3 UCLA Players arrested in China

[GGGG]

I may be dating myself here, but in the '80's the POSC definition (Thanks to Dr. Farmer, RIP) of a 3rd world country was any country not in NATO or the Warsaw Pact. China was in neither, so therefore a 3rd World Country. I believe the Warsaw Pact was disolved in the early '90's.

I believe the term is outdated as China has evolved, and the term may no longer relfect the current state of world affairs.

Actually under its original definition, China was part of the "second world."  That definition was not simply Warsaw Pact, but "Communist bloc" and included countries like Cuba and Vietnam as well.

[Dawson Rental]

What I support is treatment comparable to any other person who commits a similar crime in that situation without regard to celebrity or foreigner status.  Moreover, we here in the U.S. don't get to decide what that punishment is.  As an example, if one commits a drug crime in Mexico one faces a pretty unpleasant prison situation.  My response is 'don't be stupid'.  Now to the extent that something represents a material human rights issue, that's a different problem.

Whenever I post in a thread like this, I'm aware that its the verbal equivalent of handling nitro, so Im very careful how I say things.  In my post that you replied to I said that due to their celebrity status, they were likely to get treated differently, but not that they "should" be treated differently.

I don't think that it would be bad for that to be the outcome in this case, though.  To answer Bagpiper, its truly unfortunate that those without advantages would have to bear the full weight of these consequences.  I am of the belief that the US judical system has a more enlightened (and by enlightened, I also mean ultimately effective and fair) approach to handling this type of offense.

[B. McBannerson]

I may be dating myself here, but in the '80's the POSC definition (Thanks to Dr. Farmer, RIP) of a 3rd world country was any country not in NATO or the Warsaw Pact. China was in neither, so therefore a 3rd World Country. I believe the Warsaw Pact was disolved in the early '90's.

I believe the term is outdated as China has evolved, and the term may no longer relfect the current state of world affairs.

Dr. Farmer was great. RIP.   My recollection is he taught Sauvvy's three models.  China was 2nd world along with the USSR.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

[jsglow]

Whenever I post in a thread like this, I'm aware that its the verbal equivalent of handling nitro, so Im very careful how I say things.  In my post that you replied to I said that due to their celebrity status, they were likely to get treated differently, but not that they "should" be treated differently.

I don't think that it would be bad for that to be the outcome in this case, though.  To answer Bagpiper, its truly unfortunate that those without advantages would have to bear the full weight of these consequences.  I am of the belief that the US judical system has a more enlightened (and by enlightened, I also mean ultimately effective and fair) approach to handling this type of offense.

We're cool 4.   

[Dawson Rental]

Easy, deport them!

Agreed.  And not necessarily on a cushy plane flight.

[B. McBannerson]

I love the fact that we are all about 18-20 year olds "living with the consequences" in a foreign country while we sit in a country that has the 8th Amendment firmly in place.

The U.S. should be working to free any citizen that is facing conditions that 4everCrean detailed for a crime as minor as shoplifting.

Many of us have lived in foreign countries in the past or travel to them routinely now.  We are told what the rules are, what to avoid. Visit Singapore and the complete run down one receives about chewing gum, including confiscation of it. 

Something like stealing is fairly universal.  Then again, sometimes people of power, celeb, notoriety are able to do things without consequences or just plain stupidity.   Did it make it any different that J. Winston wasn't in a foreign country but thought not paying for crab legs was cool? 

[Loose Cannon]

Referencing  Dr  Phil   "Bad Behavior should not be rewarded consequent needed."

[Dawson Rental]

It was a defense?  How do you figure?  It was only stating what happens in other countries, show me the defense I made of those punishments.

Your defense of harsh penalties for stealing under Shira Law was implicit when you chosse to use them as an example to justify the penalties for first time shoplifting in China.

[GGGG]

Many of us have lived in foreign countries in the past or travel to them routinely now.  We are told what the rules are, what to avoid. Visit Singapore and the complete run down one receives about chewing gum, including confiscation of it. 

Something like stealing is fairly universal.  Then again, sometimes people of power, celeb, notoriety are able to do things without consequences or just plain stupidity.   Did it make it any different that J. Winston wasn't in a foreign country but thought not paying for crab legs was cool? 

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing here. 

What I am saying is that since the Bill of Rights is something we Americans believe in, that we should advocate for our citizens who are being punished for crimes in a manner that violates the 8th Amendment.  We shouldn't simply say "rules are rules."

[Goose]

They will walk and might be visiting China again anytime soon. Too high profile and highly, highly expect them to be a plane sooner than later. That said, I would lock them up!!!

