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Author Topic: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?  (Read 8778 times)

jesmu84

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This article would lead me to believe, yes.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/indiana/ct-arrest-bleach-autism-treatment-20180214-story.html

If someone would be this influenced to commit this type of act, surely they could be convinced to do other acts - violence, voting, etc.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 11:25:06 PM by jesmu84 »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 05:36:59 AM »
Not new, we have had con artists selling snake oil for as long as we have had a society.  Preachers promising cures, for all your money, is also as old as society.

Regarding you second question, is this just a confirmation bias (these people were going to do this anyway) or can they convince someone to do something against their better judgment?  I come down on it being confirmation bias. This parent was probably not highly educated and also desperate, overwhelmed, alone, scared with dealing with a kid with autism and if not this, it would have been something else.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:40:03 AM by Tugg Speedman »

GooooMarquette

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 09:52:05 AM »
It isn't the medium itself, it's the content.  And deceptive content is everywhere; on Facebook, Twitter, newspapers, TV news outlets, advertising flyers.

As for whether people just use the information to justify something they would have done anyway, or do something against their better judgment - it's both.  Regarding the parent who fell for the bleach "cure," it seems like the latter.  Sure, they might  have been desperately searching for "cures."  But I doubt they would ever have thought of feeding their child bleach if they hadn't read about it on FB.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 10:05:40 AM »
It isn't the medium itself, it's the content.  And deceptive content is everywhere; on Facebook, Twitter, newspapers, TV news outlets, advertising flyers.

As for whether people just use the information to justify something they would have done anyway, or do something against their better judgment - it's both.  Regarding the parent who fell for the bleach "cure," it seems like the latter.  Sure, they might  have been desperately searching for "cures."  But I doubt they would ever have thought of feeding their child bleach if they hadn't read about it on FB.

75 years ago it would have been the snake oil salesman from the back of a wagon.  Lying and deceit on FB is a modern version of this.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 10:12:09 AM »
75 years ago it would have been the snake oil salesman from the back of a wagon.  Lying and deceit on FB is a modern version of this.

Yes...that's what I was saying.  The snake oil salesman caused people to drink whatever he was peddling - something they NEVER would have done if not for his convincing deceit.  The FB post likewise caused the mother to feed her child something she likely NEVER would have thought of feeding her.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 10:22:51 AM »
To combat lies and deceit on social media, I fear we (as a society) are considering a “Ministry of Truth.”  And I fear that is far more destructive that what we have now.

So how do we “fix this” without resorting to government censorship?

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 10:34:33 AM »
To combat lies and deceit on social media, I fear we (as a society) are considering a “Ministry of Truth.”  And I fear that is far more destructive that what we have now.

So how do we “fix this” without resorting to government censorship?

Tuggie,

This goes back a long way in history, including Silence Dogood.  In many regards, the Internet makes this better in that the speed of debunking and responding can counter Fake News. The Third Estate has taken various forms over the centuries, but it is still alive.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/12/fake-news-history-long-violent-214535

WarriorDad

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 10:42:30 AM »
This article would lead me to believe, yes.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/indiana/ct-arrest-bleach-autism-treatment-20180214-story.html

If someone would be this influenced to commit this type of act, surely they could be convinced to do other acts - violence, voting, etc.

Is someone that only watches Fox news influenced?  How about only watching MSNBC?   

We tend to go where we are comfortable, visit sites that are agreeable, and respond to ads we already align with.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 10:49:31 AM »
Is someone that only watches Fox news influenced?  How about only watching MSNBC?   

We tend to go where we are comfortable, visit sites that are agreeable, and respond to ads we already align with.

Fair. But does social media make that easier? Especially the idea that you read/see/hear things from those "close" to you, as opposed to the unrelated news anchor

jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 10:51:46 AM »
To combat lies and deceit on social media, I fear we (as a society) are considering a “Ministry of Truth.”  And I fear that is far more destructive that what we have now.

So how do we “fix this” without resorting to government censorship?

Why would truth be destructive? Most people I know about - similar to this mom - don't believe experts/truth no matter what.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 11:17:45 AM »
Why would truth be destructive? Most people I know about - similar to this mom - don't believe experts/truth no matter what.

So the truth is an absolute that is easily discernible?


jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2018, 11:18:27 AM »
So the truth is an absolute that is easily discernible?

That's not what I said.

Answer my question

forgetful

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 11:35:28 AM »
75 years ago it would have been the snake oil salesman from the back of a wagon.  Lying and deceit on FB is a modern version of this.

No one is saying it didn't exist before. 

The problem is that the facebook/social media allows access to billions of people worldwide.  It also allows for the creation of thousands of blogs/self-claimed-experts, or people who lie about who they are/area of expertise weighing in on the utility of the snake oil. 

It creates the perception of legitimacy that these people desperate for a cure/solution need to make a dumb decision.  In a climate when people are convinced of a drug industry/food industry/deep-state conspiracy, it makes it difficult for actual factual information to be believed and makes the "snake oil" salesmen a powerful force difficult to overcome. 

This has been a problem in healthcare/nutrition for a while, giving rise to anti-vaxxers, "paleo-diets,"  homeopathy and many many others.

The problem isn't that this is happening; the problem is how easy the technology allows mis-information to dominate.

MU82

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 12:07:46 PM »
I am not proud to admit that during the past decade, I have relayed maybe 3-4 things I read on FB that proved to be untrue or dubious.

