20-7

[Marcus92]

And a single game out of 3rd place. Maybe an average team at best in the Big East right now, but not far from the Top 3 if we can improve a game or two.

[Goose]

Marcus

Butler played on a senior led team, that was top 15 in the country his first year at MU. Of course we only saw glimpses of the end product. Sam is played on a young, average team. If you think Sam has and will show similar upside that Butler did, we show retire his number today.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

Sam and Howard I absolutely see competing for first team All Big East.

Jamal I think has the potential but need to see him put it all together first. Would likely say that honorable mention is his ceiling.

Greg I don't, though if there was a Big East All Defensive team I could see him making that.

Theo no, but I think he can be a more serviceable big than many of the bigs that we have had on tournament teams.

Sacar no, but I could see him a good role player on a very good team.

Harry is just a no at this point.

[Galway Eagle]

Boxer

Hardly writing either guy off. They both will go down as very highly rated players in program history, simply by stats. If they have on court success, they will even be more highly rated.

As for Butler, he passed the eye test the first time I saw him play. That said, I would not have expected the ultimate end product being as good it was/is.

We have seen Howard and Sam play over sixty games and that is a pretty good sample size. To boot they have played at high level, making upside more difficult. If they end up showing great upside improvement over next two years, they likely would go down as very, very, very highly rated players in program history. I think that is expecting a lot.

And yet Jimmys ultimate end product in college turned out to be only Big East honorable mention. My only point is that you can't always say that we need some first team all big east players in order to have a real stud. Jimmy was highly efficient, clutch, and a defensive minded player but never amounted to that 1st team all BE "stud" if that's still the measure you're using.

[GooooMarquette]

Does anyone know what the injury is that Greg's been dealing with? How limiting has it been? Is it more the actual injury that is likely affecting his play, or the brace he has to wear?

I've seen it referred to as a "sprain," but if they're talking surgery, it's probably a torn tendon or ligament. As long it holds the thumb securely in place, the brace is probably the main issue.

[Goose]

Boxer

I sure as hell hope that Sam has similar rooster around him in two years. If he does, he can skip shooting for all BE honors and focus on being at E8 or better that season.

[Marcus92]

Marcus

Butler played on a senior led team, that was top 15 in the country his first year at MU. Of course we only saw glimpses of the end product. Sam is played on a young, average team. If you think Sam has and will show similar upside that Butler did, we show retire his number today.

Buzz Williams wasn't even initially convinced about Jimmy Butler. Buzz was focused on Joe Fulce, Jimmy's teammate at Tyler junior college. Joe said he wouldn't commit to MU unless Buzz offered Jimmy, as well.

I watched every game of Jimmy's career at Marquette. I saw a lot of potential his first year: the hustle, the rebounding, the toughness, the smart play. But he was content with his role, deferred to his teammates and almost never looked for his shot. He certainly wasn't the fearless "give me the ball and I'll rip their guts out" player who gave us so many exciting moments. Stepping up as a leader is improvement.

Not saying Sam will be as good as Jimmy. But he's highly skilled, smart, and perhaps most importantly, a true competitor who's always looking to improve. I think that mindset might be the single most important ingredient for future development.

[Goose]

Marcus

You forget to mention Sam's a good student. All you said is great and I hope you are right.

[Galway Eagle]

Boxer

I sure as hell hope that Sam has similar rooster around him in two years. If he does, he can skip shooting for all BE honors and focus on being at E8 or better that season.

Like a high scoring gaurd who's great behind the arc, a bruiser of a PF? I think Morrow can match Jae 2011 and Markus can match DJO 2011.

[tower912]

Would take a Cadougan at this point.

[Floorslapper]

It's pretty hard to argue they are anything above "average" for a major conference team.  7th out of 10 team conference, .500 in conference, rated 57th on Ken Pom.

That is an average, at best, major conference team.  Certainly not "good."

Some people have different standards for what constitutes "good."  Personally, I agree with you.  A good team is Top 30 caliber.  Not, Top 60.  Granted, the difference is not much, as Tower points out.

In my view we should have been a 30ish team this year, given the crazy good season turned in by Rowsey and Sam.  IF our D had just been ranked 100, we'd be a Top 30 team.  And, yes, we were capable of being a 100th in the country type of defense.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

