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Author Topic: Rowsey at the P.I.T.  (Read 6597 times)

Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2018, 10:42:24 AM »
So you think Rowsey is a better defender than Arcidiacono? For someone who pretends to be the smartest basketball mind on Scoop...yikes.

One guy was a Big East POY. The other was an Honorable Mention All BE player. Now not only does Ners know better than Bazz and Wojo, but also every BE coach.

Well one player played under Wojo, and the other Jay Wright, surrounded by athletic, physical studs.

But yes, Ryan A, a better defender - Rowsey a much better offensive player - by a long shot.

Wonder what Value Add numbers would say?

tower912

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2018, 10:54:14 AM »
Good for Andrew.  I hope the exposure helps him find work next year.
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wadesworld

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2018, 10:55:16 AM »
Well one player played under Wojo, and the other Jay Wright, surrounded by athletic, physical studs.

But yes, Ryan A, a better defender - Rowsey a much better offensive player - by a long shot.

Wonder what Value Add numbers would say?

What does who he played for have anything to do with where he finished in BE awards? Interesting response.

And so when you said that Arci had “height on Rowsey and nothing else,” you didn’t actually mean he had nothing but height on Rowsey? Odd.

Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2018, 11:09:33 AM »
What does who he played for have anything to do with where he finished in BE awards? Interesting response.

And so when you said that Arci had “height on Rowsey and nothing else,” you didn’t actually mean he had nothing but height on Rowsey? Odd.

Playing for a guy who can actually coach, does make a difference.  Furthermore, being surrounded by studs, who can play and are physical enough to compete at Big East highest level matters. 

And yes, what Ryan A has over Rowsey was size, and of course the above mentioned better surrounding cast and coach.

brewcity77

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2018, 11:22:28 AM »
And Rowsey blew away Ryan Acridiacano's numbers as seniors.  To say Ryan A was a much better player is just stupid.  What Ryan A has over Rowsey is height.  Nothing more.  And not nearly the shooter.

Hmm...interesting take. Let's explore that theory.

Senior offensive efficiency: Arcidiacono 119.9 / Rowsey 118.3 Advantage Arcidiacono
Senior eFG%: Arcidiacono 54.7% / Rowsey 54.6% Advantage Arcidiacono
Assist Rate: Arcidiacono 24.1% / Rowsey 28.6% Advantage Rowsey
Turnover Rate: Arcidiacono 14.1% / Rowsey 16.4% Advantage Arcidiacono
2PFG%: Arcidiacono 50.0% / Rowsey 42.8% Advantage Arcidiacono
3PFG%: Arcidiacono 39.4% / Rowsey 41.5% Advantage Rowsey

Now granted, Rowsey had much higher usage, but it's pretty clear that Arcidiacono was actually slightly better as a shooter based on his vastly superior 2PFG% that led to an advantage in eFG%. He was more efficient overall because he also turned it over less frequently. I was surprised how close the 3PFG% was. Archie's assist rate was a bit lower than I'd have expected, but I suspect that's because he was playing alongside Brunson and Booth who also had pretty respectable assist rates.

At the end of the day, higher efficiency indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better offensive player and higher eFG% indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better shooter in their senior years. The only real advantage for Rowsey was his usage rate which led to the higher scoring totals, but when you couple in Arcidiacono's significantly better defense, it's hard to argue Rowsey as a better player by almost any metric.

wadesworld

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2018, 11:28:30 AM »
Playing for a guy who can actually coach, does make a difference.  Furthermore, being surrounded by studs, who can play and are physical enough to compete at Big East highest level matters. 

And yes, what Ryan A has over Rowsey was size, and of course the above mentioned better surrounding cast and coach.

So how did Shamorie Ponds make First Team All Big East?

Arci was BE POY, the starting point guard for a National Champion, and the guy Jay Wright attributes for helping to set the culture of a 2 time National Champion program in the past 3 years. Rowsey was the second or third best player on the seventh best team in the BE.

Nukem2

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2018, 11:29:39 AM »
Hmm...interesting take. Let's explore that theory.

Senior offensive efficiency: Arcidiacono 119.9 / Rowsey 118.3 Advantage Arcidiacono
Senior eFG%: Arcidiacono 54.7% / Rowsey 54.6% Advantage Arcidiacono
Assist Rate: Arcidiacono 24.1% / Rowsey 28.6% Advantage Rowsey
Turnover Rate: Arcidiacono 14.1% / Rowsey 16.4% Advantage Arcidiacono
2PFG%: Arcidiacono 50.0% / Rowsey 42.8% Advantage Arcidiacono
3PFG%: Arcidiacono 39.4% / Rowsey 41.5% Advantage Rowsey

Now granted, Rowsey had much higher usage, but it's pretty clear that Arcidiacono was actually slightly better as a shooter based on his vastly superior 2PFG% that led to an advantage in eFG%. He was more efficient overall because he also turned it over less frequently. I was surprised how close the 3PFG% was. Archie's assist rate was a bit lower than I'd have expected, but I suspect that's because he was playing alongside Brunson and Booth who also had pretty respectable assist rates.