The difference between me and some folks - including some of the most powerful people in the world, most notably a famous gentleman who retweets all kinds of racist, misogynistic and hateful rhetoric - is that when I find out I am wrong, I acknowledge it and apologize for it. I don't just pretend it never happened.

We all make mistakes, including on social media. It's how we respond upon learning that we have made those mistakes that our character is revealed.

As for the question asked in the OP, the answer is obvious: Of course!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 12:17:35 PM »
No one is saying it didn't exist before. 

The problem is that the facebook/social media allows access to billions of people worldwide.  It also allows for the creation of thousands of blogs/self-claimed-experts, or people who lie about who they are/area of expertise weighing in on the utility of the snake oil. 

It creates the perception of legitimacy that these people desperate for a cure/solution need to make a dumb decision.  In a climate when people are convinced of a drug industry/food industry/deep-state conspiracy, it makes it difficult for actual factual information to be believed and makes the "snake oil" salesmen a powerful force difficult to overcome. 

This has been a problem in healthcare/nutrition for a while, giving rise to anti-vaxxers, "paleo-diets,"  homeopathy and many many others.

The problem isn't that this is happening; the problem is how easy the technology allows mis-information to dominate.

This.

Jockey

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2018, 12:28:21 PM »
No one is saying it didn't exist before. 

The problem is that the facebook/social media allows access to billions of people worldwide.  It also allows for the creation of thousands of blogs/self-claimed-experts, or people who lie about who they are/area of expertise weighing in on the utility of the snake oil. 

It creates the perception of legitimacy that these people desperate for a cure/solution need to make a dumb decision.  In a climate when people are convinced of a drug industry/food industry/deep-state conspiracy, it makes it difficult for actual factual information to be believed and makes the "snake oil" salesmen a powerful force difficult to overcome. 

This has been a problem in healthcare/nutrition for a while, giving rise to anti-vaxxers, "paleo-diets,"  homeopathy and many many others.

The problem isn't that this is happening; the problem is how easy the technology allows mis-information to dominate.

I read the silly comment by Heisy about snake oil salesmen and was going to comment until I saw your post.

You stated exactly what I was going to write - and did it much better than I would have.

Jockey

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2018, 12:30:42 PM »
I am not proud to admit that during the past decade, I have relayed maybe 3-4 things I read on FB that proved to be untrue or dubious.

The difference between me and some folks - including some of the most powerful people in the world, most notably a famous gentleman who retweets all kinds of racist, misogynistic and hateful rhetoric - is that when I find out I am wrong, I acknowledge it and apologize for it. I don't just pretend it never happened.



Interesting analogy here to your comments on newspapers. The NYT and Post, as well as almost all newspapers, immediately issue an apology when they are show to be wrong.

Heisy and the Satan in Washington that he kneels before would never do the same.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2018, 12:42:15 PM »
No one is saying it didn't exist before. 

The problem is that the facebook/social media allows access to billions of people worldwide.  It also allows for the creation of thousands of blogs/self-claimed-experts, or people who lie about who they are/area of expertise weighing in on the utility of the snake oil. 

It creates the perception of legitimacy that these people desperate for a cure/solution need to make a dumb decision.  In a climate when people are convinced of a drug industry/food industry/deep-state conspiracy, it makes it difficult for actual factual information to be believed and makes the "snake oil" salesmen a powerful force difficult to overcome. 

This has been a problem in healthcare/nutrition for a while, giving rise to anti-vaxxers, "paleo-diets,"  homeopathy and many many others.

The problem isn't that this is happening; the problem is how easy the technology allows mis-information to dominate.

Completely agree. 

The question is what to do about it?  Who decides and how?

Jay Bee

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2018, 12:47:03 PM »
Lotta deception right on this here site, ain1l?
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2018, 12:48:27 PM »
Why would truth be destructive? Most people I know about - similar to this mom - don't believe experts/truth no matter what.

The truth is not destructive, its just how do you know what it is?  For instance ...

* The Russian tried to influence our election by spreading false and fake post on social media

* To date, no collision has been found.  To date, no US citizens have been implicated.

* to date no one has suggested it changed the outcome of the election

All of these are true.  So what does the ministry of truth do with this?  Only accept certain truths and not others?

And, given all the lying, "experts" are not held in high regard.  Why?  Becuase most think experts are not representing their best interests.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2018, 12:57:35 PM »
This just in ... this is what happens when we have a ministry of truth (run by Facebook), they ban legitimate news organizations.

http://truthinmedia.com/brazils-largest-newspaper-abandons-facebook-banning-professional-journalism/

The largest newspaper in Brazil, Folha de S Paulo, announced late last week that due to Facebook’s recent changes to their news feed algorithm resulting in what the paper claims is “effectively banning professional journalism,” it would cease publishing content on the social media platform.

The Guardian reported that the popular Brazilian newspaper has an online and print subscription base of nearly 285,000 subscribers and had roughly 204 million page impressions last December, according to the Communication Verification Institute, a non-profit media auditor. The company’s Facebook page has nearly 6 million Facebook followers.

Only weeks ago, Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s co-founder and CEO, announced that the company would be changing the algorithm used to determine what shows up in an individual’s Newsfeed to prioritize “meaningful social interactions” and posts by friends, and “trusted” news sources.

Folha noted that the choice to abandon Facebook was “a reflection of internal discussions about the best ways to get the content of the newspaper to reach its readers. The disadvantages of using Facebook as a path to this distribution became more evident after the social network’s decision to reduce the visibility of professional journalism on its users’ pages.”

