Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?

[Tugg Speedman]

Actually, a US citizen was charged, Richard Pinedo, but it really isn't the point of this thread.

Again ...

lying on Facebook is not a crime

Lying about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime

Colliding with Russians to run a troll farm on Facebook is not a crime

That is why they only get these guys on process crimes, in Pinedos case, indentity fraud.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html

[Pakuni]

Again ...

lying on Facebook is not a crime

Lying about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime

Colliding with Russians to run a troll farm on Facebook is not a crime

That is why they only get these guys on process crimes, in Pinedos case, indentity fraud.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html

Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.

If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the thread shut down.

[MU82]

I actually agree with Heisy on the Ministry of Truth concept.

If there was one today, it would be under the control of someone who would tell us that  there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville, and would list himself as the "least racist person" in America. Not sure those are the kind of "truths" we need.

Just listing the hateful, racist things the "least racist person" has re-tweeted would give somebody carpal tunnel syndrome.

[Pakuni]

If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the thread shut down.

He'll declare that anyone who disagrees with him is mentally ill.
Cause that's what sane, rational people do when confronted with opposing viewpoints.

[Mutaman]

"If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the


 thread shut down."





Wrong. First he'll move the goalposts. Then he'll get hysterical.

[WarriorDad]

So how do we feel when the shoe is on the other foot?  The latest being the Israeli elections. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.d995db84d501

[Mutaman]

 The NYT and Post, as well as almost all newspapers, immediately issue an apology when they are show to be wrong.

I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work there, Lou. One of the recent complaints about the Times under Baquet's stewardship is their frequent failure to apologize when they are wrong. Indeed, I suspect one of the reasons Baquet terminated the Public Editor position was because he was tired of having his feet held to the fire.


Now that I think about it, did they ever apologize for Judith Miller?

[Mutaman]

So how do we feel when the shoe is on the other foot?  The latest being the Israeli elections. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.d995db84d501

Can't get by the firewall on the Post's article but: I read history as showing that Eisenhower gave the order to assassinate Patrice Lumumba. If so, that was a pretty despicable act. On the other hand if a foreign leader gave the order to assassinate another leader, I don't think "what about Eisehower" would be much of a defense.

"Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world."

Wiki

[Tugg Speedman]

Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.

Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.

[Pakuni]

So how do we feel when the shoe is on the other foot?  The latest being the Israeli elections. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.d995db84d501

False equivalency. And a scary one at that.
The United States is not a hostile, dictatorial  power seeking to influence Israeli elections as a means of furthering  its tyrannical goals, weakening democratic institutions and spreading civil unrest.

To think that many from the "Party of Reagan" are now excusing - and in some cases embracing - the meddling of what he called ther Evil Empire in our government is outright frightening.  Ronnie is surely spinning in his grave when some in his party draw a parallel between the USA and an authoritarian regime ruled by a KGB agent.

But not you, cause you're a lifelong Democrat (wink wink, nudge nudge).

[Pakuni]

Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52%20section:30121%20edition:prelim)

Goalpost shifting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

[Tugg Speedman]

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52%20section:30121%20edition:prelim)

Goalpost shifting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

You did an excellent job of digging up a law they do not apply.  This is a campaign contribution law that has nothing to do with this case.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.

§ 110.20 Prohibition on contributions, donations, expenditures, independent expenditures, and disbursements by foreign nationals ( 52 U.S.C. 30121, 36 U.S.C. 510).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20

[Pakuni]

You did an excellent job of digging up a law they do not apply.  This is a campaign contribution law that has nothing to do with this case.

Right. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian trolls for running a complex,  yearslong operation to influence American elections. Clearly a law that bars foreign nationals from aiding a campaign is irrelevant to that.

The guy who 10 minutes ago didn't even know this law existed is clearly the expert here.

[Tugg Speedman]

False equivalency. And a scary one at that.
The United States is not a hostile, dictatorial  power seeking to influence Israeli elections as a means of furthering  its tyrannical goals, weakening democratic institutions and spreading civil unrest.

To think that many from the "Party of Reagan" are now excusing - and in some cases embracing - the meddling of what he called ther Evil Empire in our government is outright frightening.  Ronnie is surely spinning in his grave when some in his party draw a parallel between the USA and an authoritarian regime ruled by a KGB agent.