At the end of the day, higher efficiency indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better offensive player and higher eFG% indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better shooter in their senior years. The only real advantage for Rowsey was his usage rate which led to the higher scoring totals, but when you couple in Arcidiacono's significantly better defense, it's hard to argue Rowsey as a better player by almost any metric.
Arcidiacono was also a much better defender.  If I were to pick one, it would easily be Archie. 

Sultan of South Wayne

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2018, 11:38:02 AM »
Hmm...interesting take. Let's explore that theory.

Senior offensive efficiency: Arcidiacono 119.9 / Rowsey 118.3 Advantage Arcidiacono
Senior eFG%: Arcidiacono 54.7% / Rowsey 54.6% Advantage Arcidiacono
Assist Rate: Arcidiacono 24.1% / Rowsey 28.6% Advantage Rowsey
Turnover Rate: Arcidiacono 14.1% / Rowsey 16.4% Advantage Arcidiacono
2PFG%: Arcidiacono 50.0% / Rowsey 42.8% Advantage Arcidiacono
3PFG%: Arcidiacono 39.4% / Rowsey 41.5% Advantage Rowsey

Now granted, Rowsey had much higher usage, but it's pretty clear that Arcidiacono was actually slightly better as a shooter based on his vastly superior 2PFG% that led to an advantage in eFG%. He was more efficient overall because he also turned it over less frequently. I was surprised how close the 3PFG% was. Archie's assist rate was a bit lower than I'd have expected, but I suspect that's because he was playing alongside Brunson and Booth who also had pretty respectable assist rates.

At the end of the day, higher efficiency indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better offensive player and higher eFG% indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better shooter in their senior years. The only real advantage for Rowsey was his usage rate which led to the higher scoring totals, but when you couple in Arcidiacono's significantly better defense, it's hard to argue Rowsey as a better player by almost any metric.


You'd think after years of posts like these that I would tire of them and Ners would learn from them.

But I don't and he doesn't.  Which is fun!
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Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2018, 12:05:36 PM »
Hmm...interesting take. Let's explore that theory.

Senior offensive efficiency: Arcidiacono 119.9 / Rowsey 118.3 Advantage Arcidiacono
Senior eFG%: Arcidiacono 54.7% / Rowsey 54.6% Advantage Arcidiacono
Assist Rate: Arcidiacono 24.1% / Rowsey 28.6% Advantage Rowsey
Turnover Rate: Arcidiacono 14.1% / Rowsey 16.4% Advantage Arcidiacono
2PFG%: Arcidiacono 50.0% / Rowsey 42.8% Advantage Arcidiacono
3PFG%: Arcidiacono 39.4% / Rowsey 41.5% Advantage Rowsey

Now granted, Rowsey had much higher usage, but it's pretty clear that Arcidiacono was actually slightly better as a shooter based on his vastly superior 2PFG% that led to an advantage in eFG%. He was more efficient overall because he also turned it over less frequently. I was surprised how close the 3PFG% was. Archie's assist rate was a bit lower than I'd have expected, but I suspect that's because he was playing alongside Brunson and Booth who also had pretty respectable assist rates.

At the end of the day, higher efficiency indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better offensive player and higher eFG% indicates Arcidiacono was a slightly better shooter in their senior years. The only real advantage for Rowsey was his usage rate which led to the higher scoring totals, but when you couple in Arcidiacono's significantly better defense, it's hard to argue Rowsey as a better player by almost any metric.

A 10% differential is usage rate is HUGE. Rowsey’s Free Throw Rate 10% higher.

I know you know better than to try to minimize a 10% usage differential.

Sultan made another dumb blanket statement. Suggesting Ryan A, with a much better coach and supporting cast, was better than Rowsey despite a 10 percent less usage..and inability to put up better stats than Rowsey is..stupid.


TAMU Eagle

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2018, 12:08:48 PM »
On offense I would take Rowdy over Archie.

As a total basketball player I would take Archie.

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brewcity77

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2018, 12:16:59 PM »
A 10% differential is usage rate is HUGE. Rowsey’s Free Throw Rate 10% higher.

