Cancel student debt

[CTWarrior]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/02/lets-cancel-everyones-student-debt-for-the-economys-sake.html

Ideas like this drive me insane because why did we bother to do things right?  My parents couldn't afford college so I worked multiple jobs and got students loans and upon graduation my wife and I paid both our loans back and planned for our son's education so he could graduate debt free, and insisted that he get a marketable degree (though we didn't need to do that, he would have done it for himself.)  My wife and I made many sacrifices along the way to make those things happen.  For instance I've never owned as my car a car that was built in the same decade I was driving it. 

I consider the story above completely unremarkable and I'm sure that vast majority of you are the same.

And my reward for being a normal responsible person is to have my taxes raised so those who didn't plan ahead or voluntarily got unmarketable degrees can not repay their debt?  No thank you.

[Lennys Tap]

If we agree what student debt is holding back the economy ... then the cause is tuition is too high.

How about we forcibly cut everyone's salary at colleges and universities 30% in order to make it affordable and not require this much debt.

This is really the same thing as canceling student debt ... forcing someone other than the student to take a loss.

Universities gouging students based on $$$ being available to anyone who can sign on the dotted line is every bit as pernicious as the mortgages predatory lenders were offering to un or under qualified folks before the real estate market crashed.

[Lennys Tap]

Ideas like this fdrive me insane because why did we bother to do things right?  My parents couldn't afford college so I worked multiple jobs and got students loans and upon graduation my wife and I paid both our loans back and planned for our son's education so he could graduate debt free, and insisted that he get a marketable degree (though we didn't need to do that, he would have done it for himself.I  My wife and I made many sacrifices along the way to make those things happen.  For instance I've never owned as my car a car that was built in the same decade I was driving it. 

I consider the story above completely unremarkable and I'm sure that vast majority of you are the same.

And my reward for being a normal responsible person is to have my taxes raised so those who didn't plan ahead or voluntarily got unmarketable degrees can not repay their debt?  No thank you.

+1000.

[jesmu84]

Ideas like this fdrive me insane because why did we bother to do things right?  My parents couldn't afford college so I worked multiple jobs and got students loans and upon graduation my wife and I paid both our loans back and planned for our son's education so he could graduate debt free, and insisted that he get a marketable degree (though we didn't need to do that, he would have done it for himself.I  My wife and I made many sacrifices along the way to make those things happen.  For instance I've never owned as my car a car that was built in the same decade I was driving it. 

I consider the story above completely unremarkable and I'm sure that vast majority of you are the same.

And my reward for being a normal responsible person is to have my taxes raised so those who didn't plan ahead or voluntarily got unmarketable degrees can not repay their debt?  No thank you.

I can't begin to imagine your age. Try working now and being able to afford tuition at a place like MU. Good luck.

Props to you for being able to support your son. The majority of those that went to college in the 2000s and later would be unable to do the same.

[rocket surgeon]

I can't begin to imagine your age. Try working now and being able to afford tuition at a place like MU. Good luck.

Props to you for being able to support your son. The majority of those that went to college in the 2000s and later would be unable to do the same.

  so now college, or an education at MU is an entitlement?  i can't afford the home i'd really really like or the black convertible Lamborghini up the road-life just ain't fair

[Tugg Speedman]

Universities gouging students based on $$$ being available to anyone who can sign on the dotted line is every bit as pernicious as the mortgages predatory lenders were offering to un or under qualified folks before the real estate market crashed.

Exactly!

The kids demanding student debt should be canceled should instead be demanding that the criminals that run the University Industrial Complex should be locked up for forcing them to take out these loans.

That is what the did to the banksters.

The problem begins and ends with education.  They charge way too much and since their are kids willing to take out massive loans to study poetry, this problem will never go away.

[Tugg Speedman]

I can't begin to imagine your age. Try working now and being able to afford tuition at a place like MU. Good luck.

Props to you for being able to support your son. The majority of those that went to college in the 2000s and later would be unable to do the same.

Why is the answer debt cancellation?  Why are you not demanding MU (or any other university) pay your loan and/or massively cut tuition so you can afford the debt load?

[🏀]

Let's cancel all credit card debt and mortgage debt while were at it! Moral hazard is a myth! Up the revolution, comrade!

Universities create phony, no job, no future disciplines, charge naive young people hundreds of thousands for useless degrees. All that's left to show for it is a pile of student debt that can't be repaid. God forbid we hold the schools or students responsible for the mess that's enriched the former at the expense of the latter - instead, let's just tear up the contracts and carry on.