A separate report in Folha noted that the newspaper’s own analysis found that “fake news pages received five times the number of engagements that professional journalism received” during the month of January.







jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2018, 01:01:34 PM »
The truth is not destructive, its just how do you know what it is?  For instance ...

* The Russian tried to influence our election by spreading false and fake post on social media

* To date, no collision has been found.  To date, no US citizens have been implicated.

* to date no one has suggested it changed the outcome of the election

All of these are true.  So what does the ministry of truth do with this?  Only accept certain truths and not others?

And, given all the lying, "experts" are not held in high regard.  Why?  Becuase most think experts are not representing their best interests.

I'm not sure what deep-state, bad acid trip you're on...

I'm talking about someone telling that mom that what she was feeding her child was bleach. Which can cause significant harm. Someone who is an expert, like a physician. And that someone not being believed.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2018, 01:04:11 PM »
I actually agree with Heisy on the Ministry of Truth concept.

If there was one today, it would be under the control of someone who would tell us that  there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville, and would list himself as the "least racist person" in America. Not sure those are the kind of "truths" we need.


GooooMarquette

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2018, 01:07:49 PM »

* To date, no collision has been found.  To date, no US citizens have been implicated.


Correction. Bob Mueller and team have not told us whether they have found collusion that implicates US citizens. For all we know, that could be in the next round of indictments. He has surprised all of us before...


forgetful

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2018, 01:17:59 PM »
Correction. Bob Mueller and team have not told us whether they have found collusion that implicates US citizens. For all we know, that could be in the next round of indictments. He has surprised all of us before...

Actually, a US citizen was charged, Richard Pinedo, but it really isn't the point of this thread. 

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2018, 02:15:51 PM »
Actually, a US citizen was charged, Richard Pinedo, but it really isn't the point of this thread.

Again ...

lying on Facebook is not a crime

Lying about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime

Colliding with Russians to run a troll farm on Facebook is not a crime

That is why they only get these guys on process crimes, in Pinedos case, indentity fraud.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:18:15 PM by Tugg Speedman »

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2018, 06:45:30 PM »
Again ...

lying on Facebook is not a crime

Lying about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime

Colliding with Russians to run a troll farm on Facebook is not a crime

That is why they only get these guys on process crimes, in Pinedos case, indentity fraud.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/16/politics/richard-pinedo-guilty-plea/index.html

Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2018, 06:50:10 PM »
Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.
If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the thread shut down.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

MU82

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2018, 06:53:49 PM »
I actually agree with Heisy on the Ministry of Truth concept.

If there was one today, it would be under the control of someone who would tell us that  there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville, and would list himself as the "least racist person" in America. Not sure those are the kind of "truths" we need.

Just listing the hateful, racist things the "least racist person" has re-tweeted would give somebody carpal tunnel syndrome.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2018, 06:54:11 PM »
If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the thread shut down.

He'll declare that anyone who disagrees with him is mentally ill.
Cause that's what sane, rational people do when confronted with opposing viewpoints.

Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2018, 07:10:07 PM »
"If you keep presenting facts to Heisy he'll get hysterical again and get the


 thread shut down."





Wrong. First he'll move the goalposts. Then he'll get hysterical.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:12:53 PM by Mutaman »

WarriorDad

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2018, 07:31:21 PM »
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2018, 07:46:31 PM »


 The NYT and Post, as well as almost all newspapers, immediately issue an apology when they are show to be wrong.



I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work there, Lou. One of the recent complaints about the Times under Baquet's stewardship is their frequent failure to apologize when they are wrong. Indeed, I suspect one of the reasons Baquet terminated the Public Editor position was because he was tired of having his feet held to the fire.


Now that I think about it, did they ever apologize for Judith Miller?


Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2018, 07:53:54 PM »
So how do we feel when the shoe is on the other foot?  The latest being the Israeli elections. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.d995db84d501

Can't get by the firewall on the Post's article but: I read history as showing that Eisenhower gave the order to assassinate Patrice Lumumba. If so, that was a pretty despicable act. On the other hand if a foreign leader gave the order to assassinate another leader, I don't think "what about Eisehower" would be much of a defense.

"Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world."

Wiki
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:55:51 PM by Mutaman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 08:04:42 PM »
Conspiring to accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election is a crime.

Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 08:11:39 PM »
So how do we feel when the shoe is on the other foot?  The latest being the Israeli elections. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.d995db84d501

False equivalency. And a scary one at that.
The United States is not a hostile, dictatorial  power seeking to influence Israeli elections as a means of furthering  its tyrannical goals, weakening democratic institutions and spreading civil unrest.

To think that many from the "Party of Reagan" are now excusing - and in some cases embracing - the meddling of what he called ther Evil Empire in our government is outright frightening.  Ronnie is surely spinning in his grave when some in his party draw a parallel between the USA and an authoritarian regime ruled by a KGB agent.

But not you, cause you're a lifelong Democrat (wink wink, nudge nudge).

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2018, 08:14:52 PM »
Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.


http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52%20section:30121%20edition:prelim)

Goalpost shifting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2018, 08:17:43 PM »

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52%20section:30121%20edition:prelim)

Goalpost shifting in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

You did an excellent job of digging up a law they do not apply.  This is a campaign contribution law that has nothing to do with this case.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2018, 08:18:03 PM »
Please direct me to the “accept material aid from a foreign entity in an election” law.  Better, email Mueller because he charged them with bank fraud and identity theft, not this made up law.

§ 110.20 Prohibition on contributions, donations, expenditures, independent expenditures, and disbursements by foreign nationals ( 52 U.S.C. 30121, 36 U.S.C. 510).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2018, 08:24:38 PM »
You did an excellent job of digging up a law they do not apply.  This is a campaign contribution law that has nothing to do with this case.

