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Author Topic: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck  (Read 13282 times)

GooooMarquette

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StillAWarrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 01:15:22 PM »
Interesting.  Obviously, such incidents are pretty much inevitable.  But, honestly, each one will provide important information that will help advance the technology.  Remember, the bar isn't set very high -- lots of people are really crappy drivers.  I'd be curious to know the "accidents-per-mile-driven" number for these cars as compared to humans.
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jesmu84

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2018, 04:22:15 PM »
Interesting.  Obviously, such incidents are pretty much inevitable.  But, honestly, each one will provide important information that will help advance the technology.  Remember, the bar isn't set very high -- lots of people are really crappy drivers.  I'd be curious to know the "accidents-per-mile-driven" number for these cars as compared to humans.

This is the important point that people need to come to understand. Sure, driverless cars will have accidents. Yesterday, today and tomorrow those accidents will happen. But to protect injuries/lives and decrease costs, driverless cars just need to do it at a lower rate. And, they will.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 04:37:55 PM »
This is the important point that people need to come to understand. Sure, driverless cars will have accidents. Yesterday, today and tomorrow those accidents will happen. But to protect injuries/lives and decrease costs, driverless cars just need to do it at a lower rate. And, they will.

This of course is logical. I haven't always known human beings to be logical.
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GooooMarquette

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 05:22:58 PM »
I’m sure they will prove to be much safer in the long run. In the shorter term, bugs still need to be worked out before they will gain mass acceptance.

GGGG

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 07:11:59 PM »
I’m sure they will prove to be much safer in the long run. In the shorter term, bugs still need to be worked out before they will gain mass acceptance.

People would rather be in control even if it results in less safe cars. To a point of course.

It’s why people are afraid of flying even though it is much safer than driving. They don’t feel in control.

tower912

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 07:52:44 PM »
My department has fire trucks hit on a regular basis.    With us, it is usually people driving too fast in the snow.    I am going to drive until they pull the steering wheel from my fingers.    But Tesla is going to work to perfect their autonomous driving.   People are going to continue to do careless, stupid crap. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 08:29:17 PM »
My department has fire trucks hit on a regular basis.    With us, it is usually people driving too fast in the snow.    I am going to drive until they pull the steering wheel from my fingers.    But Tesla is going to work to perfect their autonomous driving.   People are going to continue to do careless, stupid crap.

And when autonomous driving becomes reality estimates are human insurance will be $3k to $4k a year while autonomous cars will be a few hundreds bucks.  Street parking on any kind will be banned ... this is the biggie as up to 50% of urban traffic is parking ... double parking, looking for parking, illegal parking, narrowing streets with legal parking.

So while the rest of us will ride in the back of an autonomous car, some Luddite will by $4k a year to drive a car but not be able to park it.

muwarrior69

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 08:29:33 PM »
So who is liable? Tesla? The owner of the driverless vehicle? The software provider? etc.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 08:50:55 PM »
So who is liable? Tesla? The owner of the driverless vehicle? The software provider? etc.

By defintiion the autonomous car is not at fault.  It is probgrammed to precisely follow the rules.  So if a human is involved, it will be the human.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2018, 09:41:53 PM »
So who is liable? Tesla? The owner of the driverless vehicle? The software provider? etc.

I'm betting that purchase agreements for initial self-driving vehicles will contain provisions about who is responsible for various types of accidents.  Courts or legislators might eventually have something to say about it. 

A long-term possibility:  Manufacturers will be required to charge a small amount with each car they sell, and put the money into some insurance fund that covers the liability.  So you wouldn't be paying an annual insurance premium based on your driving history; you'd be pre-paying some standard amount based on big-picture accident stats.

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2018, 11:05:19 PM »
People would rather be in control even if it results in less safe cars. To a point of course.

It’s why people are afraid of flying even though it is much safer than driving. They don’t feel in control.

Winner. This is what a logical, intelligent poster posts. No value judgments on how "tech challenged" and "dumb" the mASSes are. Thank you. If our politicians from All over the spectrum had this mindset, we'd get right to the point of what is holding us back.
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MU82

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 11:06:59 PM »
People would rather be in control even if it results in less safe cars. To a point of course.

It’s why people are afraid of flying even though it is much safer than driving. They don’t feel in control.

Was thinking the same thing, sultan.

It will not be easy to convince the vast majority of the American public, but it seems inevitable to happen eventually.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 07:26:17 AM »
Was thinking the same thing, sultan.