[Galway Eagle]

You are correct that China is not a third world country, but I'll just put the following out there and let everyone decide for themselves if their prisions are comparable.  Maybe reading this you will get my point.  God, I hope you can.

   In the middle of the night the PSB took me to White Cloud District Detention Center in the city of Guangzhou, where I would spend the next 280 days. I was in shock and denial as I was processed and then taken down a long dank corridor to my cell. Opening the corridor door to cell B218 revealed an empty, moldy room the size of a racquetball court. As I was pushed inside I was full of terror. The corridor door closed and a side door to the "inner cell" opened, with native Chinese prisoners motioning me inward to the sleeping and working quarters.

            The inner cell was the same size but held 30 prisoners, all sleeping on the concrete floor. There were no blankets or pillows and the room was so crowded that most prisoners slept on their sides with arms draped over each other like embracing couples. Near the back was an older prisoner indicating he was making room for me to lie down. Dazed and confused, I crossed the cell like a cat, careful not to step on the heads, arms or bodies of other prisoners. My concussion and the long day of coercive interrogation had left me exhausted and I lay down to sleep.

            In Chinese jails, prisoners begin working on their first day of detention regardless of the circumstances. The right of having a phone call upon arrest is unheard of, and most have no contact with the outside world throughout the entire time they are incarcerated. Many are jailed for months without ever being formally charged, then released without going to trial.

            Each day at 6:30 a.m. the cell leader woke everyone by clapping his hands to begin another routine day. Thirty men lined up to brush their teeth while simultaneously using a single hole in the ground as our only toilet. After washing and using the toilet, prisoners arranged themselves in rows sitting cross-legged to chant communist slogans and recite detention regulations. Once the chanting was complete, prisoners would stand for an hour of military-style marching in place. Any who didn't enthusiastically chant or march briskly received beatings or various other types of punishment.

             Each cell was run by a gang who pushed work production through a series of rewards and punishments. While there was one leader, he surrounded himself with what we called "the lieutenants" – forming what we called "the regime." After work quotas were issued, prisoners would line the wall to assemble Christmas lights all day with two ten-minute breaks for lunch at 11:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. for dinner. No uniforms were issued, so most prisoners sat in their underwear. Later, in the shower, I noticed many prisoners had bedsores from long hours sitting on the concrete floor.

            Due to my mental state, shock and the dim lighting, I was unable to do even the simplest work tasks. As a foreigner and due to the language barrier, the leader gave me a little slack, but for native prisoners anything short of the 6,000-light quota per day would promptly be met with punishment.

            On my second day, our cell guard came to check on me. When any prison official visited, prisoners would squat on their heels and lock their hands behind their heads in a non-threatening position we called "the squat-n-lock." Noting my poor condition, the guard stated he would take me to the infirmary, but it was three days before he returned to our cell. Sometimes we wouldn't see a guard for 4-5 days, leaving us under the total control of the leader and his "regime."

            During the workday the regime would stroll around shouting "Kuai-dian" ("faster"). Anything from slow work production to a "wrong look" would bring a slap to the head or kick to the ribs. If slow production persisted or a prisoner back-talked, the regime would bring them to the front of the cell for a series of kicks, blows and punches.

            The most common punishment was withholding the daily ration of two hand-rolled cigarettes. If that didn't increase work production, prisoners would have their food rations cut in half. Each meal we were fed rice, turnips and a little pork fat, which tasted horrible but was enough to sustain life. A cut in food rations was devastating and I saw a few prisoners start to look skeletal.

            Much harsher punishment awaited prisoners who caused further problems or continued to fail to adjust. Along the floor of the cell were three bull rings. Prisoners who fought or rebelled were shackled and chained to the floor 24/7, from 3 days up to two weeks. When chained to the floor another prisoner would need to bring a bucket to use as a toilet. Also while chained, food and water rations were reduced, leaving some prisoners to wither near death.

            The worst punishment was reserved for the rare occasion when a prisoner disrespected a guard. Such prisoners were taken to an empty cell, chained to the floor, flogged with Christmas light cords and left for 2 to 3 days in solitary confinement without food. Usually the threat of no tobacco was enough to bring prisoners in line, and I was aware of only three floggings during the eight months I was incarcerated.

I'm not gonna argue whether Their system is humane or just because I️ don't believe it is. what I'm arguing is that people only care because their standing in our society. Nobody cares if an 18yr old drop out got a ticket to China and did the same thing. Second I'm arguing that if you go to another country you obey their rules or risk they penetenciary system. If they wanted to steal so bad then they should've done it in the states. An Irish man once lost a hand in Dubai for kissing a british girl in a cab, that was harsh and unjust but he'd should've known better also, same thing I'm arguing here.