Right. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian trolls for running a complex,  yearslong operation to influence American elections. Clearly a law that bars foreign nationals from aiding a campaign is irrelevant to that.

The guy who 10 minutes ago didn't even know this law existed is clearly the expert here.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2018, 08:26:30 PM »
False equivalency. And a scary one at that.
The United States is not a hostile, dictatorial  power seeking to influence Israeli elections as a means of furthering  its tyrannical goals, weakening democratic institutions and spreading civil unrest.

To think that many from the "Party of Reagan" are now excusing - and in some cases embracing - the meddling of what he called ther Evil Empire in our government is outright frightening.  Ronnie is surely spinning in his grave when some in his party draw a parallel between the USA and an authoritarian regime ruled by a KGB agent.

But not you, cause you're a lifelong Democrat (wink wink, nudge nudge).

To be clear, no one is denying the Russia engaged lies and deceit on social media designed to mess with Hillary Clinton. The Russians are known liars and cheats ... just turn on the Olympics and notice that the few Russian athletes allowed to compete are doing so under the OAR (Olympic Athlete from Russia) designation.  This because their entire reason for being and culture is about lies and deceit.  So fact accepted, they did it.

Big question.  Did it matter?  No one has suggested it did.  Even the indictment yesterday went out of its way to say "no evidence" that it affected the outcome.

If you were really worried about this, the last thing you would do is have a hack like Mueller lead an investigation.  You would instruct the CIA to intercept and shut it down.

What republicans push back at is this is an attempt at proving collusion and de-legitimizing an election.  Becuase there are people like you that cannot accept reality, your candidate and your philosophy lost. It was rejected.

Deal with it.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2018, 08:30:20 PM »
Big question.  Did it matter?  No one has suggested it did.  Even the indictment yesterday went out of its way to say "no evidence" that it affected the outcome.
I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

a hack like Mueller
LOL
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2018, 08:34:37 PM »
Right. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian trolls for running a complex,  yearslong operation to influence American elections. Clearly a law that bars foreign nationals from aiding a campaign is irrelevant to that.

The guy who 10 minutes ago didn't even know this law existed is clearly the expert here.

because it does not apply.  You pulled a random law out of your ass

Again, this is what they were charged with ... because what you want to be the case as it makes you deal with an election you cannot accept.

Identity theft at center of new Mueller indictment
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/374258-russians-indicted-for-stealing-identities-to-finance-election-interference

Russian nationals stole the identities of six people in the United States to interfere with the 2016 presidential election, the Justice Department alleged Friday.

Special counsel Robert Mueller has brought charges of aggravated identity theft against four Russian nationals and the Internet Research Agency (IRA), a Russian cyber influence group. They are among the 13 nationals and three groups indicted for conspiracy to alter the U.S. election.


This is the only crime they committed, not the irrelevant law that does not remotely apply that you googled.

RUSSIAN TROLLS STOLE REAL US IDENTITIES TO HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-trolls-identity-theft-mueller-indictment/
According to the indictment, the Russians not only created Paypal accounts, bank accounts, and false identity documents with stolen American identities, but also created social media accounts, using victims' names to more authentically fabricate political sock puppets and avoid detection.

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2018, 08:35:13 PM »
I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

Because he literally does not understand the most basic principles of law.
Tugg ... you are way out of your depth here.  Go back to the kiddie pool.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2018, 08:39:05 PM »
I am curious why you think this is a question at all much less a big one.  Why do you think the effectiveness or (in your opinion) ineffectiveness matters whatsoever to whether or not a crime was committed?

See the post above ... what crime!!!  Identity theft?  Yes, they did it.

And to your second part, because you don't care about any of this, you really don't.  You want the election reversed.  That is why you care and you're ready to invent laws and give an overrated lawyer the power to tear up the constitution and decide who won because you think he will decide your preferred candidate won.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2018, 08:42:19 PM »
because it does not apply.  You pulled a random law out of your ass
I'm not going to speak for Pakuni, but I am not talking about the laws applied in the Friday indictments.  Aren't those self-evident?  Why do we need to identify those laws giving that they are in the indictment itself??

You seemed to be disputing that there were any laws that could be applied to what is being commonly discussed as collusion.  There are.  I linked to one example.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2018, 08:44:20 PM »
Because he literally does not understand the most basic principles of law.
Tugg ... you are way out of your depth here.  Go back to the kiddie pool.

That you don't care about anything except overturning an election you disagree with.

I completely understand a conclusion was made, that Trump is illegitimate, and he must be removed by any made up or unconstitutional method possible.

Incredible that you think they broke a campaign finance law that was never mentioned by anyone except you.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2018, 08:47:51 PM »
I'm not going to speak for Pakuni, but I am not talking about the laws applied in the Friday indictments.  Aren't those self-evident?  Why do we need to identify those laws giving that they are in the indictment itself??

You seemed to be disputing that there were any laws that could be applied to what is being commonly discussed as collusion.  There are.  I linked to one example.

And none of them were used yesterday ... meaning none of the defendants yesterday broke them.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2018, 09:44:12 PM »
See the post above ... what crime!!!  Identity theft?  Yes, they did it.
Goalpost shift, again.  You keep arguing that the attempt to influence wasn't successful.  Why does it matter whether or not it was successful?
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2018, 09:49:01 PM »
And none of them were used yesterday ... meaning none of the defendants yesterday broke them.
I.am.not.talking.about.yesterday.  Does that help?
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

forgetful

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2018, 09:57:34 PM »
Heisy has either shifted the goal posts, or shifted the topic of conversation in this thread at least 3 times already.

Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2018, 10:13:25 PM »
Even the indictment yesterday went out of its way to say "no evidence" that it affected the outcome.



I skimmed through the 37 pages pretty quickly, but I don't see any allegation regarding the effect on the outcome. You also quote the words  "no evidence". Where does this quote come from? Which paragraph of the indictment are you referring to, maybe I missed it.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2018, 10:19:07 PM »
I skimmed through the 37 pages pretty quickly, but I don't see any allegation regarding the effect on the outcome. You also quote the words  "no evidence". Where does this quote come from? Which paragraph of the indictment are you referring to, maybe I missed it.

Hannity perhaps?

From the WaPo:

"In his remarks to reporters, Rosenstein also specified that the indictment doesn't determine whether Russia's interference effort changed the results of the 2016 election. He said there was “no allegation in the indictment of any effect on the outcome of the election.”

Some Trump allies quickly got excited about that, thinking that it meant Russia didn't win the race for Trump. But that's not what Rosenstein said. He was merely saying that the indictment doesn't make a determination — just as  the intelligence community's report back in January 2017 made no determination. (Nor would we expect either the special counsel or the intelligence community to make such a determination, given that it's almost completely unknowable what impact Russian interference had.)"

If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2018, 10:23:46 PM »
Hannity perhaps?

From the WaPo:

"In his remarks to reporters, Rosenstein also specified that the indictment doesn't determine whether Russia's interference effort changed the results of the 2016 election. He said there was “no allegation in the indictment of any effect on the outcome of the election.”

Some Trump allies quickly got excited about that, thinking that it meant Russia didn't win the race for Trump. But that's not what Rosenstein said. He was merely saying that the indictment doesn't make a determination — just as  the intelligence community's report back in January 2017 made no determination. (Nor would we expect either the special counsel or the intelligence community to make such a determination, given that it's almost completely unknowable what impact Russian interference had.)"

Neither Tugg nor I were referring to what Rosenstein or anybody else  said, we were both referring to the document itself. And the document speaks for itself.  :)

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2018, 05:00:14 AM »
Goalpost shift, again.  You keep arguing that the attempt to influence wasn't successful.  Why does it matter whether or not it was successful?

Because Posting mean thoughts about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime and did not sway the outcome of the election.  The crime was identity theft.  Everything else is the fantasy of unstable people wanting a different outcome to the election.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:05:36 AM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2018, 05:16:03 AM »
I skimmed through the 37 pages pretty quickly, but I don't see any allegation regarding the effect on the outcome. You also quote the words  "no evidence". Where does this quote come from? Which paragraph of the indictment are you referring to, maybe I missed it.

Go back and read Pukuni’s posts, the one where he said the foreigners broke campaign contributions laws. Where was that in the 37 pages? 

This is a Rorschach Test, everyone sees in this what they want, not actually what is there.  So, this thread has nothing to do with the case and everything to do with posters showing their personal illnesses to everyone.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 06:43:56 AM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2018, 05:40:12 AM »
When is Hillary going to jail? She paid her hatchman David Brock to do the same thing.  Oh wait, Brock did not steal anyone’s identity.... because that is the only crime announced on Friday.


April 25, 2016
The New York Daily News
Hillary Clinton camp now paying online trolls to attack anyone who disparages her online
https://archive.fo/wn6Lg

As head of the Correct The Record Super PAC for Hillary Clinton, David Brock has launched something called Barrier Breakers — an online mob of paid trolls designed to attack any and every person who says one cross word about Hillary Clinton on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, or elsewhere.

This isn't a conspiracy theory. They openly spin their strategy on the Correct The Record website and state that they are putting over $1 million behind their efforts.
As you likely know, Super PACs are allowed to raise and spend unlimited money on these types of efforts.

What's ugly is that we have no idea who these paid operatives are online. According to Correct The Record, many will be former reporters, PR executives, bloggers, and others. We have no idea if they truly say what they mean or mean what they say. Are they even using their actual identities? The Sanders campaign openly stated that they have never paid for any online comments.


The Los Angeles Times
Be nice to Hillary Clinton online — or risk a confrontation with her super PAC
https://archive.fo/ZagLg

When the Internet’s legions of Hillary hecklers steal away to chat rooms and Facebook pages to vent grievances about Clinton, express revulsion toward Clinton and launch attacks on Clinton, they now may find themselves in a surprising place – confronted by a multimillion dollar super PAC working with Clinton.

Hillary Clinton's well-heeled backers have opened a new frontier in digital campaigning, one that seems to have been inspired by some of the Internet's worst instincts. Correct the Record, a super PAC coordinating with Clinton's campaign, is spending some $1 million to find and confront  social media users who post unflattering messages about the Democratic front-runner.


The New York Times
September 22, 2016
Inside Hillary Clinton’s Outrage Machine, Allies Push the Buttons
https://archive.fo/f1D76

Beyond creating a boisterous echo chamber, the real metric of success for Shareblue, which Mr. Brock said has a budget of $2 million supplied by his political donors, is getting Mrs. Clinton elected. Mr. Daou’s role is deploying a band of committed, outraged followers to harangue Mrs. Clinton’s opponents.

