Haanif Gone

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Its nothing like a guarantee, though, is it?  Asking because I honestly don't know.  Dawson didn't get one with an even better case than Cohen.  Cohen was an end of the bench guy and Cheatham is a starter getting starter minutes.  Why would he qualify for a waiver?  If he gets a waiver and 1.5 years eligibility at his new school, at least the decision to leave MU makes sense.  If he doesn't get a waiver I do not see how it does anything but hurt Cheatham.

Honestly wasn't talking about Cheatham. I was talking about the three other Big East players who transferred before the first game. I have no idea what the criteria is for this waiver. It seems very random from the outside looking in.

[KampusFoods]

One of the things this board seems to forget is that transfers work both ways. Since Wojo has come here, we've had several well-known transfers out. Consider, however, that we've also had the following:

Matt Carlino -- Year 1
Katlin Reinhardt -- Year 3
Harry Froeling -- This Year
Ed Morrow -- Next Year

Keep in mind that all of these people have been starters for us. Carlino and Reinhardt were the inbound equivalent of Duane Wilson's outbound.

The morale: these things happen. I question whether college basketball players are any different than general students, who also transfer for loads of reasons that don't always make sense either.

Again, wish Haani well and let's move on.

Rowsey, too.

[GGGG]

I think 'this board' gets it...but you can't have transfers work both ways and have a perceived issue of being perpetually young.  IMO roster construction is getting better but still an issue for Wojo.  Solving that + finding a workable defense is the difference between him being successful or not over the next 2 years.

Is being "perpetually young" a perception issue?  Or is it an actually issue?

To me the main issue is that we should want to have a core group of four year players with transfers out if they can't handle it, and transfers in to cover weaknesses.  We haven't got there yet.  Maybe we are saying the same thing though.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Is being "perpetually young" a perception issue?  Or is it an actually issue?

I don't know as I haven't seen the data - it may be and seems logical -- many here say it is an actual issue.  I am tempted to get a KenPom subscription to see what the numbers say.

There are many strategies to have a workable roster.  I actually don't care which one is being used by a coach if it works.  I personally question if the '4 year core' is achievable in today's game, but I would have no problem with it.

[skianth16]

One of the things this board seems to forget is that transfers work both ways. Since Wojo has come here, we've had several well-known transfers out. Consider, however, that we've also had the following:

Matt Carlino -- Year 1
Katlin Reinhardt -- Year 3
Harry Froeling -- This Year
Ed Morrow -- Next Year

Keep in mind that all of these people have been starters for us. Carlino and Reinhardt were the inbound equivalent of Duane Wilson's outbound.

The morale: these things happen. I question whether college basketball players are any different than general students, who also transfer for loads of reasons that don't always make sense either.

Again, wish Haani well and let's move on.

You're right that we've gotten some good transfers, but the bigger concern for me about guys leaving is that we've had too many leave during the season. Cheatham, Carter, Dawson, and Burton have all left mid-season on Wojo. That, to me, is a much bigger deal and more of an issue than a guy who decides to leave in between basketball seasons. I can't be alone in thinking this, can I?

[Pakuni]

You're right that we've gotten some good transfers, but the bigger concern for me about guys leaving is that we've had too many leave during the season. Cheatham, Carter, Dawson, and Burton have all left mid-season on Wojo. That, to me, is a much bigger deal and more of an issue than a guy who decides to leave in between basketball seasons. I can't be alone in thinking this, can I?

Why is it a "much bigger issue" to you?

[mug644]

I think 'this board' gets it...but you can't have transfers work both ways and have a perceived issue of being perpetually young.  IMO roster construction is getting better but still an issue for Wojo.  Solving that + finding a workable defense is the difference between him being successful or not over the next 2 years.

Is being "perpetually young" a perception issue?  Or is it an actually issue?

To me the main issue is that we should want to have a core group of four year players with transfers out if they can't handle it, and transfers in to cover weaknesses.  We haven't got there yet.  Maybe we are saying the same thing though.

I think the challenge is the unpredictability of it. While I tended to feel that being perpetually young is an issue, this conversation is pointing out that it's the gaps left by players transferring out that may have the biggest impact. Transfers in don't immediately solve that gap, unless they are graduate transfers with immediately eligibility. Mid-season transfers inevitably create gaps.