[B. McBannerson]

Your defense of harsh penalties for stealing under Shira Law was implicit when you chosse to use them as an example to justify the penalties for first time shoplifting in China.

No.  A factual statement of what can happen elsewhere, no justification or condemnation of China's policies.  None whatsoever.  Sorry, you are wrong on this one.

 

[bilsu]

Fantastic news?  Do you want three, admittedly very dumb, college freshmen to be locked up for a minimum of three years each in a prison in a third world foreign country where they don't speak the language?  That's harsh.

Not as harsh as it used to be. They used to cut the thief's hand off. I would assume that every school taking a foreign trip warns their players about doing stupid things in another country. If UCLA did not do this, then the administration has some blame. However, what we are dealing with here is a sense of entitlement the young men had. I suspect they will receive a sentence and, it will get negotiated down by our government. UCLA should kick them off the team

[B. McBannerson]

Count me as one who does not think Ball (or the others) actually stole anything.

According to Jeff Goodman, the UCLA players admitted to stealing.  The Georgia Tech players were let go.  Will see what additional info comes out.

[Dawson Rental]

No.  A factual statement of what can happen elsewhere, no justification or condemnation of China's policies.  None whatsoever.  Sorry, you are wrong on this one.

I apologize, if I mistook your meaning.

[GGGG]

In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor.  Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.

[bilsu]

In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor.  Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.

I am assuming that since they are under house arrest that they will have some kind of trial. Probably more to do with sentencing given that they already admitted they did it.

[StillAWarrior]

According to Jeff Goodman, the UCLA players admitted to stealing.  The Georgia Tech players were let go.  Will see what additional info comes out.

Where did you see that reported?

[Benny B]

In Wisconsin, this would be a Class A misdemeanor.  Assuming they are first time offenders, it would be plead down to probation.

Well... they weren't in Wisconsin now, were they?

Unless you have diplomatic immunity, you are subject to the laws of the locale you're in... doesn't matter if you're in a different city, county, state, province, prefecture, district or country.  Whatever the laws are back home is irrelevant.

China is a sovereign nation.  You may not agree with the laws they have, but they're entitled to enforce and penalize any way they see fit just as we are entitled to the same in the U.S.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Yet another black eye for college basketball, and an even worse look for UCLA.  You feel bad for the kids, not for being kids, but rather the severe differential in criminal proceedings in China vs. the United States.  Bottom line, stealing here vs. stealing there is still stealing; it is wrong and there does need to be consequences for that. 

If China wants to give them anywhere from 3-10 years, I don't think there's much we can do to change that. 

I do wonder if this will resist future programs from doing overseas trips now.  Probably not, but at least second guess it at a minimum.

[GGGG]

Well... they weren't in Wisconsin now, were they?

Unless you have diplomatic immunity, you are subject to the laws of the locale you're in... doesn't matter if you're in a different city, county, state, province, prefecture, district or country.  Whatever the laws are back home is irrelevant.

China is a sovereign nation.  You may not agree with the laws they have, but they're entitled to enforce and penalize any way they see fit just as we are entitled to the same in the U.S.

Please follow the conversation.  Of course China has the right do enforce its laws and its penalties.

What I am saying is that the potential penalties are overly harsh, and therefore the United State should advocate for leniency. 

[Benny B]

One thing's for sure... LiAngelo just closed the door on his best basketball-playing opportunity post-UCLA.

Lost in all of this is the obvious question: Why the hell are GT and UCLA playing a game in China?

[MomofMUltiples]

We can all speculate or argue about what the punishment might be, or should be, in China, but what should/will the punishment be from UCLA?  Long-term suspension? Kicked off the team? Expulsion?

One of the things that convinces me that this is a very serious situation is that LaVar Ball scheduled a press conference and then canceled it, citing legal advice to not comment on the situation. When has LaVar Ball ever taken anyone's advice on anything? Especially when his TV show is filming.

[jsglow]

We can all speculate or argue about what the punishment might be, or should be, in China, but what should/will the punishment be from UCLA?  Long-term suspension? Kicked off the team? Expulsion?

One of the things that convinces me that this is a very serious situation is that LaVar Ball scheduled a press conference and then canceled it, citing legal advice to not comment on the situation. When has LaVar Ball ever taken anyone's advice on anything? Especially when his TV show is filming.

Mr. Bell would be wise to keep his mouth shut until such time that his kid is out of Chinese airspace.  That lawyer is earning every nickel right now.

[TedBaxter]

Please follow the conversation.  Of course China has the right do enforce its laws and its penalties.

What I am saying is that the potential penalties are overly harsh, and therefore the United State should advocate for leniency.

The U.S. should do nothing for those 3 idiots.