People need to understand Rowsey for what he is... that is fools gold.  People look at losing 20 points a game and cannot imagine how he is replaced.  Now i understand he may not currently be on the roster, but in no way shape or form does Wojo need to find a 20 point a game scorer. 
Firstly, Andrew did not score 20 every game fir every 30 point game where he was big time for us he had absolute stinker games for us where he was exactly what we didnt need.  The at depaul and Harvard game are two perfect recent examples where our senior diasapeared, was in foul trouble, turned the ball over like a hot potato, took bad shots, and played horribale defense. 
His terrible defense also helped lead to dunks and layups by opposing players other than whom he was guarding, additionally his turnovers n matador defense led to foul issues n free throws.  I believe Rowsey needs to score 30 points a game and shoot well to be a positive for this team.  He scores 20, in the games like depaul n last night he was a tremendous burden to the team.  He had 14 points and 6 assits but no one felt he was a positive, like i said i think his number with all things included is about 30.  Even when hes not taking bad shots or turning it over his defense is soo bad the numbers is 30.
Therefore, Wojo doesnt need a 20 point a game scorer.  Someone who can come in and score 10+ a game, dribble with strength, run the offense and defensively chest bump and stay in front of the quality PGs that are in the BE and rebound his position will be a huge benefit to this team. 
I think a junior year Greg Elliott could do this but am not sure hes ready next year.
No way in hell can Howard do it.  We need a strong seasoned grad transfer or a top 75 type incoming Freshman, but i would be concerned with his youth.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sam and Howard I absolutely see competing for first team All Big East.

Jamal I think has the potential but need to see him put it all together first. Would likely say that honorable mention is his ceiling.

Greg I don't, though if there was a Big East All Defensive team I could see him making that.

Theo no, but I think he can be a more serviceable big than many of the bigs that we have had on tournament teams.

Sacar no, but I could see him a good role player on a very good team.

Harry is just a no at this point.

Elliott and Anim both look like the type of quality role players who see big minutes on very good teams. I could see Cain being a better-shooting Jamil Wilson - i.e. more than a role player but not a #1 or 2 guy.

Theo is interesting. I think he's better than you give him credit for. His production will likely be largely related to whether or not the guards actually get him the ball. As the season progressed, he showed better touch around the basket and even broke out a baby hook a few times. He moves well and finds open space, but needs a PG who can find him. I see him projecting as somewhere between Daniel Ochefu and Robert Jackson (with Angel Delgado as the pipe dream).

[tower912]

A Theo-type player on the Amigos' teams would have made a hell of a difference.     

[Floorslapper]

People need to understand Rowsey for what he is... that is fools gold.  People look at losing 20 points a game and cannot imagine how he is replaced.  Now i understand he may not currently be on the roster, but in no way shape or form does Wojo need to find a 20 point a game scorer. 
Firstly, Andrew did not score 20 every game fir every 30 point game where he was big time for us he had absolute stinker games for us where he was exactly what we didnt need.  The at depaul and Harvard game are two perfect recent examples where our senior diasapeared, was in foul trouble, turned the ball over like a hot potato, took bad shots, and played horribale defense. 
His terrible defense also helped lead to dunks and layups by opposing players other than whom he was guarding, additionally his turnovers n matador defense led to foul issues n free throws.  I believe Rowsey needs to score 30 points a game and shoot well to be a positive for this team.  He scores 20, in the games like depaul n last night he was a tremendous burden to the team.  He had 14 points and 6 assits but no one felt he was a positive, like i said i think his number with all things included is about 30.  Even when hes not taking bad shots or turning it over his defense is soo bad the numbers is 30.
Therefore, Wojo doesnt need a 20 point a game scorer.  Someone who can come in and score 10+ a game, dribble with strength, run the offense and defensively chest bump and stay in front of the quality PGs that are in the BE and rebound his position will be a huge benefit to this team. 
I think a junior year Greg Elliott could do this but am not sure hes ready next year.
No way in hell can Howard do it.  We need a strong seasoned grad transfer or a top 75 type incoming Freshman, but i would be concerned with his youth.

Your wrong dim knit.  Did you watch this team at all when Rowsey wasn't on the floor this year?  Leads the SOTG tally with 8.  Put up the best value add season at MU this century, 2nd only to D-Wade.

Yes, a physical, strong, solid PG that can score some and defend at a high level (like a Traci Carter), will help next year - but - to dismiss the loss of Rowsey is silly.

We all know you hated Luke.  You love Heldt.  Hate Rowsey.  Largely hate on Markus.  What other MU players do you actually like?

[Its DJOver]

Your wrong dim knit.  Did you watch this team at all when Rowsey wasn't on the floor this year?  Leads the SOTG tally with 8.  Put up the best value add season at MU this century, 2nd only to D-Wade.

Yes, a physical, strong, solid PG that can score some and defend at a high level (like a Traci Carter), will help next year - but - to dismiss the loss of Rowsey is silly.

We all know you hated Luke.  You love Heldt.  Hate Rowsey.  Largely hate on Markus.  What other MU players do you actually like?

John Dawson

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Theo is interesting. I think he's better than you give him credit for. His production will likely be largely related to whether or not the guards actually get him the ball. As the season progressed, he showed better touch around the basket and even broke out a baby hook a few times. He moves well and finds open space, but needs a PG who can find him. I see him projecting as somewhere between Daniel Ochefu and Robert Jackson (with Angel Delgado as the pipe dream).