I know you know better than to try to minimize a 10% usage differential.

Sultan made another dumb blanket statement. Suggesting Ryan A, with a much better coach and supporting cast, was better than Rowsey despite a 10 percent less usage..and inability to put up better stats than Rowsey is..stupid.

Rowsey also played marginally more minutes, but it was about equal. The usage explains why Rowsey scored more. Strictly on offense, I'd still take Rowsey despite Archie shooting the ball better (which you either lied or were ignorant of) but there is no question whatsoever that Arcidiacono was a far, far better overall player. Vastly superior overall player. That I can even make a salient argument that Arcidiacono was a comparable offensive player (which his efficiency and eFG% in comparable minutes would indicate) is an indicator of how much better a player Archie was, because on the other end, Archie was good and Rowsey was virtually non-existent.

Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2018, 02:16:16 PM »
Rowsey also played marginally more minutes, but it was about equal. The usage explains why Rowsey scored more. Strictly on offense, I'd still take Rowsey despite Archie shooting the ball better (which you either lied or were ignorant of) but there is no question whatsoever that Arcidiacono was a far, far better overall player. Vastly superior overall player. That I can even make a salient argument that Arcidiacono was a comparable offensive player (which his efficiency and eFG% in comparable minutes would indicate) is an indicator of how much better a player Archie was, because on the other end, Archie was good and Rowsey was virtually non-existent.

If Archie shooting the ball "better" based on a .01% advantage over Rowsey, while having a 10% lower usage and shot percentage is what you base your "salient" point off of them being comparable offensive players..well..knock yourself out.

You of all people know that increased usage leads to reduced efficiency.

Hell by virtue of your argument, Sam Hauser should have been Big East POY as he had similar usage and same shots percentage of Ryan A and a much better O-Rating...

Usage matters.  Take Ryan A up to 30% usage and his eFG numbers would fall off markedly.  And he was surrounded by much better talent at Nova.

Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2018, 02:35:14 PM »
Please do. Don’t recall any prediction about 4 years down the road but I’d love to see it.

I'll spend a bit more time and find your specific post out of 9,860 talking about Sweet 16s under Wojo come Year 4, but here is a gem from January 1, 2015:



Take It To The Bank
« on: January 01, 2015, 06:22:46 PM »
Quote
A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.

Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.

This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.

R-E-L-A-X

wadesworld

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2018, 02:51:09 PM »
I'll spend a bit more time and find your specific post out of 9,860 talking about Sweet 16s under Wojo come Year 4, but here is a gem from January 1, 2015:



Take It To The Bank
« on: January 01, 2015, 06:22:46 PM »
Quote
A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.

Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.

This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.

R-E-L-A-X

So what you’re saying is you made up your story? Got it. Thanks for confirming.

I’d say the results confirmed we were closer to Duke than the 13-19 first year record Wojo had due to an entirely bare cupboard Bazz left. So again, thanks for providing a quote that has nothing to do with what you claim I said. 2 years after that quote, which was coming off of a 13-19 season, we were an NCAA Tournament team losing to the same opponent Duke lost to a whopping one round earlier than Duke lost to them. So, that checks out. Appreciate it!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 03:07:16 PM by wadesworld »

brewcity77

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2018, 05:36:46 PM »
If Archie shooting the ball "better" based on a .01% advantage over Rowsey, while having a 10% lower usage and shot percentage is what you base your "salient" point off of them being comparable offensive players..well..knock yourself out.

You of all people know that increased usage leads to reduced efficiency.

Yes, but you made the same kind of stupid, over-the-top statement you always do without the benefit of actual accurate facts:

And Rowsey blew away Ryan Acridiacano's numbers as seniors.  To say Ryan A was a much better player is just stupid.  What Ryan A has over Rowsey is height.  Nothing more.  And not nearly the shooter.

You can't honestly say he blew him away when they played comparable minutes and Arcidiacono had a higher efficiency and eFG%. Yes, Rowsey had better raw numbers due to his usage, but when you look at their advanced numbers, they are very similar. I do believe Rowsey was a better offensive player. I'd probably say that at the position, Rowsey was a 9/10 and Arcidiacono was an 8/10. Was Rowey better? Sure. But he didn't blow the doors off Archie and saying "not nearly the shooter" when Archie edged him in eFG% and destroyed him in 2PFG% is just silly.

Hell by virtue of your argument, Sam Hauser should have been Big East POY as he had similar usage and same shots percentage of Ryan A and a much better O-Rating...