“The pond scum of American politics,” is how Tad Devine, a senior strategist to Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, described the website in March for its frequent attacks on Mr. Sanders.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2018, 09:25:03 AM »
Because Posting mean thoughts about Hillary on Facebook is not a crime and did not sway the outcome of the election.  The crime was identity theft.  Everything else is the fantasy of unstable people wanting a different outcome to the election.
Sigh.  I don't know if you are intentionally/pretending to not understand or are just dense, but I'll try to break it down for you:

1) The indictments on Friday had nothing to do with "posting mean thoughts" on Facebook.  I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, yet you keep trying to pretend this shows there was no crime.  You admit the indictments were for breaking other laws; ranting that posts on Facebook aren't crimes, while technically true, has no bearing on the indictments.

2) You then stated that colluding with Russia to run a troll farm is not a crime.  Pakuni pointed out that accepting material aid from a foreign country is a crime.  You claimed there was no such law.  Both Pakuni and I linked to the specific statutes.  So you shifted your argument to say those laws didn't apply to the indictments on Friday.  Well no sh!t Sherlock, that's why they weren't in the indictment.  But presuming your understood that (and I suspect you do, you were simply trying to change the argument), the statute linked show what Americans can be indicted for.

3) So then it was time to change your argument again, and say it doesn't matter because the Russian attempts to sway the election weren't effective-- a statement our intelligence agencies have NOT made.  But, as I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, whether it was effective or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.  If it did, there would be no charges for attempted murder or attempted robbery.

4) Then you claimed we were "inventing laws".  As if we didn't link you directly to the statutes.

5) Then you claimed that Friday's indictments specifically said there was no evidence the Russia influence campaign altered the outcome of the election.  Setting aside the fact that it doesn't matter if it was successful or not, you were shown the document doesn't say that.  And instead of acknowledging that you were dead wrong, you implied Pakuni claimed the indictment talked about campaign finance laws.  Which of course he didn't.

6) And then you finished off with your usual hysterical spittle-flecked claim that anyone that disagrees with you is mentally ill.

In summary, you can't say that the indictments weren't for lying on Facebook (true), ask what crimes were committed re Russian troll farms, and when told the answer claim that it is wrong because they weren't in the indictments. Also, you can't claim there is no crime if it wasn't successful.  Well, you can claim this, but with your usual accuracy.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

jesmu84

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2018, 09:29:54 AM »
Sigh.  I don't know if you are intentionally/pretending to not understand or are just dense, but I'll try to break it down for you:

1) The indictments on Friday had nothing to do with "posting mean thoughts" on Facebook.  I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, yet you keep trying to pretend this shows there was no crime.  You admit the indictments were for breaking other laws; ranting that posts on Facebook aren't crimes, while technically true, has no bearing on the indictments.

2) You then stated that colluding with Russia to run a troll farm is not a crime.  Pakuni pointed out that accepting material aid from a foreign country is a crime.  You claimed there was no such law.  Both Pakuni and I linked to the specific statutes.  So you shifted your argument to say those laws didn't apply to the indictments on Friday.  Well no sh!t Sherlock, that's why they weren't in the indictment.  But presuming your understood that (and I suspect you do, you were simply trying to change the argument), the statute linked show what Americans can be indicted for.

3) So then it was time to change your argument again, and say it doesn't matter because the Russian attempts to sway the election weren't effective-- a statement our intelligence agencies have NOT made.  But, as I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, whether it was effective or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.  If it did, there would be no charges for attempted murder or attempted robbery.

4) Then you claimed we were "inventing laws".  As if we didn't link you directly to the statutes.

5) Then you claimed that Friday's indictments specifically said there was no evidence the Russia influence campaign altered the outcome of the election.  Setting aside the fact that it doesn't matter if it was successful or not, you were shown the document doesn't say that.  And instead of acknowledging that you were dead wrong, you implied Pakuni claimed the indictment talked about campaign finance laws.  Which of course he didn't.

6) And then you finished off with your usual hysterical spittle-flecked claim that anyone that disagrees with you is mentally ill.

In summary, you can't say that the indictments weren't for lying on Facebook (true), ask what crimes were committed re Russian troll farms, and when told the answer claim that it is wrong because they weren't in the indictments. Also, you can't claim there is no crime if it wasn't successful.  Well, you can claim this, but with your usual accuracy.

Yup. He seems to be stuck on calling people mentally unstable. And unable to deal with the pure facts of the situation, instead saying everyone is just upset about the election outcome.

If I try to rob a bank and get caught, I still committed a crime, even though my act was not effective. Same for literally every law in existence.

GGGG

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2018, 09:33:47 AM »
Sigh.  I don't know if you are intentionally/pretending to not understand or are just dense, but I'll try to break it down for you:

1) The indictments on Friday had nothing to do with "posting mean thoughts" on Facebook.  I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, yet you keep trying to pretend this shows there was no crime.  You admit the indictments were for breaking other laws; ranting that posts on Facebook aren't crimes, while technically true, has no bearing on the indictments.

2) You then stated that colluding with Russia to run a troll farm is not a crime.  Pakuni pointed out that accepting material aid from a foreign country is a crime.  You claimed there was no such law.  Both Pakuni and I linked to the specific statutes.  So you shifted your argument to say those laws didn't apply to the indictments on Friday.  Well no sh!t Sherlock, that's why they weren't in the indictment.  But presuming your understood that (and I suspect you do, you were simply trying to change the argument), the statute linked show what Americans can be indicted for.

3) So then it was time to change your argument again, and say it doesn't matter because the Russian attempts to sway the election weren't effective-- a statement our intelligence agencies have NOT made.  But, as I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, whether it was effective or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.  If it did, there would be no charges for attempted murder or attempted robbery.