I think Theo has the chance to be really special.  His size and physicality is unbelievable for a freshman.  He is still raw, but I think he could be an absolute monster in the post with time.  I am very excited for his future, though admit its not guarantee he ever achieves his collegiate ceiling.  But he is a guy I'd be willing to bet that will leave no stone unturned in his work ethic to get there. 

[MU82]

And yet Jimmys ultimate end product in college turned out to be only Big East honorable mention. My only point is that you can't always say that we need some first team all big east players in order to have a real stud. Jimmy was highly efficient, clutch, and a defensive minded player but never amounted to that 1st team all BE "stud" if that's still the measure you're using.

This is such a great point, BB. Nicely done. Using 20/20 hindsight as our guide, plus his surprising NBA stardom, I think some of us are a little guilty of over-stud-ifying Jimmy when he was here. I say that and I LOVED Jimmy.

Lots of other really good points in this thread.

If we get a decent PG - I agree that a Cadougan or Carter type would help us, but would love better - I see no reason Markus can't do even better next season. For example, he shot much better from 3 as a freshman; what if he shoots closer to that pct next year while still doing all the other stuff he does on offense?

Sam, I completely disagree with those who think he's hit his ceiling. A LOT of room for improvement there, including aggressiveness, midrange shooting, rebounding, defense.

A few of these other guys have barely scratched the surface, especially Cain and Theo. They can be valuable contributors to a top-20 team. Add Morrow and Joey. And add another year of experience for all returners.

We're gonna kick some m-f-in' booty next season!

[Newsdreams]

newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

Wrong, I read all your posts. Just that you complain over the same issues. Look at this thread. No development, no studs. You don't see it fine but don't say the same thing over and over. If you can't see the talent on this years class so be it. But these were 3 star kids. They have developed much faster than I expected. I see that they can have a lot of potential and guys coming in are going to have to fight for their minutes. Theo is raw but I see the improvement, less moving screens, his offense developing hook shot. I can see Cain become a "stud".
Seriously this 1st BE team or whatever 1st team no matta. To me is sort of like a beauty pageant contest, I mean no Sam mention? Give me a break! Guess what, Sam in a way is our game changer look at what happens when he is not on the floor our team usually goes of the rails. Last nights game Sam was having a terrible game and in foul trouble and how did we look? Sam has a lot of upside still, I can see his post game improving a lot and so his turnaround jumper. Markus will improve, I'm sure he will work a lot on his handles during the off season, he is smart and knows he needs it. I've seen some improvement on his D don't know if last night becomes the norm but he was positioning himself nicely and taking charges.
Am I satisfied with the results so far? No, but I don't feel we are in a terrible position either. I see what is being put together for long term success and the next two years will show. I expect at least top 4 BE next year even w/o a new PG and easily into NCAA field. What round I expect we reach? Don't know because you never know the path you are given by committee.
So here Goose

[Newsdreams]

Beware the intelligencia. Remember the SNL beygency skit? Where people come for you if you have anything less than complimentary of Beyonce? It's kinda like that around here most of the time too.

Wrong, but to read basically the same complains over and over. What is the point?

[Floorslapper]

John Dawson

Dude - You really shouldn't waste your time here. Hone your craft at that stand up comedy gig you'd clearly excel at.  Damn near spit out my coffee I laughed so hard.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Yea, I'm not getting the Sam hate. (I don't actually think it's hate, people here just really seem to undervalue him)

Look how broken Marquette was yesterday without him on the floor. He's far and away Marquette's most important player and he has been option number 3 on offense this year.

With Rowsey graduating and Morrow and Joey coming in, he's going to get a lot touches and mismatches on offense next year. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he is All BE second team next year and his NBA prospects are better than anyone on the current roster.

[jesmu84]

Some people have different standards for what constitutes "good."  Personally, I agree with you.  A good team is Top 30 caliber.  Not, Top 60.  Granted, the difference is not much, as Tower points out.

In my view we should have been a 30ish team this year, given the crazy good season turned in by Rowsey and Sam.  IF our D had just been ranked 100, we'd be a Top 30 team. And, yes, we were capable of being a 100th in the country type of defense.

How?

[tower912]

That thread from a few weeks ago showed MU WAS a top 100 defense when only one liliputian guard was on the floor.    The problem from a coaching perspective was how to take a 20 pt scorer off the floor and replace him with a offensively challenged freshman for big minutes.     Cain and Elliott were usually (sometimes they played like freshman) clear upgrades defensively.      Wojo didn't pull that trigger, choosing offense.   

Which is another reason I am optimistic about next year.   A lot easier to hide 1 tiny guard than 2 tiny guards. 

[Its DJOver]

Dude - You really shouldn't waste your time here. Hone your craft at that stand up comedy gig you'd clearly excel at.  Damn near spit out my coffee I laughed so hard.

That was kinda the intent, I'm on your side for this one.

Apparently teal isn't working on my phone