It will not be easy to convince the vast majority of the American public, but it seems inevitable to happen eventually.

Remember how this is rolling it ... it will first come to the city centers (i.e., Manhattan).  Once you it is successful, they will ban all human traffic (and parking which is the key to getting rid of congestion) and it will spread from there.  By the time it gets to the areas the Luddites live in, they will have died off in enough numbers that they will be a minority.

Note - how you feel about driving is determined by two things ... how old you are, younger prefer driverless, and how densely populated (read urban) is your neighborhood, more densely populated the more you want driverless.

So again, most of the comments here are not about driverless cars, they are about the posters age and where they live (this includes my comments).


mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 07:45:22 AM »
Serious Q .. place your bets, what year will the Toyota Corolla have autonomous driving as standard equipment?

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2018, 03:50:18 PM »
Remember how this is rolling it ... it will first come to the city centers (i.e., Manhattan).  Once you it is successful, they will ban all human traffic (and parking which is the key to getting rid of congestion) and it will spread from there.  By the time it gets to the areas the Luddites live in, they will have died off in enough numbers that they will be a minority.

Note - how you feel about driving is determined by two things ... how old you are, younger prefer driverless, and how densely populated (read urban) is your neighborhood, more densely populated the more you want driverless.

So again, most of the comments here are not about driverless cars, they are about the posters age and where they live (this includes my comments).

And of course, anyone who is not enlightened enough to live in the city is an old, simpleton Luddite who needs to die. Got it. OPRAH 2020!
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2018, 06:17:40 AM »
And of course, anyone who is not enlightened enough to live in the city is an old, simpleton Luddite who needs to die. Got it. OPRAH 2020!

Correct

mu03eng

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2018, 06:43:57 AM »
Serious Q .. place your bets, what year will the Toyota Corolla have autonomous driving as standard equipment?

2025......data infrastructure won't be in place until then to support mass distribution of driverless cars.


Side note, driverless cars will likely be the death of auto dealerships as well. Maybe a family will own a single car, but more likely cars will be owned by Uber/Lyft/New Ride Share company and people will simply schedule a car to pick them up and take them where they are going.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2018, 06:46:12 AM »
Serious Q .. place your bets, what year will the Toyota Corolla have autonomous driving as standard equipment?

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/cars-that-are-almost-self-driving

Here is what we have now (level 3 autonomous)

2017 E-class Mercedes(drive pilot)
2018 BMW 5-Series
2018 Volvo XC60
2017 Tesla model S (auto pilot)
2018 Cadillac CT6 (super cruise)
2017 Tesla model X
2019 Audi A-8 (traffic Jam Pilot)

The best of the lot are Audi and Tesla

https://mashable.com/2017/07/11/2019-audi-a8/#dbF8pQWLTOqL

The cheapest level 2 autonomous is the 2016 Honda Civic $21k plus the Honda sensing option for $1k

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thrillist.com/amphtml/cars/nation/self-driving-cars-for-sale-now

Honda was a late entry into the semi-autonomous driving game, but arrived in a big way when it introduced the 2016 Civic Sedan and Coupe earlier this year. For just a grand, you can buy into the eponymous "Honda Sensing," which is an entire suite of safety technology and driver-assistance features. It’s a little less advanced than a traffic jam assist system, but the Civic can guide its way around a corner and ease the strain of ceaseless city traffic just fine.

——-

Now to answer your question...

Toyota is behind other car companies is autonomous driving so it will be a few years.

But if you are really asking when will a cheap car for the masses have self-driving, the answer is two years ago with the Honda Civic.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:48:37 AM by Tugg Speedman »

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2018, 06:53:25 AM »
But if you are really asking when will a cheap car for the masses have self-driving, the answer is two years ago with the Honda Civic.
Once again, you display that you don't understand the difference between autonomous driving and a simple safety feature.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2018, 07:02:34 AM »
Once again, you display that you don't understand the difference between autonomous driving and a simple safety feature.


Their are six levels of autonomous driving

https://newatlas.com/sae-autonomous-levels-definition-self-driving/49947/

Safety features is not a level, it is something you made up.

We are currently at level 2 and level 3 in current production models.

Why don’t you actually educate yourself on this topic before you hurl insults.