[GGGG]

You're right that we've gotten some good transfers, but the bigger concern for me about guys leaving is that we've had too many leave during the season. Cheatham, Carter, Dawson, and Burton have all left mid-season on Wojo. That, to me, is a much bigger deal and more of an issue than a guy who decides to leave in between basketball seasons. I can't be alone in thinking this, can I?

I'd rather have them leave early so it still allows for more time to recruit a late signee (like Ellllllliottttttttt)

[skianth16]

Why is it a "much bigger issue" to you?

It seems to me that if a guy leaves mid-season, he's so upset about the way things are going that he can't even finish the year. He'd rather walk out and give up the rest of the year than deal with the situation any longer. Transferring between seasons seems like more of a planned transition, while the mid-year transfers seem like they're more knee-jerk. One of those can be attributed to a loose cannon type of player, but a consistent string gives me concerns about what's going on inside the program. I don't know the numbers, but I'd think that the number of mid-year transfers is much smaller than the number of off-season transfers.

[skianth16]

I'd rather have them leave early so it still allows for more time to recruit a late signee (like Ellllllliottttttttt)

I'd rather have them announce that they're leaving in April so we have as much time as possible to recruit the best available talent. Leaving in the middle (or at the beginning) of the season leaves us with a hole in the roster that can't be filled. I would never take that option.

[Silkk the Shaka]

You're right that we've gotten some good transfers, but the bigger concern for me about guys leaving is that we've had too many leave during the season. Cheatham, Carter, Dawson, and Burton have all left mid-season on Wojo. That, to me, is a much bigger deal and more of an issue than a guy who decides to leave in between basketball seasons. I can't be alone in thinking this, can I?

I think Wojo uses the non-con to figure out who he'll want to be in the 8-9 man rotation come second semester. Once that's figured out, it seems like he's honest with guys about where they fit into that plan. Some then cut and run if they don't like what they hear. C'est la vie. I think it's best for the long-term health of the program and the player that everyone knows where he stands at all times.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Why is it a "much bigger issue" to you?

Because it leaves the team short handed with no ability to add players.  It shows the perhaps Wojo has a tough time keeping everyone pleased.  It shows that perhaps Wojo has a tough time convincing guys that staying through the season is better for all parties, including the player. 

Not being negative - but having 5 guys transfer midseason in 4 years is alot, no matter which way you slice it. Haani transferring after the year would have been much better for the program, and for Hanni.

[Lennys Tap]

I think Wojo uses the non-con to figure out who he'll want to be in the 8-9 man rotation come second semester. Once that's figured out, it seems like he's honest with guys about where they fit into that plan. Some then cut and run if they don't like what they hear. C'est la vie. I think it's best for the long-term health of the program and the player that everyone knows where he stands at all times.

Agree with your assessment. We have a team of role players and it's not uncommon for role players to overvalue themselves. When that happens (see Haanif) unhappiness ensues.

[Pakuni]

Because it leaves the team short handed with no ability to add players.  It shows the perhaps Wojo has a tough time keeping everyone pleased.  It shows that perhaps Wojo has a tough time convincing guys that staying through the season is better for all parties, including the player. 

The first point is a fair one, though outside of Haanif and Deonte, I'm not sure the other midseason transfers (Dawson and Carter) really had much negative impact. Dawson was playing 4 mpg when he left and Traci was losing PT to Markus and Rowsey.
The others points don't worry me. Every coach has a tough time keeping everyone pleased. That's why there were nearly 900 transfers last year.

Haani transferring after the year would have been much better for the program, and for Hanni.

A little presumptuous to say it would have been better for Cheatham, given the stated reasons for his departure.

[MomofMUltiples]

Once a kid makes up his mind that he wants/"needs" to be elsewhere, I would rather have him leave than be a poor teammate with one foot out the door and his head somewhere else. 

Haani would've helped us the second half of the season, and I am sorry he has left the program.  I'm especially sorry because now I'm going to have to listen to many of you kvetch for the rest of the season about Wojo's inability to keep players along with his inability to coach defense, yada yada yada.  And if you get your wish and Wojo is gone (which is, I believe, nowhere close to happening), you will simply bitch and complain about the next coach when Markus and Sam decide to transfer and Joey and Brendan decommit.  Think about what you are wishing for, people!

[GurneeHitchkr]

"Think about what you are wishing for, people!"

Amen to that.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

The first point is a fair one, though outside of Haanif and Deonte, I'm not sure the other midseason transfers (Dawson and Carter) really had much negative impact. Dawson was playing 4 mpg when he left and Traci was losing PT to Markus and Rowsey.
The others points don't worry me. Every coach has a tough time keeping everyone pleased. That's why there were nearly 900 transfers last year.