But not you, cause you're a lifelong Democrat (wink wink, nudge nudge).

To be clear, no one is denying the Russia engaged lies and deceit on social media designed to mess with Hillary Clinton. The Russians are known liars and cheats ... just turn on the Olympics and notice that the few Russian athletes allowed to compete are doing so under the OAR (Olympic Athlete from Russia) designation.  This because their entire reason for being and culture is about lies and deceit.  So fact accepted, they did it.

Big question.  Did it matter?  No one has suggested it did.  Even the indictment yesterday went out of its way to say "no evidence" that it affected the outcome.

If you were really worried about this, the last thing you would do is have a hack like Mueller lead an investigation.  You would instruct the CIA to intercept and shut it down.

What republicans push back at is this is an attempt at proving collusion and de-legitimizing an election.  Becuase there are people like you that cannot accept reality, your candidate and your philosophy lost. It was rejected.

Deal with it.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Big question.  Did it matter?  No one has suggested it did.  Even the indictment yesterday went out of its way to say "no evidence" that it affected the outcome.

I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

a hack like Mueller

LOL

[Tugg Speedman]

Right. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian trolls for running a complex,  yearslong operation to influence American elections. Clearly a law that bars foreign nationals from aiding a campaign is irrelevant to that.

The guy who 10 minutes ago didn't even know this law existed is clearly the expert here.

because it does not apply.  You pulled a random law out of your ass

Again, this is what they were charged with ... because what you want to be the case as it makes you deal with an election you cannot accept.

Identity theft at center of new Mueller indictment
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/374258-russians-indicted-for-stealing-identities-to-finance-election-interference

Russian nationals stole the identities of six people in the United States to interfere with the 2016 presidential election, the Justice Department alleged Friday.

Special counsel Robert Mueller has brought charges of aggravated identity theft against four Russian nationals and the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian cyber influence group. They are among the 13 nationals and three groups indicted for conspiracy to alter the U.S. election.

This is the only crime they committed, not the irrelevant law that does not remotely apply that you googled.

RUSSIAN TROLLS STOLE REAL US IDENTITIES TO HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-trolls-identity-theft-mueller-indictment/
According to the indictment, the Russians not only created Paypal accounts, bank accounts, and false identity documents with stolen American identities, but also created social media accounts, using victims' names to more authentically fabricate political sock puppets and avoid detection.

[Pakuni]

I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

Because he literally does not understand the most basic principles of law.
Tugg ... you are way out of your depth here.  Go back to the kiddie pool.

[Tugg Speedman]

I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

See the post above ... what crime!!!  Identity theft?  Yes, they did it.

And to your second part, because you don't care about any of this, you really don't.  You want the election reversed.  That is why you care and you're ready to invent laws and give an overrated lawyer the power to tear up the constitution and decide who won because you think he will decide your preferred candidate won.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

because it does not apply.  You pulled a random law out of your ass

I'm not going to speak for Pakuni, but I am not talking about the laws applied in the Friday indictments.  Aren't those self-evident?  Why do we need to identify those laws giving that they are in the indictment itself??

You seemed to be disputing that there were any laws that could be applied to what is being commonly discussed as collusion.  There are.  I linked to one example.

[Tugg Speedman]

Because he literally does not understand the most basic principles of law.
Tugg ... you are way out of your depth here.  Go back to the kiddie pool.

That you don't care about anything except overturning an election you disagree with.

I completely understand a conclusion was made, that Trump is illegitimate, and he must be removed by any made up or unconstitutional method possible.

Incredible that you think they broke a campaign finance law that was never mentioned by anyone except you.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm not going to speak for Pakuni, but I am not talking about the laws applied in the Friday indictments.  Aren't those self-evident?  Why do we need to identify those laws giving that they are in the indictment itself??

You seemed to be disputing that there were any laws that could be applied to what is being commonly discussed as collusion.  There are.  I linked to one example.

And none of them were used yesterday ... meaning none of the defendants yesterday broke them.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

See the post above ... what crime!!!  Identity theft?  Yes, they did it.

Goalpost shift, again.  You keep arguing that the attempt to influence wasn't successful.  Why does it matter whether or not it was successful?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

And none of them were used yesterday ... meaning none of the defendants yesterday broke them.

I.am.not.talking.about.yesterday.  Does that help?