And since your slow.... what level of autonomous driving are you referring to? (Remember, google is your friend)

StillAWarrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2018, 07:55:02 AM »

Their are six levels of autonomous driving

https://newatlas.com/sae-autonomous-levels-definition-self-driving/49947/

Safety features is not a level, it is something you made up.

We are currently at level 2 and level 3 in current production models.

Why don’t you actually educate yourself on this topic before you hurl insults.

And since your slow.... what level of autonomous driving are you referring to? (Remember, google is your friend)

You're arguing semantics; you know what he's referring to.  Context makes it pretty obvious that he's referring to a variety of features that were marketed as safety options by automakers for many years (e.g., adaptive cruise control, automatic braking, lane change notifications/corrections).  Now that full autonomous driving is much closer to being a thing, a new language is developing around it and these things are being called "level 1" autonomous driving (and bleeding into level 2).

I've said this before on this topic:  you are obviously knowledgeable and bring a lot to the discussion.  It's a shame you always have to be so pedantic to try to prove how much you know.
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ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2018, 08:02:27 AM »

Their are six levels of autonomous driving

https://newatlas.com/sae-autonomous-levels-definition-self-driving/49947/

Safety features is not a level, it is something you made up.

We are currently at level 2 and level 3 in current production models.

Why don’t you actually educate yourself on this topic before you hurl insults.

And since your slow.... what level of autonomous driving are you referring to? (Remember, google is your friend)
Ok. Whatever you say.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2018, 08:40:16 AM »
Agree with your detractors, Tugg.   So many of the "Level 2" items are what I would consider safety features, rarely being used.  You might disagree, but .. all semantics.

Since most of us do not consider something like "adaptive cruise" or collision braking as anything but an occasional gadget to use, when we discuss "auto driving" we mean at a minimum, Level 3.   I looked at the Honda Civic's system -- it's an OPTION, not standard, like I asked in my query -- and it's clearly level 2, and frankly items I wouldn't pay for myself, let alone other consumers.

So,  I'll restate the question .. what year will a common $17-23k car (Corolla, Civic, Cruise, Focus, Fiesta, etc) car have Level 3 auto-driving as a standard feature, not an upsold option.  I suppose trucks could be a part of that question too, as the F-150 is top selling vehicle. (Wow, $27k for the cheapest.)

Even the Tesla Model 3 .. $35k base price .. the auto-pilot package is a $5k option, doesn't check the box.  Some day it'll be a standard feature .. I'll bet the price is in the $45k range by then -- (admittedly not Elon Musk's vision of a mass market auto car.)


StillAWarrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2018, 09:07:24 AM »
Agree with your detractors, Tugg.   So many of the "Level 2" items are what I would consider safety features, rarely being used.  You might disagree, but .. all semantics.

Since most of us do not consider something like "adaptive cruise" or collision braking as anything but an occasional gadget to use, when we discuss "auto driving" we mean at a minimum, Level 3.   I looked at the Honda Civic's system -- it's an OPTION, not standard, like I asked in my query -- and it's clearly level 2, and frankly items I wouldn't pay for myself, let alone other consumers.

So,  I'll restate the question .. what year will a common $17-23k car (Corolla, Civic, Cruise, Focus, Fiesta, etc) car have Level 3 auto-driving as a standard feature, not an upsold option.  I suppose trucks could be a part of that question too, as the F-150 is top selling vehicle. (Wow, $27k for the cheapest.)

Even the Tesla Model 3 .. $35k base price .. the auto-pilot package is a $5k option, doesn't check the box.  Some day it'll be a standard feature .. I'll bet the price is in the $45k range by then -- (admittedly not Elon Musk's vision of a mass market auto car.)

Yeah, when someone uses the phrase "autonomous driving" (as you did), they typically have something more in mind than the features we've been seeing for years on higher end cars and more recently on lower end cars (i.e., level 1/2 stuff).  And even more so for the phrase "self-driving" as Tugg used in his post.  I'd venture a guess that very few people would consider the Honda Civic as "autonomous driving" or "self-driving" even if equipped with all the best options available.

If all it takes to qualify as "autonomous" or "self-driving" is to fit into one of the categories on that list, I'm guess my Level 0 1973 VW Bug was much more advanced than I realized.

In common parlance, I think most people referring to "autonomous" or "self-driving" are referring to at least Level 3.
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Benny B

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2018, 09:52:31 AM »
Yeah, when someone uses the phrase "autonomous driving" (as you did), they typically have something more in mind than the features we've been seeing for years on higher end cars and more recently on lower end cars (i.e., level 1/2 stuff).  And even more so for the phrase "self-driving" as Tugg used in his post.  I'd venture a guess that very few people would consider the Honda Civic as "autonomous driving" or "self-driving" even if equipped with all the best options available.

