Something major going on at UWM? A lot of departures announced

[WarriorDad]

What is going on on the east side the last 24 hours?  Three transfers and some of their in bound recruits backing out.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2018/04/23/uw-milwaukees-top-3-players-leaving-basketball-program/542606002/

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

What is going on on the east side the last 24 hours?  Three transfers and some of their in bound recruits backing out.


https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2018/04/23/uw-milwaukees-top-3-players-leaving-basketball-program/542606002/

Well chicos you surely know the coach, AD, president or quite possibly all three.  Please expound on what the article doesnt already tell us.

[GGGG]

Superbar.

But anyway, the leadership of the athletic department is a mess and I don't think the University cares all that much.  They hired Lavall Jordan instead of Milwaukee native TJ Otzelberger, now Jordan is gone and apparently they have no decent players, while TJO just wrapped up his second tournament appearance at South Dakota State. 

[Skip Intro]

The three current players transferring out (actually, five total now) is one thing, because they weren't Baldwin's players.  But losing three of the four incoming recruits seems to point to some major issue with Baldwin or another aspect of the program, because they all signed on last fall, while he was already the coach. 

The current players' comments sure do make it sound like it's probably an issue with Baldwin.  Wonder if Todd Townsend will be their HC by this time next year?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Baldwin gets canned,  does that help or hurt our chances of getting his kid?

[Nukem2]

If Baldwin gets canned,  does that help or hurt our chances of getting his kid?

Probably hurt as papa would be hired by a school that would take the kid.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Probably hurt as papa would be hired by a school that would take the kid.

Fire Stan?
Open a spot?

[brewcity77]

Superbar.

But anyway, the leadership of the athletic department is a mess and I don't think the University cares all that much.  They hired Lavall Jordan instead of Milwaukee native TJ Otzelberger, now Jordan is gone and apparently they have no decent players, while TJO just wrapped up his second tournament appearance at South Dakota State.

I remember at the time thinking that not grabbing TJO was a huge mistake. Nothing against Jordan, but they had a home run hire who's a local guy. I get why they went the route they did, but think they will regret it in the long run.

[The Lens]

I remember at the time thinking that not grabbing TJO was a huge mistake. Nothing against Jordan, but they had a home run hire who's a local guy. I get why they went the route they did, but think they will regret it in the long run.

If I was UWM I definitely would have hired TJO.  That being said, there's always been a little bit of Bruce Pearl type smoke around TJ.  Hiring a guy off of John Beilein's staff who also played at Butler is a safe, smart and squeaky clean move.

[mu03eng]

If I was UWM I definitely would have hired TJO.  That being said, there's always been a little bit of Bruce Pearl type smoke around TJ.  Hiring a guy off of John Beilein's staff who also played at Butler is a safe, smart and squeaky clean move.

Yeah but why does a UWM want/need to play it safe? I hate Bruce Pearl but they were relevant with him. This isn't a school with some tremendous legacy they can build off of, if I was them I'd cut as many corners as I could to become relevant.

[Billy Hoyle]

The three current players transferring out (actually, five total now) is one thing, because they weren't Baldwin's players.  But losing three of the four incoming recruits seems to point to some major issue with Baldwin or another aspect of the program, because they all signed on last fall, while he was already the coach. 

The current players' comments sure do make it sound like it's probably an issue with Baldwin.  Wonder if Todd Townsend will be their HC by this time next year?

sounds like poaching since all said they want to play at the "high major level." More reasons the proposal for immediate eligibility for transfers needs to be defeated.

[GGGG]

sounds like poaching since all said they want to play at the "high major level." More reasons the proposal for immediate eligibility for transfers needs to be defeated.

No.  They should be able to play.

[wadesworld]

Yeah but why does a UWM want/need to play it safe? I hate Bruce Pearl but they were relevant with him. This isn't a school with some tremendous legacy they can build off of, if I was them I'd cut as many corners as I could to become relevant.

Because they were cheating with Bruce Pearl and I believe they were ineligible for postseason play for a time because of an APR that was too low.