Anyone who equates a competitive tax rate for our corporations or a slightly lower rate of confiscation of people's earned income with non payment of debts freely assumed is a total moron.

This sums it up perfectly.

[GGGG]

Let's cancel all credit card debt and mortgage debt while were at it! Moral hazard is a myth! Up the revolution, comrade!

Universities create phony, no job, no future disciplines, charge naive young people hundreds of thousands for useless degrees. All that's left to show for it is a pile of student debt that can't be repaid. God forbid we hold the schools or students responsible for the mess that's enriched the former at the expense of the latter - instead, let's just tear up the contracts and carry on.

Anyone who equates a competitive tax rate for our corporations or a slightly lower rate of confiscation of people's earned income with non payment of debts freely assumed is a total moron.

Well I'm not advocating for the idea, but I don't think the people at the Levy Institute are "total morons."  Frankly I would trust their macroeconomic takes more than I would yours.

It's interesting how we as a society decide to "hold people accountable."  An 18 year old making a poor decision when choosing a college and major?  Sorry...can't help you.

But a 40 year old making a poor investment?  Sure ...we can provide you this legal way to cancel your debts and start over!

But I guess we pick and choose our "moral hazards" versus our "second chances" right?  Whatever fits the narrative I guess.

[GGGG]

Why is the answer debt cancellation?  Why are you not demanding MU (or any other university) pay your loan and/or massively cut tuition so you can afford the debt load?

The only way this idea should be considered is if debt relief (short of cancellation) goes hand in hand with cost controls for schools who accept federal financial aid. 

[Tugg Speedman]

The only way this idea should be considered is if debt relief (short of cancellation) goes hand in hand with cost controls for schools who accept federal financial aid.

They don’t go hand-in-hand, the work against each other.

Cancel debt once, and you have to do it again and again.  Show me where a one time “anything” by the government stayed only one time.

Canceling debt the the strongest motivation for universities to not cut tuition.

It is precisely because students are willing to pile on the debt that universities have no incentive to control costs.  Debt relief now allows for more debt tomorrow and even higher tuition costs.

[GGGG]

Right.  The only way it goes hand in hand is when colleges and universities are forced to limit tuition and costs.

[Tugg Speedman]

Right.  The only way it goes hand in hand is when colleges and universities are forced to limit tuition and costs.

They will limit costs when the demand for their product falls.

That is what higher prices do .... except when one forgive debt to make it easier to continue to pay higher prices.

Otherwise how do you “force” universities to lower tuition and costs?  Limit their budget?  Walker tried that and all Hell broke loose?

[GGGG]

They will limit costs when the demand for their product falls.

That is what higher prices do .... except when one forgive debt to make it easier to continue to pay higher prices.

Otherwise how do you “force” universities to lower tuition and costs?  Limit their budget?  Walker tried that and all Hell broke loose?

The federal government can require certain cost controls in return for access to federal aid, research dollars, etc. 

It's not going to happen.

[Herman Cain]

Canceling student loans isn't fair to all the people who realized that getting deep into debt for their education was not a good idea and made other plans.

Why should someone who exhausted their savings and commuted from home to get a business degree at a state school subsidize someone who took out $200K in loans to get their PhD in Slavic Studies from an Ivy?

I agree with this analysis.

[Tugg Speedman]

The federal government can require certain cost controls in return for access to federal aid, research dollars, etc. 

It's not going to happen.

I agree it never going to happen.

So make it harder to get a loan.  Then only those that can pay them back will take them out.  Schools will go begging for students and cut tuition.

Debt forgiveness makes everything worse.

[GGGG]

I agree it never going to happen.

So make it harder to get a loan.  Then only those that can pay them back will take them out.  Schools will go begging for students and cut tuition.

Debt forgiveness makes everything worse.

Which is why I am not advocating for it unless it is part of a much larger solution regarding the cost and funding of higher education.

[WarriorDad]

Your posts sound an awful lot like a conservative pretending to be a dem. Tone is totally off. Do better.

My tone hasn't changed in 40ish years of voting.  Parties change.  Not sure how old you are, but let me give some examples.

In the late 70's when my voting started, almost 50% of Democrats owned guns. Today that number is less than 25%.  Back then there were numerous pro life Democrats in Congress, today there are three and one will likely be primaried out this Summer.  Where I used to be on board with 90% of the platform, I'm now on board with about 65%.  I still will vote Democrat, but my tone hasn't changed, the parties have changed.  Democrats more liberal.  Republicans more conservative. The middle is gone.  Maybe it is you that needs to recognize tone and how through time parties change, but us old guys may not change with our parties but still belong to them. 