If all it takes to qualify as "autonomous" or "self-driving" is to fit into one of the categories on that list, I'm guess my Level 0 1973 VW Bug was much more advanced than I realized.

In common parlance, I think most people referring to "autonomous" or "self-driving" are referring to at least Level 3.

The conversations I've had regarding "autonomous" cars are always in reference to levels 4 or 5, i.e. if you can't sit in the backseat and let the car drive you where you want to go, it isn't autonomous.

Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2018, 10:34:17 AM »
The conversations I've had regarding "autonomous" cars are always in reference to levels 4 or 5, i.e. if you can't sit in the backseat and let the car drive you where you want to go, it isn't autonomous.

Well, you're clearly an ignorant fool who needs to educate himself.  Don't you know that cars with adaptive cruise control and/or park assist are (Level 1) autonomous?!!
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2018, 10:54:36 AM »
If you can take your hands off the steering wheel, or the car take control from you in certain instances, isn't that autonomous driving?  Isn't that level 3, which is now being sold as an option in high-end cars?  Even in the 2016 Honda Civic with "Honda Sensing", it will drive around corners without your hands on the wheel.

So, the answer is two years ago.

Detractors will push back by using the most restrictive possible definition ... want to know when widespread adoption of level 5 is going to be a reality.  They know better, technology is about a fast evolution from 1.0 to 2.0 (or in this case from Level 0 to level 3 in production cars in about 10 years). 

So when is level 5 coming? Hard to know as Google and Waymo are only street testing level 4 right now (saw a Google autonomous car on Elston Avenue in Chicago a few months ago ... I know this because it said "Google Autonomous" Car" in large letters on the side.)

So, define what you think is an autonomous car and we can then discuss when it will arrive.  Like I said above, one could argue it was two years ago.

mu03eng

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2018, 11:43:41 AM »
If you can take your hands off the steering wheel, or the car take control from you in certain instances, isn't that autonomous driving?  Isn't that level 3, which is now being sold as an option in high-end cars?  Even in the 2016 Honda Civic with "Honda Sensing", it will drive around corners without your hands on the wheel.

So, the answer is two years ago.

Detractors will push back by using the most restrictive possible definition ... want to know when widespread adoption of level 5 is going to be a reality.  They know better, technology is about a fast evolution from 1.0 to 2.0 (or in this case from Level 0 to level 3 in production cars in about 10 years). 

So when is level 5 coming? Hard to know as Google and Waymo are only street testing level 4 right now (saw a Google autonomous car on Elston Avenue in Chicago a few months ago ... I know this because it said "Google Autonomous" Car" in large letters on the side.)

So, define what you think is an autonomous car and we can then discuss when it will arrive.  Like I said above, one could argue it was two years ago.

One actually can't argue it was two years ago, unless one is to also think one can argue that the moon is made of cheese because we haven't seen the whole moon.

Autonomous car is level 5. It requires no human intervention and it interacts cooperatively with other vehicles/environment. Current technology that is deployed in cars is "reactive" (hence most people think of it as safety equipment), for it to be truly autonomous it requires a proactive call and response with decisions being made by the system. Cars have to talk to each other and dynamically make decisions.

Any other position is simply one to hold for rhetorical impact (ie win a silly argument)
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mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2018, 01:21:00 PM »
Even in the 2016 Honda Civic with "Honda Sensing", it will drive around corners without your hands on the wheel.

So, the answer is two years ago.


Still false.  The question I posed was: "What year will the Toyota Corolla have autonomous driving as standard equipment?"

I'll accept the substitute of "Civic" for "Corolla" .. but the Honda system is an OPTION.

The litmus test being widespread adoption of Level 3 and over is because that's when the fun begins.  Robot insurance rates, less parking needs, and the ever fun mass layoffs of truck drivers, taxi/uber drivers.

Level 2 tech means I can occasionally get distracted and my car /might/ help me not kill myself.

And you know all this .. can't quite figure out why you are so adamant about a semantic discussion. 

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2018, 03:27:06 PM »
Still false.  The question I posed was: "What year will the Toyota Corolla have autonomous driving as standard equipment?"

I'll accept the substitute of "Civic" for "Corolla" .. but the Honda system is an OPTION.