[GGGG]

Because they were cheating with Bruce Pearl and I believe they were ineligible for postseason play for a time because of an APR that was too low.

That was well into Jeter's tenure.

[wadesworld]

That was well into Jeter's tenure.

Yeah that's what I mean.  I have no idea if they went with Baldwin to help clean up/give the program a clean image, but that would be the reason they felt that need if that's what they were going for.

[DCHoopster]

Because they were cheating with Bruce Pearl and I believe they were ineligible for postseason play for a time because of an APR that was too low.

Proof??

[Mr. Nielsen]

TJ is white. Lavall Jordan is black. Lena Taylor made it a race thing, when see rushed in on a press conference. Lena Taylor said Amanda Braun was a racist.

[alexius23]

Sad implosion. It does matter as UWM is part of this State’s basketball 🏀 culture.

[GGGG]

Sad implosion. It does matter as UWM is part of this State’s basketball 🏀 culture.

It really doesn't matter.  There are low level D1 schools all over the place that aren't part of their state's culture in any meaningful way.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Sad implosion. It does matter as UWM is part of this State’s basketball 🏀 culture.

😂😂😂 dumb and funny

Unless it was teal, if teal bravo 👏👏

[Dawson Rental]

Fire Stan?
Open a spot?

Yes, because once we get Pat Baldwin, Jr., MU won't need to ever recruit another basketball player, and who needs the guys on the roster who are close to Stan anyway?

[GoldenDieners32]

Also a player from Chicago decommited from UWM last week

[MuMark]

Illinois transfer TeJon Lucas just committed to Milwaukee, he tells @Rivals.

[brewcity77]

Illinois transfer TeJon Lucas just committed to Milwaukee, he tells @Rivals.

Maybe their entire roster was afraid of losing minutes?

[Billy Hoyle]

No.  They should be able to play.

sure, after a year. You make a commitment to an institution, who thus makes a commitment to you, you should play your whole career there, and unless you are run off or the coach with whom you signed leaves, you sit.  The power conference schools want the changes so they can poach even more than they are doing now.

[panda]

sure, after a year. You make a commitment to an institution, who thus makes a commitment to you, you should play your whole career there, and unless you are run off or the coach with whom you signed leaves, you sit.  The power conference schools want the changes so they can poach even more than they are doing now.

I bet you don’t want college athletes to be paid, so why should these particular students who receive a scholarship be bound to a university no matter what, while another non athlete who’s given a scholarship at the same institution is free to transfer whenever they like?

Also to your other point ---- Te'jon Lucas just announced he's transferring from Illinois to UWM. Those dang power schools just poaching all of the talent !!!!!!!!!!!

[GGGG]

sure, after a year. You make a commitment to an institution, who thus makes a commitment to you, you should play your whole career there, and unless you are run off or the coach with whom you signed leaves, you sit.  The power conference schools want the changes so they can poach even more than they are doing now.

I don't have a problem with poaching.

[MU82]

Wait ... UWM still has a basketball team?

[Mr. Nielsen]

Wait ... UWM still has a basketball team?

Beat Iowa State and Loyola last year. 
That was about it for a highlight moment.

[HutchwasClutch]

Jordan and Baldwin both walked into a total mess thanks to the AD who was going to fire Jeter no matter how many players, and major boosters of the program she alienated in the process.    That's at least a 5 year rebuild. 

Baldwin did pretty well all in all his first year, a game below .500 overall, middle of the pack in conference, wins at IA St and over Loyola as mentioned, and a conference tournament win.  All of these guys transferring out weren't his guys.  There's a stigma over that program thanks to A. Braun that's going to take a couple years to blow over, which I think explains this massive roster turnover.

I'm not sure I get why not hiring TJO is considered a mistake already?!  They needed an unexpected run just to get in the 2017 tournament, and were a 16 seed.   Night and day difference between program he inherited and what Baldwin took over.   Maybe TJO will be great and Baldwin not so much, but verdict is out on both still running their own show.   But encouraging signs out of UWM last year for a guy hired in June and inheriting an 11 win team (and a tournament run to get to 11!)