POY? No. That's not even really an argument because you have to consider the year they played, not simply the statistical comparison. Brunson's comparable efficiency with higher usage made him the clear POY both in the league and nationally. However, I do think that Hauser got the shaft. I'd argue he was our MVP and at worst should've been second team All-Big East (and I think there's a good argument for first team ahead of Ponds).

Usage matters.  Take Ryan A up to 30% usage and his eFG numbers would fall off markedly.  And he was surrounded by much better talent at Nova.

It does, but acting like Arcidiacono wasn't a good shooter and wasn't a high-efficiency player as a senior is simply disingenuous. And acting like the 5 inches he has on Rowsey and the clear defensive superiority isn't important is simply ridiculous. Let's not forget that part of the reason his usage was so low was for that exact reason of the better talent around him.

Part of catching on in the NBA is understanding a role and fitting in with better talent around you. Especially when you project as an end-of-the-roster player. Arcidiacono proved he could do that at Villanova when he thrived in a role while being surrounded by guys like Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, Brunson, and Ochefu. Can Rowsey do the same? It's tough to say, because he's never had to do it.

source?

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2018, 05:36:52 PM »
I'll spend a bit more time and find your specific post out of 9,860 talking about Sweet 16s under Wojo come Year 4, but here is a gem from January 1, 2015:



Take It To The Bank
« on: January 01, 2015, 06:22:46 PM »
Quote
A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.

Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.

This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.

R-E-L-A-X


Looks pretty spot on to me. Marquette in 2015 Kenpom was 93, in 2017 we were 32 and Duke was 14.


Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2018, 08:15:33 PM »



Looks pretty spot on to me. Marquette in 2015 Kenpom was 93, in 2017 we were 32 and Duke was 14.

So what happened this year once we got "all of Wojo's own players" that were going to lead us to Al like years?  That finished 53 in Pomeroy - closer to Buzz's throw in the towel last season finishing 68th?  Far cry from Duke finishing 3 in Pomeroy this year.

That master plan 1st recruiting class sure paid dividends...glad we still have Sacar.  I've loved watching the transformation of this program to where the Wojo fanboys are drooling over NIT Sweet 16s.  It's been awesome.




wadesworld

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2018, 08:39:00 PM »
So what happened this year once we got "all of Wojo's own players" that were going to lead us to Al like years?  That finished 53 in Pomeroy - closer to Buzz's throw in the towel last season finishing 68th?  Far cry from Duke finishing 3 in Pomeroy this year.

That master plan 1st recruiting class sure paid dividends...glad we still have Sacar.  I've loved watching the transformation of this program to where the Wojo fanboys are drooling over NIT Sweet 16s.  It's been awesome.

Who’s drooling over that? You imagine you read a lot of things that were not said. Still waiting on that quote you promised from me saying a S16 in year 4.

Sultan of South Wayne

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2018, 08:43:10 PM »
Who’s drooling over that? You imagine you read a lot of things that were not said. Still waiting on that quote you promised from me saying a S16 in year 4.

Ners is an expert at shifting goalposts.  He does it constantly.
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TSmith34

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2018, 07:39:30 AM »
You all are arguing with Ners.  To say it's a pointless endeavor is a vast understatement.
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KampusFoods

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2018, 08:16:11 AM »


So what you’re saying is you made up your story? Got it. Thanks for confirming.

I’d say the results confirmed we were closer to Duke than the 13-19 first year record Wojo had due to an entirely bare cupboard Bazz left. So again, thanks for providing a quote that has nothing to do with what you claim I said. 2 years after that quote, which was coming off of a 13-19 season, we were an NCAA Tournament team losing to the same opponent Duke lost to a whopping one round earlier than Duke lost to them. So, that checks out. Appreciate it!

Drink

Loose Cannon

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2018, 09:19:17 AM »
You all are arguing with Ners.  To say it's a pointless endeavor is a vast understatement.

Yeah, he sure likes to Fish.
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Floorslapper

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2018, 09:59:09 AM »
Who’s drooling over that? You imagine you read a lot of things that were not said. Still waiting on that quote you promised from me saying a S16 in year 4.

You assured us after Year 1 of the Wojo regime it was going to be "transformational" and a joy to watch. Perhaps rivaling the 70s?  Since things seem to be following plan in your eyes, apparently you feel watching the team get to the NIT Sweet 16 is a joy to watch. 

Jay Bee

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2018, 10:54:25 AM »
NIT Sweet 16 is a joy to watch.

#Lies
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Newsdreams

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Re: Rowsey at the P.I.T.
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2018, 12:00:11 PM »
#Lies
#Elite8
He'll find a way to make it sweet 16