The litmus test being widespread adoption of Level 3 and over is because that's when the fun begins.  Robot insurance rates, less parking needs, and the ever fun mass layoffs of truck drivers, taxi/uber drivers.

Level 2 tech means I can occasionally get distracted and my car /might/ help me not kill myself.

And you know all this .. can't quite figure out why you are so adamant about a semantic discussion.

Why false?  Honda Sensoring is between level 2 and level 3.

Level Two: Partial Automation
Hands off the wheel, eyes on the road. A level two vehicle has certain modes in which the car can take over both the pedals AND the wheel, but only under certain conditions, and the driver must maintain ultimate control over the vehicle. This is where Tesla's Autopilot has been at since 2014.

Level Three: Conditional Automation
Hands off the wheel, eyes off the road – sometimes. In a level 3 vehicle, the car has certain modes that will fully take over the driving responsibilities, under certain conditions, but a driver is expected to retake control when the system asks for it. This car can decide when to change lanes, and how to respond to dynamic incidents on the road, but uses the human driver as the fallback system. These are dangerous waters in terms of liability, and automakers are more or less trying to skip over it and move straight to level four.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thrillist.com/amphtml/cars/nation/self-driving-cars-for-sale-now

Honda was a late entry into the semi-autonomous driving game, but arrived in a big way when it introduced the 2016 Civic Sedan and Coupe earlier this year. For just a grand, you can buy into the eponymous "Honda Sensing," which is an entire suite of safety technology and driver-assistance features. It’s a little less advanced than a traffic jam assist system, but the Civic can guide its way around a corner and ease the strain of ceaseless city traffic just fine.

So, are you arguing the Civic with Honda Sesnoring is not an autonomous car?  Are you among those that argue level 5 is the only definition of autonomous car and everything else is merely a "safety feature."

Otherwise, if you agree that Honda sensoring is an autonomous car, are you narrowly asking when an optional feature will become a standard feature?


mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2018, 04:17:33 PM »
Why false?  Honda Sensoring is between level 2 and level 3.
...
So, are you arguing the Civic with Honda Sesnoring is not an autonomous car?  Are you among those that argue level 5 is the only definition of autonomous car and everything else is merely a "safety feature."

Otherwise, if you agree that Honda sensoring is an autonomous car, are you narrowly asking when an optional feature will become a standard feature?

No, I'm not arguing the Civic w/HS is not an auto-car, as I didn't say that.  It's level 2 or 2.5 or whatever.

No, I'm not arguing Level 5 is the only definition.

Feel free to take another crack at it -- or not.

What year will a common, low priced vehicle fulfill all level 3 elements as a standard option the buyer cannot opt out of.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2018, 05:05:22 PM »
No, I'm not arguing the Civic w/HS is not an auto-car, as I didn't say that.  It's level 2 or 2.5 or whatever.

No, I'm not arguing Level 5 is the only definition.

Feel free to take another crack at it -- or not.

What year will a common, low priced vehicle fulfill all level 3 elements as a standard option the buyer cannot opt out of.

The Tesla model 3 will have level 3 autonomy.  Base price is $35k, supposed to hit the road later this year. (US average car price is $32k)

Does this count?

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2018, 05:35:35 PM »

tower912

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 06:57:06 PM »
If they are ever delivered,  the average Tesla 3 will  cost $50K+.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2018, 10:39:30 AM »
Tugg, legit curious, what is your guess for my question?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2018, 10:55:31 AM »
Tugg, legit curious, what is your guess for my question?

Level 3 ... within 5 years.

Level 4 on the road that can be bought ... three years.

Level 4 will come to Semis first, Tesla is building an electric semi with level 4.  If they pull it off, it will be a game changer for the long-haul trucking business.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2018, 07:35:31 AM »
Axios got a hold of a White House document that says they are considering nationalizing the upcoming 5G network.

5G is a mobile network expected to run at 10 to 20 gig/s, or 10x to 20x faster than the fastest cable speed currently available (now 1 gig/s)

Scoop: Trump team considers nationalizing 5G network
https://www.axios.com/trump-team-debates-nationalizing-5g-network-f1e92a49-60f2-4e3e-acd4-f3eb03d910ff.html

The main points: The documents say America needs a centralized nationwide 5G network within three years. There'll be a fierce debate inside the Trump administration — and an outcry from the industry — over the next 6-8 months over how such a network is built and paid for.