[HutchwasClutch]

The current players' comments sure do make it sound like it's probably an issue with Baldwin.  Wonder if Todd Townsend will be their HC by this time next year?

What I read about these last three said nothing of the sort.  They cited wanting to move up and play at high D-1 level, and overall instability of program as the major factors, but they all said they were leaving on good terms with Baldwin.  Nze mentioned about just getting out of WI period.  Maybe I missed something with the first two. 

But again, really believe that program just has a stigma over it now.  The whole Jeter situation was a total debacle created by an idiot AD and it's really hard getting it on track again after that and then Jordan leaving for Butler last summer after only one year (who can blame him?)

[oldwarrior81]

didn't the AD offer the job to TJ?   He went back to Iowa to bring his family to the Thursday press conference to announce him as head coach.

Then the Chancellor holds a press conference on Wednesday and announces Jordan as the next coach.

[HutchwasClutch]

didn't the AD offer the job to TJ?   He went back to Iowa to bring his family to the Thursday press conference to announce him as head coach.

Then the Chancellor holds a press conference on Wednesday and announces Jordan as the next coach.

Think that is correct as I recall it, rug was pulled out from under him very late. 

[Jay Bee]

I bet you don’t want college athletes to be paid, so why should these particular students who receive a scholarship be bound to a university no matter what, while another non athlete who’s given a scholarship at the same institution is free to transfer whenever they like?

What? They shouldn't be bound no matter what. They simply should need to sit out a year in residence. They still can and generally do receive scholarships. Stop making up lies!

[panda]

What? They shouldn't be bound no matter what. They simply should need to sit out a year in residence. They still can and generally do receive scholarships. Stop making up lies!

Let me rephrase - What other student is withheld from extracurricular activities for one year if they transfer from one university to another?

[Galway Eagle]

Let me rephrase - What other student is withheld from extracurricular activities for one year if they transfer from one university to another?

Are they withheld from extracurricular activities? I mean yeah basketball but could they join clubs or organizations during that year if they wanted?

[GGGG]

Think that is correct as I recall it, rug was pulled out from under him very late. 

Then why is Braun the problem and not Mone?

[WarriorDad]

Well chicos you surely know the coach, AD, president or quite possibly all three.  Please expound on what the article doesnt already tell us.

Well chicos, I surely don't know the coach, AD, president or any of the three.  I do, however, follow Todd Rosiak and have for a long time since he was the beat writer for Marquette.  Rosiak had the story and I relayed it here.

It should have been in the Superbar.  Is it possible for a user to move it or does the moderator need to perform that action?

[MU82]

Wait ... UWM still has a university?

[Jay Bee]

Let me rephrase - What other student is withheld from extracurricular activities for one year if they transfer from one university to another?

What? These kids are being given a full ride+. smh

[GOO]

Are they withheld from extracurricular activities? I mean yeah basketball but could they join clubs or organizations during that year if they wanted?

What other students have hundred of thousands of dollars poured into their extracurricular development while receiving a totally free ride?

[GB Warrior]

What other students have hundred of thousands of dollars poured into their extracurricular development while receiving a totally free ride?

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

[panda]

What? These kids are being given a full ride+. smh

So the value of the scholarship means they should be stripped of rights every other one of their student peers have? Makes a ton of sense….

[Oldgym]

Well done, GB.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

So the value of the scholarship means they should be stripped of rights every other one of their student peers have? Makes a ton of sense….

No, the privileges and perks of their scholarship come with some trade offs.

[GOO]

So the value of the scholarship means they should be stripped of rights every other one of their student peers have? Makes a ton of sense….

Yes, if they choose to take the scholarship and all that comes with it... no one is forcing them to play college basketball at the D1 level.  But, doing so means that schools make a major financial commitment to the student-athlete, unlike any other student on scholarship. 

What is the cost that a school like MU spends per basketball player per year on room, board, tuition, and coaching/training, etc?  Let me make a wild guess and say 400K+.  That kind of commitment comes with trade offs.  If the student transfers, they still can get a scholarship at the new school immediately, but they can't play their sport for a year.  Really not that big of a "stripping of rights" based upon the financial commitment by the school, in my opinion.  But, obviously others differ with me.