[#UnleashSean]

My tone hasn't changed in 40ish years of voting.  Parties change.  Not sure how old you are, but let me give some examples.

In the late 70's when my voting started, almost 50% of Democrats owned guns. Today that number is less than 25%.  Back then there were numerous pro life Democrats in Congress, today there are three and one will likely be primaried out this Summer.  Where I used to be on board with 90% of the platform, I'm now on board with about 65%.  I still will vote Democrat, but my tone hasn't changed, the parties have changed.  Democrats more liberal.  Republicans more conservative. The middle is gone.  Maybe it is you that needs to recognize tone and how through time parties change, but us old guys may not change with our parties but still belong to them.

Political post of the year on scoop. I agree with what you say

[forgetful]

I agree it never going to happen.

So make it harder to get a loan.  Then only those that can pay them back will take them out.  Schools will go begging for students and cut tuition.

There is no realistic way to cut tuition dramatically.  You do what you propose and college will be a luxury for the rich. 

You will then be the first to say that it is poor people's fault for their situation, because they should have worked hard and got a college education, even though it was not remotely feasible for them. 

[Lennys Tap]

There is no realistic way to cut tuition dramatically. 

Why not? Schools found "realistic ways" to raise it dramatically.

[Tugg Speedman]

There is no realistic way to cut tuition dramatically.  You do what you propose and college will be a luxury for the rich. 

You will then be the first to say that it is poor people's fault for their situation, because they should have worked hard and got a college education, even though it was not remotely feasible for them.

Sure they can ... right now they do not need to because we find ways to create artificial demand by making it easy to get a student loan.

How about different prices for different majors?  Want to major in Computers or engineering?  $50k/year.  Want to major in English or history?  $25k/year.  Music or poetry?  $10k/year.

Right not having the same price for all means the poetry majors are subidzing the engineers.

[Pakuni]

Sure they can ... right now they do not need to because we find ways to create artificial demand by making it easy to get a student loan.

How about different prices for different majors?  Want to major in Computers or engineering?  $50k/year.  Want to major in English or history?  $25k/year.  Music or poetry?  $10k/year.

Right not having the same price for all means the poetry majors are subidzing the engineers.

Many schools do this already.
At the University of Illinois, for example, the base undergrad in-state tuition is a bit over $12,000. For fine arts students it's $13,600, and for the engineering and business programs it's more than $17,000. Same with out-of-state tuition (though higher tuition).

Extreme differences like those proposed by you would be a terrible idea.
Do we really want to make STEM fields even less appealing to students, both here and those coming from abroad? Do we want to incentive majors like poetry?

[Tugg Speedman]

This is how the problem gets fixed ....

For decades MBA programs were subsided by companies paying for their employees.  So business schools expanded and spent money like drunken sailors.  Then companies stopped paying, not they are closing and restructuring.

Same will apply to undergraduate program the second we stop creating artificial demand (making it too easy to take out huge loans that can never be paid back).

M.B.A. Program at University of Wisconsin May Be on the Chopping Block
Flagging student interest is prompting schools to take a hard look at their M.B.A. programs
October 20, 2017
https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-wisconsin-mulls-closing-m-b-a-program-amid-flagging-interest-1508491804

Once a must-have for careers in finance and management consulting, the M.B.A. has lost some appeal in recent years as fewer employers help workers cover costs and a generation of students saddled with student-loan debt opt to remain in the workforce rather than break for school. Though elite programs at Harvard and Stanford University continue to attract applicants, some schools outside the top tier are finding it harder to maintain interest in the two-year M.B.A.

Lately, the school has begun offering part-time and specialized programs in accounting and finance, feeding appetites for shorter, more niche credentials. About 100 students enrolled in the Wisconsin full-time M.B.A. program last month, steady with the class size two years prior.

(like I said in the post above, different prices for different majors.)

[Tugg Speedman]

Many schools do this already.
At the University of Illinois, for example, the base undergrad in-state tuition is a bit over $12,000. For fine arts students it's $13,600, and for the engineering and business programs it's more than $17,000. Same with out-of-state tuition (though higher tuition).

Extreme differences like those proposed by you would be a terrible idea.
Do we really want to make STEM fields even less appealing to students, both here and those coming from abroad? Do we want to incentive majors like poetry?

Right now we are punishing the poetry majors for making them subsidize the engineers.