The bigger picture: The memo argues that a strong 5G network is needed in order to create a secure pathway for emerging technologies like self-driving cars and virtual reality — and to combat Chinese threats to America’s economic and cyber security. A PowerPoint slide says the play is the digital counter to China’s One Belt One Road Initiative meant to spread its influence beyond its borders. The documents also fret about China's dominance of Artificial Intelligence, and use that as part of the rationale for this unprecedented proposal.


----------------

Critical to the future of networked self-driving cars in the upcoming 5G mobile network, currently under construction.  So important are self-driving cars, and keeping this network secure, that the White House specifically cited self-driving cars as the reason it is considering the unprecedented step of nationalizing 5G in order to keep up with the Chinese and make sure this game-changing technology becomes reality.

Yes, nationalizing 5G is a very bad idea.  But the larger point is it is coming.  The entire technology infrastructure is being oriented around two things ... self-driving cars and cryptocurrencies.  These will lead to transformational changes in the economy and how we all live our lives, and make a living.

-------

Rant ....

So go ahead and say cryptos and a joke and no one will ever tear the steering wheel out of your hands. 

Then go read literature from 1900 to 1920 about the curmudgeon that was snarling motor traffic with his horse-drawn carriage because he refused to switch to a model T.  Further wonder what he was thinking when he kept his life savings in currencies in a box under his bed because he did not trust banks.  Then wonder how many here are the new millennium version of that guy.

Oh wait, you say, you fully acknowledge these technologies are coming but just think it will take longer than most think.  But you will fully embrace them when they get finally here.

Now go see the UIC post about urban millennials.  The reason companies like McDonald's are ditching OakBrook for the Fulton Market District of Chicago (detailed in that thread) is they represent the future of corporate America.

50+ baby boomers are now the problem.  They are all doing mental calculations of how many more years they need to work.  Yes, these technologies are coming.  But they think to themselves that they are (say) 55 and if they can continue to ignore change for another 5 to 7 years, they can retire at 62 in full comfort.  Then they convince themselves that this change will not happen fast enough so they can "beat the clock" and make it to 62 without changing and leave the 40 to 45 year old to sort out the new technological world.

This thinking is the big problem in corporate America.  These middle managers in their 50s are intentionally slowing down change for their own selfish reason, they want to remain relevant.  They fear this change means they are out of a job (which is not true if they really understood it). So while companies like McDonald's will not lay them off, McD is moving on, down to the Millennial Urban area and telling the baby boomer managers they are welcome to get on the train and "keep up."  Otherwise, they can retire now.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 07:38:03 AM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2018, 09:58:37 AM »
The average life of an office building or shopping Mall is 50+ years.  Have to assume that in 30 years (if not sooner), all cars are autonomous.  So how does one build with convenient parking now (which is necessary) but not have that parking turn into a money wasting eyesore when the world is full of level 5 autonomous cars?

This is a real challenge for the real estate/architecture industry.

Does this mean Woodfield gets torn down within 30 years?  That massive parking lot will be an expensive eyesore.  What does Water Tower do when the massive basement garage becomes worthless (and the loss of that revenue)?


January 30, 2018
The Wall Street Journal
Say Goodbye to Garages as Developers Imagine a Driverless Future
Developers are starting to build parking garages that can be converted to office space or apartments down the road
https://www.wsj.com/articles/say-goodbye-to-garages-as-developers-imagine-a-driverless-future-1517317200


Mass adoption of driverless cars is still years away, but architects, developers and planners already are designing new projects with autonomous vehicles in mind.

Developers are starting to build offices with internal parking structures that can be converted to office space if demand for private parking decreases. New master-planned projects in cities like Toronto, Los Angeles, Oslo, San Francisco and Boston are being designed with features like curbside drop-off areas for passengers and e-commerce deliveries that replace traditional parking lanes.

“The term that we’re hearing over and over again is ‘future-proof,’” said Jeffrey Shumaker, director of Urban Planning and Design at architecture firm Kohn Pedersen Fox Associates in New York.

Novel ideas are being floated for the distant future as well as the messy transitional years until mass adoption of driverless vehicles is complete. For example, Gensler already is looking at ways to free up green space in housing developments by replacing driveways with common storage areas for autonomous vehicles.


Tugg Speedman

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2018, 10:03:04 AM »
Cool video on the link

Forget Self-Driving Cars, Robot Delivery Vans Are Here
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/nuro-has-built-a-robot-van-to-deliver-your-stuff

The future of driverless driving looks like a giant toaster with a funny hat.

