be an issue.

[naginiF]

Its abortion.  Women's health shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks.  I figured as much.  The committed Catholics that i'm close with are pretty socially liberal and I assumed that was the norm but sometimes get the impression, from a few vocals (frequents?) here, that the church hasn't moved passed the hard line on certain issues.  I totally understand the hard line on abortion....may disagree with exactly where the line is drawn, but understand it....i don't get opposition to women's health or contraception.  I appreciate you clarifying.

EDIT: i also posed the question on this thread before i saw the whole M2N thread derailment - was not meant to be antagonistic.  but yeah.....wow

[forgetful]

I actually feel sorry for this kid, although he is certainly a spoiled brat. I feel sorry for him because he will ultimately be worse off for skipping town the first time his beliefs and values are questioned. His experience sounds like a common one for a freshman in college. Many of us held pre conceived notions (liberal or conservative) from our upbringing, which was largely a product of our parents and/or high school community. I certainly did. My views as a high school graduate were not that different from this kid. Marquette challenged many of these beliefs for me by exposing me to a much wider breadth of experiences, cultures, and beliefs. I graduated a more thoughtful person, who learned to see nuance and depth in every moral issue. I don't know whether I am a liberal now, as I tend to hate labels, although many would probably call me one. I am still very much a Catholic, probably a better one than I was before Marquette. Whatever side of the political spectrum you are on, four years at Marquette will undoubtedly make you a better citizen and moral being.

This is what college is supposed to be about. 

There was a guy, extremely conservative, and extremely religious that used to walk my floor and want to "fix people" by preaching to them.  Everyone sent him away.  I always welcomed him in and we would politely discuss/debate issues.  Often we would reach a point where he didn't know what to say/confused (most of his thoughts came directly from his preacher: Deep South southern baptist), and he would ask if he could consult with his preacher and come back the next week. 

We would meet most weeks for essentially my entire freshman year and much of my sophomore year.  Most of my friends asked why I even bothered with him, as he was clearly nuts (he wasn't, just very devote). 

I learned a lot from him, and he has told me our discussions were important to him developing his own ability to critically examine issues.  He is still quite devote, actually worked at the Vatican for awhile.  We are still friends, and neither of us would give up those discussions even thought our beliefs/stances were quite the opposite each other. 

This kid will miss out on such opportunities.  It is actually quite a shame.

[Billy Hoyle]

Regarding #4, I went back and re-read the articlle. Christopher Wolfe, who was the best professor I had at MU, used to have pictures of aborted fetuses on his door.

And the University doesn't have to respond to that.  In fact it would be nonsensical to respond to something anytime a student got upset when a professor put something on their door that they didn't like. 

If these signs were on the door of the student health center or something similar, I would agree that it would be out of place for a Catholic university.

I remember Wolfe (my advisor) having a number of pro-life propaganda articles posted, including the oft discredited “abortion causes breast cancer” article prominently featured.

This kid will fit in well at Liberty, Hillsdale or Bob Jones. A place where his views aren’t challenged but rather validated. Where everyone looks like him, dresses like him, acts him and thinks like him. He’ll get a nice internship with YAF or a like organization that thrives on the “conservative persecution” myth.  Infeel sorry fir the kid and believe Marquette is a better place with him leaving.

[rocket surgeon]

Ah yes, the 50's with its 10x infant mortality rate compared to now, pre Brown v. Board, effective tax rates for the richest around 60-70%.

i've got to think that it was in fact the prevailing morality and wholesome attitudes of the 50's along with the economic growth and prosperity that set the basis for improvement within the fields of medicine, birth rates and continued improvement in race relations.  as we are seeing today, brown vs. the board, although it had nothing but good intentions, is not turning out to be what they had envisioned, eyn'a?

     

 

[NorthernDancerColt]

Regarding #3, we are in agreement.

Regarding #4, I went back and re-read the article.  The student was complaining about professors putting up Planned Parenthood posters on their office doors.  Let me tell you something about professors office doors - they are like billboards.  Unless something is way outside the bounds, a University isn't going to regulate what a professor puts there.  Christopher Wolfe, who was the best professor I had at MU, used to have pictures of aborted fetuses on his door.

And the University doesn't have to respond to that.  In fact it would be nonsensical to respond to something anytime a student got upset when a professor put something on their door that they didn't like. 

If these signs were on the door of the student health center or something similar, I would agree that it would be out of place for a Catholic university.

This. I remember Wolfe well. His Constitutional Law class was something I looked forward to. He made no apologies for his Conservatism, but he treated all sides fairly, and I was a raging leftist back then, so I would know. He just demanded that your arguments were well-constructed. I don't recall the fetus pictures, but then i didn't meet with Wolfe much. I am impressed when a person's favorites don't match others' stereotypes of them. I wouldn't have pegged you a Wolfe fan. Like the young black man I once worked with who was the biggest Heavy Metal fan I've ever known. Or Jimmy Butler with the boots and Country playlist.

[tower912]

Dr. Wolfe has been mentioned as many posters favorite prof (mine too) for many of the reasons listed.   Conservative, fair, funny, compassionate.   Took what could have been a tedious class and made it riveting.   I was fortunate to have two classes with him.

[jesmu84]

i've got to think that it was in fact the prevailing morality and wholesome attitudes of the 50's along with the economic growth and prosperity that set the basis for improvement within the fields of medicine, birth rates and continued improvement in race relations.  as we are seeing today, brown vs. the board, although it had nothing but good intentions, is not turning out to be what they had envisioned, eyn'a?

     

 

Wow. "Morality and wholesome attitudes" = state sponsored segregation. Good to understand where you're coming from. Your posts make a lot more sense now.

[Galway Eagle]

i've got to think that it was in fact the prevailing morality and wholesome attitudes of the 50's along with the economic growth and prosperity that set the basis for improvement within the fields of medicine, birth rates and continued improvement in race relations.  as we are seeing today, brown vs. the board, although it had nothing but good intentions, is not turning out to be what they had envisioned, eyn'a?

     

 

 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

i've got to think that it was in fact the prevailing morality and wholesome attitudes of the 50's along with the economic growth and prosperity that set the basis for improvement within the fields of medicine, birth rates and continued improvement in race relations.  as we are seeing today, brown vs. the board, although it had nothing but good intentions, is not turning out to be what they had envisioned, eyn'a?

 

Institutional racism and sexism was wholesome?  And removing segregation was bad? 

Are you trolling, or really this ignorant?

[GGGG]

Dr. Wolfe has been mentioned as many posters favorite prof (mine too) for many of the reasons listed.   Conservative, fair, funny, compassionate.   Took what have been a tedious class and made it riveting.   I was fortunate to have two classes with him.

I had two as well.  Constitutional Law and Civil Liberties.  And they were hard.  But you are correct - he made it riveting.  I remember spending hours in the Library reading those court cases trying to figure out what they were about.  He would have a quiz every Friday on the readings for the week - and he wouldn't get around to talking about those cases until the *next* week.

[Hards Alumni]

Institutional racism and sexism was wholesome?  And removing segregation was bad? 

Are you trolling, or really this ignorant?

Nah its called being, "old fashioned".  Don't you get it?