4) Then you claimed we were "inventing laws".  As if we didn't link you directly to the statutes.

5) Then you claimed that Friday's indictments specifically said there was no evidence the Russia influence campaign altered the outcome of the election.  Setting aside the fact that it doesn't matter if it was successful or not, you were shown the document doesn't say that.  And instead of acknowledging that you were dead wrong, you implied Pakuni claimed the indictment talked about campaign finance laws.  Which of course he didn't.

6) And then you finished off with your usual hysterical spittle-flecked claim that anyone that disagrees with you is mentally ill.

In summary, you can't say that the indictments weren't for lying on Facebook (true), ask what crimes were committed re Russian troll farms, and when told the answer claim that it is wrong because they weren't in the indictments. Also, you can't claim there is no crime if it wasn't successful.  Well, you can claim this, but with your usual accuracy.


I enjoyed reading this.

Mutaman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2018, 09:43:09 AM »
Go back and read Pukuni’s posts, the one where he said the foreigners broke campaign contributions laws. Where was that in the 37 pages? 

This is a Rorschach Test, everyone sees in this what they want, not actually what is there.  So, this thread has nothing to do with the case and everything to do with posters showing their personal illnesses to everyone.

I don't read Pukuni's posts , i read yours. I repeat, what  paragraph of the Indictment alleges an effect on the outcome, and what paragraph contains the quote ""no evidence".

Pakuni

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2018, 09:50:38 AM »
Go back and read Pukuni’s posts, the one where he said the foreigners broke campaign contributions laws. Where was that in the 37 pages? 

1. Went back and read my posts. Never said that once.
2. You continue to show your utter ignorance of the legal process. Remember the old saying about how it's sometimes better to remain silent? You'd do well to follow that advice here.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2018, 01:28:16 PM »
To circle back to jesmu's original question, "does social media influence individuals", IMO that answer is clearly yes.

Does advertising influence peoples' opinions, attitudes, purchases, etc.?  Or course it does...unless you believe that companies have wasted all their money on advertising campaigns throughout the entire history of commerce.  If advertising didn't result in changed consumer behavior companies would stop doing it.

Russia was engaged in the same process, an attempt to sway opinions, attitudes, and behavior.  It is extremely difficult to know to what degree they were successful, and our intelligence agencies have not offered an opinion as to whether the results actually changed the election outcome.  But we know they used extremely accurate and sophisticated targeting* in positioning their messaging, and because of the vote margins in key states--0.8% in Wisconsin, 0.2% Michigan, 0.7% In Pennsylvania--even a tiny effect would have been enough to flip the states.

* Speculation on my part, but I believe Cambridge Analytica feed them the information with help from Jared.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2018, 01:43:43 PM »
Sigh.  I don't know if you are intentionally/pretending to not understand or are just dense, but I'll try to break it down for you:

1) The indictments on Friday had nothing to do with "posting mean thoughts" on Facebook.  I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, yet you keep trying to pretend this shows there was no crime.  You admit the indictments were for breaking other laws; ranting that posts on Facebook aren't crimes, while technically true, has no bearing on the indictments.

2) You then stated that colluding with Russia to run a troll farm is not a crime.  Pakuni pointed out that accepting material aid from a foreign country is a crime.  You claimed there was no such law.  Both Pakuni and I linked to the specific statutes.  So you shifted your argument to say those laws didn't apply to the indictments on Friday.  Well no sh!t Sherlock, that's why they weren't in the indictment.  But presuming your understood that (and I suspect you do, you were simply trying to change the argument), the statute linked show what Americans can be indicted for.

3) So then it was time to change your argument again, and say it doesn't matter because the Russian attempts to sway the election weren't effective-- a statement our intelligence agencies have NOT made.  But, as I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, whether it was effective or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.  If it did, there would be no charges for attempted murder or attempted robbery.

4) Then you claimed we were "inventing laws".  As if we didn't link you directly to the statutes.

5) Then you claimed that Friday's indictments specifically said there was no evidence the Russia influence campaign altered the outcome of the election.  Setting aside the fact that it doesn't matter if it was successful or not, you were shown the document doesn't say that.  And instead of acknowledging that you were dead wrong, you implied Pakuni claimed the indictment talked about campaign finance laws.  Which of course he didn't.

6) And then you finished off with your usual hysterical spittle-flecked claim that anyone that disagrees with you is mentally ill.

In summary, you can't say that the indictments weren't for lying on Facebook (true), ask what crimes were committed re Russian troll farms, and when told the answer claim that it is wrong because they weren't in the indictments. Also, you can't claim there is no crime if it wasn't successful.  Well, you can claim this, but with your usual accuracy.

I doff my cap to you, sir!  Eloquent, succinct, and spot on.

MU82

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2018, 02:36:54 PM »
Sigh.  I don't know if you are intentionally/pretending to not understand or are just dense, but I'll try to break it down for you:

1) The indictments on Friday had nothing to do with "posting mean thoughts" on Facebook.  I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, yet you keep trying to pretend this shows there was no crime.  You admit the indictments were for breaking other laws; ranting that posts on Facebook aren't crimes, while technically true, has no bearing on the indictments.

2) You then stated that colluding with Russia to run a troll farm is not a crime.  Pakuni pointed out that accepting material aid from a foreign country is a crime.  You claimed there was no such law.  Both Pakuni and I linked to the specific statutes.  So you shifted your argument to say those laws didn't apply to the indictments on Friday.  Well no sh!t Sherlock, that's why they weren't in the indictment.  But presuming your understood that (and I suspect you do, you were simply trying to change the argument), the statute linked show what Americans can be indicted for.