That’s an approximation of a new autonomous vehicle unveiled Tuesday by Nuro, a Silicon Valley startup that’s been cryptic about its business plan since it launched about 18 months ago. Nuro’s shiny, minimalist appliance on wheels doesn’t have doors or windows to speak of, because it will be carrying packages—not people.

As every major automaker and dozens of tech companies race to replace drivers in Uber cars and taxi fleets, Nuro is ignoring humans altogether and steering for Amazon.com Inc., United Parcel Service Inc. and any retailer looking to build its e-commerce business. “We realized we could make it possible to deliver anything, anytime, anywhere,” said co-founder Dave Ferguson. “We like to call it a local teleportation service.”



mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2018, 10:16:16 AM »

buckchuckler

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2018, 10:20:57 AM »
Interesting.  Obviously, such incidents are pretty much inevitable.  But, honestly, each one will provide important information that will help advance the technology.  Remember, the bar isn't set very high -- lots of people are really crappy drivers.  I'd be curious to know the "accidents-per-mile-driven" number for these cars as compared to humans.

I believe the safest combination has proven to be human drivers paired with the advanced safety technology, such as forward radar sensors, blind spot monitors and lane departure warnings. 

On a related note, I believe the penalty for texting while driving should be the same as drunk driving. 

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2018, 10:33:10 AM »
I believe the safest combination has proven to be human drivers paired with the advanced safety technology, such as forward radar sensors, blind spot monitors and lane departure warnings. 

On a related note, I believe the penalty for texting while driving should be the same as drunk driving.

There would literally not be enough room in prisons to incarcerate every single person who texts and drives.

SaveOD238

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2018, 10:43:53 AM »
On a related note, I believe the penalty for texting while driving should be the same as drunk driving.

In Wisconsin, that means a ticket, at least for a first time offender.

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2018, 02:08:05 PM »
There would literally not be enough room in prisons to incarcerate every single person who texts and drives.

True, but if we treated them like drunk drivers (aren't they every bit as dangerous?) there would be a huge drop in their number - and it wouldn't take long.

Benny B

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2018, 03:56:16 AM »
True, but if we treated them like drunk drivers (aren't they every bit as dangerous?) there would be a huge drop in their number - and it wouldn't take long.

We should probably start retesting seniors every year then.  I would argue that most anyone over the age of 70 is more dangerous than an experienced driver in their 40’s on their phone.  Even if the level of impairment due to age is 20% and impairment due to phoning is 60%, I’ll take my chances with the intermittent 60 than the constant 20.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2018, 06:42:50 AM »
We should probably start retesting seniors every year then.  I would argue that most anyone over the age of 70 is more dangerous than an experienced driver in their 40’s on their phone.  Even if the level of impairment due to age is 20% and impairment due to phoning is 60%, I’ll take my chances with the intermittent 60 than the constant 20.

This.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2018, 08:56:59 AM »
No, I'm not arguing the Civic w/HS is not an auto-car, as I didn't say that.  It's level 2 or 2.5 or whatever.

No, I'm not arguing Level 5 is the only definition.

Feel free to take another crack at it -- or not.

What year will a common, low priced vehicle fulfill all level 3 elements as a standard option the buyer cannot opt out of.

Depends on when 5G gets fully rolled out.  2022 Would be my guess.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 09:01:59 AM »
In Wisconsin, that means a ticket, at least for a first time offender.

Oh, honey.

The percentage of people texting and driving is extremely high.  The amount of people being pulled over or caught doing it is extremely small.

I still like my idea that anyone in an at fault accident gets their phone record pulled and if it can be proven that the offender was using their phone in ANY way, the fine doubles and the point demerits double.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2018, 10:17:03 AM »
The percentage of people texting and driving is extremely high. 

"We" should stop using the phrase "texting and driving" which by definition is "writing a text via SMS."

Actual writing a text via SMS is a fraction of what you can do on your phone that steals your attention while driving.

Reading texts, facebook, twitter.  Finding a Pandora station to play.  Checking a map.  Looking at photos, snapchat, iMessage.  Googling something, the weather, ad infinitum.

Something I'm guilty of is using Waze.   

Depends on when 5G gets fully rolled out.  2022 Would be my guess.