[Gato78]

Add to that $400,000 number the fact that is after tax. You and I would have to earn a lot of money--more than $500,000 to be on level footing if that number is correct. Add to that many leave college with accumulated debt so interest over several years has to be added to be equal and paid with after tax money--though there can be a deduction for interest. I have a nephew who left a private college with about $90,000 in debt. He "worked it off" under the reverse GI Bill--put it on the line with the US Army in Afghanistan. We as sports fans have to recognize the significant value that high D1 athletes gain with a 4 or 5 year scholarship with room, board, books, laundry money, shoes, gear etc. It is a really good deal.

[GGGG]

Add to that $400,000 number the fact that is after tax. You and I would have to earn a lot of money--more than $500,000 to be on level footing if that number is correct. Add to that many leave college with accumulated debt so interest over several years has to be added to be equal and paid with after tax money--though there can be a deduction for interest. I have a nephew who left a private college with about $90,000 in debt. He "worked it off" under the reverse GI Bill--put it on the line with the US Army in Afghanistan. We as sports fans have to recognize the significant value that high D1 athletes gain with a 4 or 5 year scholarship with room, board, books, laundry money, shoes, gear etc. It is a really good deal.

Yet the marketplace determines that it still isn't sufficient.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Yet the marketplace determines that it still isn't sufficient.

Is it the marketplace or the secondary gray market?  I think the problem is the latter.

It seems that agents, shoe companies, parents, financial managers, handlers, coaches, hangers on, strippers, etc. are also cashing in.  See FBI.

[GGGG]

Is it the marketplace or the secondary gray market?  I think the problem is the latter.

It seems that agents, shoe companies, parents, financial managers, handlers, coaches, hangers on, strippers, etc. are also cashing in.  See FBI.

Yeah but the entire reason the gray market exists is because of the value of the player.

As with most underground economies, many of these issues would be solved if transactions were above board and regulated.  For instance, allow players to be compensated for their likeness under the oversight of licensed agents.  Perhaps the bulk of the compensation can be placed into trust and only accessed after the student leaves college.

The continued dedication to amateurism is simply trying to stuff the genie back in the box.  The economics indicate that this just isn't going to work.  This is exactly why the Olympics moved away from this model.  Its the exact reason that Prohibition was repealed. 

[Galway Eagle]

Yeah but the entire reason the gray market exists is because of the value of the player.

As with most underground economies, many of these issues would be solved if transactions were above board and regulated.  For instance, allow players to be compensated for their likeness under the oversight of licensed agents.  Perhaps the bulk of the compensation can be placed into trust and only accessed after the student leaves college.

The continued dedication to amateurism is simply trying to stuff the genie back in the box.  The economics indicate that this just isn't going to work.  This is exactly why the Olympics moved away from this model.  Its the exact reason that Prohibition was repealed.

Most Olympic boxers are still amateurs

[Jay Bee]

So the value of the scholarship means they should be stripped of rights every other one of their student peers have? Makes a ton of sense….

This isn't reality. Stop making up lies.

[WarriorDad]

So the value of the scholarship means they should be stripped of rights every other one of their student peers have? Makes a ton of sense….

What rights have been stripped from them?  Second question, when do we start to give 4 year future job tryouts 30 times a year on TV and to large arenas for the history, political science, business, arts, music, and other students?  Are they being short changed because of all the benefits basketball players receive? 

The value of the scholarship, the value of the connections they make, the value of the audition each game brings to their future is, in a word, invaluable.  Something their student peers do not receive at all.

[Babybluejeans]

The value of the scholarship, the value of the connections they make, the value of the audition each game brings to their future is, in a word, invaluable.  Something their student peers do not receive at all.

This is not correct. Professional basketball and football are among the few areas of modern life that operate as a true meritocracy - if you have the ability to play, there's a spot for you. Connections, "auditions," etc. are incredibly valuable outside the scope of sports, but mean very little within them (there may be some exceptions, but they're few) because if you're talented enough, you'll have the opportunity. 

