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Author Topic: Why do we foul so much?  (Read 2536 times)

muwarrior69

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Why do we foul so much?
« on: March 21, 2018, 06:05:56 PM »
I don't recall an MU team that fouled so much. Is it our lack of athleticism. Do we not know how to box out? Is that why we play poor defense so we avoid contact or being physical? It seems like we always got the short end of the 50/50 calls (perhaps to my blue n gold eyes). Is there a way to fix this?

Stretchdeltsig

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 05:08:00 AM »
The officiating is generally terrible and very inconsistent.  It's a shame that the Refs really control the games and too greatly influence the outcomes.  There are way too many picky picky fouls called.

THRILLHO

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 05:41:52 AM »
I don't recall an MU team that fouled so much. Is it our lack of athleticism. Do we not know how to box out? Is that why we play poor defense so we avoid contact or being physical? It seems like we always got the short end of the 50/50 calls (perhaps to my blue n gold eyes). Is there a way to fix this?

I'm not a basketball expert but to me it looks like it's because nobody on the perimeter could stay in front of their man. Once they get into the lane help defense tries to either block the shot or strip steal and both lead to more obvious contact for refs to call.

D'Lo Brown

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 07:31:24 AM »
I don't recall an MU team that fouled so much. Is it our lack of athleticism. Do we not know how to box out? Is that why we play poor defense so we avoid contact or being physical? It seems like we always got the short end of the 50/50 calls (perhaps to my blue n gold eyes). Is there a way to fix this?

Not really a counterargument, more of the other side of the same coin. I don't think we do a good job at all of creating fouls and getting to the line. A lot of this had to do with being a jump shooting team, having only 1 true slasher (Sacar), and a lack of nuanced physical play down low on offense.

It seemed to me that Andrew and Markus were the main players looking to draw contact/fouls. Andrew was much more successful because of the quickness and explosion of "the thing" whereas I thought Markus was a little more slow/deliberate/obvious and perhaps didn't get the benefit of as many calls. TBH it didn't seem to come easily to him and I think he's still working it into his game, as it seemed he was trying much harder to draw fouls as the season went on. But I could have just not been paying attention early on.

An offseason for a lot of these young guys (especially Theo and Markus) should help. Theo could be an absolute monster if he exploits some of his athleticism/explosiveness, maybe more face-to-the-basket attempts as well. His free throw shooting seemingly has got to get even better, although it was much improved as the season wore on.

Markus should also focus on specific plays where he can draw fouls because (as the best FT shooter in the league) he needs to get to the line as much as possible. If he could work in a thing and a couple other quick/explosive moves it would help.

I also wonder about Morrow's play and his contributions here. I will leave that to others who know far more about him than I do.

CTWarrior

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 07:31:42 AM »
The officiating is generally terrible and very inconsistent.  It's a shame that the Refs really control the games and too greatly influence the outcomes.  There are way too many picky picky fouls called.

I've noticed it in the NCAA tournament.  In many games it seems that in the second half anybody driving to the hoop can just be counted on to draw a foul for the tiniest most incidental contact unless there is a charge-happy ref.  The shaky officiating becomes more noticeable when you watch game after game after game in the tournament format.

But that doesn't explain why we foul more often than do our opponents.  Part of it is that we are jump shooting team and there is no need to foul our big people to keep them from scoring so we don't draw as many fouls.  But mostly we foul a lot because we get beat off the dribble constantly and are therefore late to establish position.

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Benny B

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 09:52:34 AM »
When you fall behind the man you're guarding on defense, one of two things typically happens:

1) When contesting a shot, you often end up making contact on the body because you're out of position (which is a foul), or

2) You make clean contact, but because you're out of position, it creates the illusion of a foul.

There were too many times this season where the contact/foul was obscured, and yet the referee blew the whistle anyway.

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f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 10:20:05 AM »
If you look at the team as a whole, and there are exceptions to this (Sacar), the first defensive move was to lean instead of moving feet to stay in front of the ball handler/rebounder.  This was a consistent issue all year and why we: 1) got beat off the dribble darn near every game; 2) were so frequently out rebounded, and; 3) had so many fouls. 

Someone mentioned a lack of talent but I would have to disagree. Defense is about effort and commitment.  In my opinion, there were people who got meaningful minutes who had no interest in defense.  With no consequences, an "offense first" attitude spread to the rest of the team.  MU players stood and watched opponents shoot jump shots over them without even jumping to contest the shot.  We stood flat-footed as rebound after rebound went to the other team.  We did not dive for loose balls.  That's all effort stuff.