I don't see why self-driving and 5G is linked.    Better connectivity will make it better, but .. hell, we don't have 3G in some parts of the country.    5G needs far more towers .. gonna be forever before it's reliable, and probably never will be, just like the spotty networks we have now.

No way in hell would I trust a self-driving unit that needed cell connectivity to operate properly.

jesmu84

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2018, 11:00:54 AM »
"We" should stop using the phrase "texting and driving" which by definition is "writing a text via SMS."

Actual writing a text via SMS is a fraction of what you can do on your phone that steals your attention while driving.

Reading texts, facebook, twitter.  Finding a Pandora station to play.  Checking a map.  Looking at photos, snapchat, iMessage.  Googling something, the weather, ad infinitum.

Something I'm guilty of is using Waze.   


My question is why have phones been demonized in this way? Shouldn't it all fall under the purview of reckless driving? It should include putting on makeup, messing with the radio/whatever, eating/drinking... basically anything that distracts from the road. And all of those should be punished equally, IMO.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2018, 11:21:38 AM »
My question is why have phones been demonized in this way? Shouldn't it all fall under the purview of reckless driving? It should include putting on makeup, messing with the radio/whatever, eating/drinking... basically anything that distracts from the road. And all of those should be punished equally, IMO.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that ..  I think it's because all that other stuff existed 20+ years ago.   Cell phones octupled the rate of distracted driving.  If we could "just" get a handle on that ...

forgetful

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2018, 11:28:46 AM »
My question is why have phones been demonized in this way? Shouldn't it all fall under the purview of reckless driving? It should include putting on makeup, messing with the radio/whatever, eating/drinking... basically anything that distracts from the road. And all of those should be punished equally, IMO.

Honestly, that is why we need automated driving.  People are always going to be distracted, and accidents will happen because of it.  Take the human out of the equation. 

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2018, 11:30:57 AM »
Honestly, that is why we need automated driving.  People are always going to be distracted, and accidents will happen because of it.  Take the human out of the equation.

Hopefully that means they can raise the speed limits then.

Just the thought of having to go 55 MPH on 94 is already stressing me out.

forgetful

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2018, 11:48:21 AM »
Hopefully that means they can raise the speed limits then.

Just the thought of having to go 55 MPH on 94 is already stressing me out.

Curious as to how much vehicle speed limits data accuracy as a function of internet/data speed.  My guess is as vehicles are moving faster, the requisite read/write of data also needs to increase.  I wonder if that is limiting at all.

brewcity77

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2018, 12:16:58 PM »
Hopefully that means they can raise the speed limits then.

Just the thought of having to go 55 MPH on 94 is already stressing me out.

Unless you are traveling great distances, driving over the speed limit makes negligible differences in arrival time. Especially when you get up to the higher speeds (55/65/75) because the percent of speed increased by going 10 mph over becomes less significant as the speed limit goes up.

If you're going 15 miles, the difference in arrival time between 55 & 65 is less than 3 minutes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/lifehacker.com/does-speeding-really-get-you-there-any-faster-1556767685/amp
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Benny B

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2018, 11:51:24 AM »
Oh, honey.

The percentage of people texting and driving is extremely high.  The amount of people being pulled over or caught doing it is extremely small.

I still like my idea that anyone in an at fault accident gets their phone record pulled and if it can be proven that the offender was using their phone in ANY way, the fine doubles and the point demerits double.

I like where you're going with this, but to pull records for every single accident might be a little overreaching, privacy-wise, i.e. the potential harm to the public doesn't outweigh the harm to one's privacy.  Plus, if you simply go by "blind" phone/data usage - i.e. all you see is an "on/off" indication, not who they were talking to or what data was being streamed - imagine the difficulty of proving the person wasn't using CarPlay, Waze, or talking hands-free.

That being said, if there's a critical injury or a fatality involved, typically phone records are being pulled any way, aren't they?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

buckchuckler

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Re: Self-driving Tesla hits fire truck
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2018, 12:37:37 AM »
We should probably start retesting seniors every year then.  I would argue that most anyone over the age of 70 is more dangerous than an experienced driver in their 40’s on their phone.  Even if the level of impairment due to age is 20% and impairment due to phoning is 60%, I’ll take my chances with the intermittent 60 than the constant 20.

I'll take the old people on sheer numbers.  Not to mention the 16-20 year olds that are bad drivers and on their phones.

The danger is that you are constantly surrounded by the intermittent 60.  Even while they are going 75 mph on the highway.

 

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