A little presumptuous to say it would have been better for Cheatham, given the stated reasons for his departure.

Dawson and Carters both burned 25% of their college eligibility.  Not sure how you can spin that anyway that was a positive for their basketball careers.

Regarding your last sentence, I am referring to strictly basketball reasons.  The "personal reasons" seem a little wishywashy...nothing about such on Haani's social media posts or comments, and Wojo's post game presser comments seemed like he was almost mocking the "personal reasons". 

Whatever...is what it is.

[MU82]

Once a kid makes up his mind that he wants/"needs" to be elsewhere, I would rather have him leave than be a poor teammate with one foot out the door and his head somewhere else. 

This. Nicely said. I don't want unhappy players on the team or in the locker room.

Now, maybe Wojo could do more as a coach so that players don't become unhappy. I don't know about that, and neither does anybody else here. But if a guy can't suck it up and be a team guy for the second half of the season - as Duane was last year - see ya! (Not saying this specifically about Haani, who might have had family-related reasons for leaving; we don't know the truth yet.)

[Pakuni]

Dawson and Carters both burned 25% of their college eligibility.  Not sure how you can spin that anyway that was a positive for their basketball careers.

I didn't spin that as a positive for their basketball careers. I said nothing about their basketball careers. I said their leaving at midseason didn't have much negative impact for Marquette.

I think you're trying super hard to read things into Wojo's comments that aren't there. Scratch that ... not his comments, but the manner in which you think those comments were delivered.

[skianth16]

Haani would've helped us the second half of the season, and I am sorry he has left the program.  I'm especially sorry because now I'm going to have to listen to many of you kvetch for the rest of the season about Wojo's inability to keep players along with his inability to coach defense, yada yada yada.  And if you get your wish and Wojo is gone (which is, I believe, nowhere close to happening), you will simply bitch and complain about the next coach when Markus and Sam decide to transfer and Joey and Brendan decommit.  Think about what you are wishing for, people!

Wishing for a coach that understands defense and can effectively stop an opponent when he needs to is reasonable. Wishing to have a coach that players are committed to is also something I find to be reasonable. Defending Wojo's glaring inadequacies as a head coach, on the other hand, I find perplexing.

The view that he's a good long-term prospect as a coach and will bring the program back to a highly competitive place in the near future, despite his current struggles is perfectly fine. But there's no need to ignore the reality that he is still dealing with some very real growing pains as a head coach.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I said their leaving at midseason didn't have much negative impact for Marquette.

ahh.  I misread your comment as "no negative impact" as a player based comment, not on MU. 

[muwarrior69]

Leaving mid-season hurts the player more than the team/program. They lose 2 semesters of eligibility or must sit out for 3 semesters to only lose one semester. The program/team can recruit a player, perhaps a better player, and have them ready to play next season. Not many players get a waiver.

[skianth16]

Leaving mid-season hurts the player more than the team/program. They lose 2 semesters of eligibility or must sit out for 3 semesters to only lose one semester. The program/team can recruit a player, perhaps a better player, and have them ready to play next season. Not many players get a waiver.

I don't know that I agree with this. We just lost at least 10% of our on-court minutes for the season when Cheatham left. That's a hole that we can't fill completely until next year. Losing a starter or key contributor mid-season is painful, especially when we knew we were in all likelihood striving to be a bubble team this year.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't know that I agree with this. We just lost at least 10% of our on-court minutes for the season when Cheatham left. That's a hole that we can't fill completely until next year. Losing a starter or key contributor mid-season is painful, especially when we knew we were in all likelihood striving to be a bubble team this year.

The statement was it hurts the player more than the team. Not that it doesn't hurt the team. Guy loses 25% of his eligibility by transferring mid season. We can replace some of his production he can't replace that eligibility. By that simple logic it hurts the player more than the team

[MU82]

I don't know that I agree with this. We just lost at least 10% of our on-court minutes for the season when Cheatham left. That's a hole that we can't fill completely until next year. Losing a starter or key contributor mid-season is painful, especially when we knew we were in all likelihood striving to be a bubble team this year.

It's an "if," I know, but what if the person who ends up getting most of those minutes - say, Elliott - ends up being a better player than Haani ... largely because he gets to play 28 minutes instead of the 13 he was averaging before Haani left?