So to say that scholarships are "invaluable" on that basis is misguided. And even if what you say is true, athletes' "student peers" do not endow schools with the opportunity for tremendous amounts of money and exposure the way football and basketball players do. Look, Cheeks, we know where you stand on this issue. You've certainly been...consistent about that. But comparing major-sport athletes with their peer students is not how to prove it.

[WarriorDad]

This is not correct. Professional basketball and football are among the few areas of modern life that operate as a true meritocracy - if you have the ability to play, there's a spot for you. Connections, "auditions," etc. are incredibly valuable outside the scope of sports, but mean very little within them (there may be some exceptions, but they're few) because if you're talented enough, you'll have the opportunity. 

So to say that scholarships are "invaluable" on that basis is misguided. And even if what you say is true, athletes' "student peers" do not endow schools with the opportunity for tremendous amounts of money and exposure the way football and basketball players do. Look, Cheeks, we know where you stand on this issue. You've certainly been...consistent about that. But comparing major-sport athletes with their peer students is not how to prove it.

Why isn't Mr. Kapernick playing then?  He should be playing and it makes me ill he isn't.  Where is the meritocracy there?  The connections these athletes and coaches provide IN SPORTS, not just outside is something you are selling far short.  Most coaches played their sport and are able to use those connections to stay in the game.  Players that don't make it to the G League or NBA, rely on connections to be picked up overseas.  Those are in sport connections, not out of sports.

Most programs don't make tremendous amounts of money, especially in college basketball.  The money they do make is used to pay for other sports and keep their athletic departments open to provide opportunities for other students. 

[UNC Eagle]

Let me rephrase - What other student is withheld from extracurricular activities for one year if they transfer from one university to another?

The transfer rule represents a reasonable qui pro quo . A student is given an athletic scholarship and the coach has a reasonable expectation that the student will honor his/her end of the deal and stay and compete. That student athlete took the place of some other student athlete who could have filled that spot. Recognizing that things don't always work out a reasonable compromise of sitting out one year was instituted to discourage transferring the first time a student athlete encounters some difficultly. In addition the notion of sitting out the year, gives the student athlete the best chance to make the best of his/her opportunity at the new school.Division 1 athletics are not an easy thing for these kids and the ability to take a year off work out and get on the same page with new teammates and coaches is very valuable. 

The logic behind the grad transfer being eligible immediately also is based in the same theory. The student athlete at that point has fulfilled their obligation and then can move on as they see fit.
e
 

[brewcity77]

When the school can rescind the scholarship at any time and the coach can leave at any time, it really exposes a bit of hypocrisy in that year in residence rule. I love the idea that the player "owes" something to the school. As though the schools aren't fighting tooth and nail to land commitments and don't feel grateful when players say yes.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well we are going to see a lot more of one of these guys. Bryce Nze is heading to Butler. Solid pickup for the Bulldogs. Makes a lot of sense given the coaching situation.

[Jay Bee]

Well we are going to see a lot more of one of these guys. Bryce Nze is heading to Butler. Solid pickup for the Bulldogs. Makes a lot of sense given the coaching situation.

IIRC he played up some the year with Nick N. and Henry for WI PGE in the EYBL... looked the part, rebounding ability was evident.

..then the next year - 2015 - he played many minutes along with Kostandinos... rebounded very well there, and has in college. Glad to see him getting a chance in the BEast.

[Billy Hoyle]

IIRC he played up some the year with Nick N. and Henry for WI PGE in the EYBL... looked the part, rebounding ability was evident.

whatever happened to Nick Noskowiak?

[Galway Eagle]

whatever happened to Nick Noskowiak?

http://www.region9athletics.com/sports/mbkb/south/2017-18/players/nicknoskowiak4a2g?view=gamelog&pos=sh

[rocket surgeon]

http://www.region9athletics.com/sports/mbkb/south/2017-18/players/nicknoskowiak4a2g?view=gamelog&pos=sh

  looks like something happened at or around nov. 21 as that is where his stats end.   i wish him well