I put that entirely on Wojo and the staff.  This many years in, that scares me...

skianth16

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 10:26:30 AM »
Wait, there are really people who think we get so many fouls called on us simply because refs are bad or don't like us? Come on, the refs aren't the best in the NCAA, but when the same things happen every game, you know it's the team and not the refs.

We foul a lot because we're bad at defense. If our guys could stay between their man and the hoop, then we wouldn't end up fouling as much, and we would give up fewer points.

brewcity77

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 10:33:39 AM »
We foul a lot because we're bad at defense. If our guys could stay between their man and the hoop, then we wouldn't end up fouling as much, and we would give up fewer points.

We don't always agree, but I think you're on to something here. Our players are a step slow on defense and the constant switches and hedging further leads to guys being out of position or caught in bad matchups. In that case, the only way to stop a shot is to foul.

I think there's some validity to the inconsistent reffing, but it's because of the reputation we have as a team. Poor defense leads to refs expecting fouls. On the other end, our guys (often Markus) trying desperately to avoid contact leads to fouls not being called even when they are there.

A poor defense and questionable scheme leads to foul trouble, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that we rarely get the benefit of the doubt because we never earned it in the first place.
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NickelDimer

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 10:33:48 AM »
We ended up chasing way too much on defense because we couldn’t stay in front. This also messes up rotations which leads to more chasing and fouling. 90+% of our defensive issues were our guards inability to stop penetration and guard P&R
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MU82

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 10:46:04 AM »
When you fall behind the man you're guarding on defense, one of two things typically happens:

1) When contesting a shot, you often end up making contact on the body because you're out of position (which is a foul), or

2) You make clean contact, but because you're out of position, it creates the illusion of a foul.

There were too many times this season where the contact/foul was obscured, and yet the referee blew the whistle anyway.

This. Plus ...

3) After you're beat, a teammate has to cover for you, and he is often a big who then makes contact with the player who has driven to the hoop.

Bottom line: We are fundamentally poor at 1-on-1 defense. I consider this the biggest weakness of Wojo and his assistants, the inability to either correct this in the players we have or recruit players who are less likely to be so fundamentally flawed on defensive skills. It does appear that the 2017 class was a step to address this in some ways.

Whether we play man or zone, our perimeter defense and ball pressure needs to get a lot better next season, IMHO.
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Floorslapper

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 11:23:07 AM »
Pretty simple answer.  Other than Sacar, the opposition at all positions was bigger, stronger, faster.  Which is why you don't choose M2M as your base defense and play it 95% of the year.

"Trailing" the possession in M2M D leads to high fouling rates. 

4everwarriors

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 12:38:58 PM »
'cause they bee reachin' and grabbin' wit der hands and knot movin' da feets, aina?
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79Warrior

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 01:51:03 PM »
Wait, there are really people who think we get so many fouls called on us simply because refs are bad or don't like us? Come on, the refs aren't the best in the NCAA, but when the same things happen every game, you know it's the team and not the refs.

We foul a lot because we're bad at defense. If our guys could stay between their man and the hoop, then we wouldn't end up fouling as much, and we would give up fewer points.

This.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 05:02:38 PM »
If it was because refs don't like MU or Wojo, the foul stats would be relatively constant from season to season. They aren't. According to Sports Reference, over the past four years MU's ranking in total fouls among D1 schools has gotten progressively and dramatically worse -- 327th, 191st, 159th, and finally 32nd this year. So in four years, we have gone from one of the lowest rates of fouling in D1 to one of the highest.

My conclusion is that it's probably mostly the personnel. If it was biased officiating or bad teaching, we would be consistently bad. But we weren't fouling all day when we had Juan, Duane, Jajuan and Derrick. 

To me, it's one of the big enigmas of Wojo's recruiting. He is getting great kids and certainly great shooters, but he can't seem to recruit defensive stoppers. Seems kinda strange given the type of player he was.

brewcity77

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2018, 05:59:54 PM »
When we had Juan and Derrick, we were also playing zone, which diminishes fouling.
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GooooMarquette

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2018, 06:22:20 PM »
When we had Juan and Derrick, we were also playing zone, which diminishes fouling.

That may be a contributing factor, but they were still better defenders than the guys we have today, and there has still been a strong trend in the three years since they graduated.

tower912

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Re: Why do we foul so much?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2018, 06:50:51 PM »
Physical strength.
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