3) So then it was time to change your argument again, and say it doesn't matter because the Russian attempts to sway the election weren't effective-- a statement our intelligence agencies have NOT made.  But, as I've tried to explain to you repeatedly, whether it was effective or not has no bearing on whether a crime was committed.  If it did, there would be no charges for attempted murder or attempted robbery.

4) Then you claimed we were "inventing laws".  As if we didn't link you directly to the statutes.

5) Then you claimed that Friday's indictments specifically said there was no evidence the Russia influence campaign altered the outcome of the election.  Setting aside the fact that it doesn't matter if it was successful or not, you were shown the document doesn't say that.  And instead of acknowledging that you were dead wrong, you implied Pakuni claimed the indictment talked about campaign finance laws.  Which of course he didn't.

6) And then you finished off with your usual hysterical spittle-flecked claim that anyone that disagrees with you is mentally ill.

In summary, you can't say that the indictments weren't for lying on Facebook (true), ask what crimes were committed re Russian troll farms, and when told the answer claim that it is wrong because they weren't in the indictments. Also, you can't claim there is no crime if it wasn't successful.  Well, you can claim this, but with your usual accuracy.

Perfect recap of pretty much every Smuggles argument ever, and certainly this one. Well done, sir!

I also have noticed that his latest default action is to call anybody who disagrees with him mentally unstable. Pot, meet kettle!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2018, 07:50:24 AM »
To circle back to jesmu's original question, "does social media influence individuals", IMO that answer is clearly yes.

Does advertising influence peoples' opinions, attitudes, purchases, etc.?  Or course it does...unless you believe that companies have wasted all their money on advertising campaigns throughout the entire history of commerce.  If advertising didn't result in changed consumer behavior companies would stop doing it.

Russia was engaged in the same process, an attempt to sway opinions, attitudes, and behavior.  It is extremely difficult to know to what degree they were successful, and our intelligence agencies have not offered an opinion as to whether the results actually changed the election outcome.  But we know they used extremely accurate and sophisticated targeting* in positioning their messaging, and because of the vote margins in key states--0.8% in Wisconsin, 0.2% Michigan, 0.7% In Pennsylvania--even a tiny effect would have been enough to flip the states.

* Speculation on my part, but I believe Cambridge Analytica feed them the information with help from Jared.

Advertising and social media is just a confirmation bias.

Extreme examples ... if Alex Jones never existed, how many of them would have voted for Hillary?  If moveon.org never existed, how many of them would have voted for Trump.  Point is all they are doing is feeding people predisposed to what they want to hear.  This is the big criticism of social media, it silos people off from other opinions outside their belief system.  It does not “advertise“ people into a “foreign” belief system.

It is not extremely difficult to know if it affected the outcome.  Obama said it did not, the FBI said it did not (and again made that point in last week’s indictment) and homeland security said it did not.  Your inability to accept this reflects on your biases.  This is part of your confirmation bias of what you already believe, and no amount of Russian Facebook posts is going to change your mind.

What information did you think Cambridge Analytica fed Jared?  And how does engaging a data mining company to provide information break the law?  How is it different from the post above with the 2016 stories noting David Brock was bragging he was doing the exact same thing for Hillary?

Regarding WI, MI and PA ... you really believe some Facebook posts turned those states?  How about these factoids, they did not matter?

* Hillary did not campaign once in WI during the general election

* primary polling began in 1976.  The biggest “miss” ever recorded was Hillary losing to Bernie in the Michigan primaries.  All the polls had her up 22% to 25% and she lost.  Did the Wizards in the Hillary campaign see that as a problem and send her to Michigan 25 Times in the general.  The answer is no.

* the Saturday before the election Hillary held a rally in Philly that was well attended and covered extensively in PA.  It featured black lives mattered disparaging the police and Katy Perry singing “I kissed a girl” and going out of her way saying how great Hillary would be for the LBGTQ community.  Make the case for me this was a good idea.  How do you think this “motivated” the 50+% of the state that is White Christian?  Where they too busy reading Russian Facebook posts to notice?

Finally go see what Michael Moore said before the election. He not only got it right, but was right for the right reasons. (Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator, was also right on the election for the right reasons).

https://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/

So yes anyone, like you, truly believing a bunch of Russian Facebook posts turned the election, despite David Brock doing exactly the same for Hillary, is mentally unbalanced.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 08:16:37 AM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2018, 08:12:02 AM »
If I try to rob a bank and get caught, I still committed a crime, even though my act was not effective. Same for literally every law in existence.

The problem with your analogy is bank robbery is illegal, Russian posts on Facebook is legal.

Better analogy... you were walking down the street and found a bag of money.  Instead of turning it in, you kept it?  Is what you done illegal?  No? Does it reflect badly on you?  Probably?

So once the police found out you had the bag of money, they arrested you on identity theft charges.

TSmith represents you in court and argues Cambridge Analytica put the bag of money on the street, they should be arrested even though putting a bag of money on the street is not illegal. Pakuni testifies on your defense that a bunch of Russian Facebook posts told you where to find it.  Arrest them.

So you demand the Mayor of the town be removed and replaced with Hillary.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Does Facebook (or other social media) deceive/influence individuals?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2018, 08:32:17 AM »
Liberalism, and voting/supporting the current make up of the Democratic Party is not an ideology, it is a mental disease.

Keep taking your Zoloft.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

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