Title IX Lawsuit Against Marquette

[muwarrior69]

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com

I know McAdams has an axe to grind when it comes to MU, but is his account accurate. None the less the young woman is going to court.

[forgetful]

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com

I know McAdams has an axe to grind when it comes to MU, but is his account accurate. None the less the young woman is going to court.

McAdams actually defends MU in this report.  The student's only hope would be to get a settlement check from MU to just have this go away, separate from that the student has very little case (note, I'm far from an expert in these matters).

The main problem for the student is they repeatedly emphasize that she was raped, and most damages stem from the fallout of that rape.  But, a court of her peers determined that she was not raped.  The person she accused was acquitted by a jury.  She was also accused of assault/rape, but charges not filed.

A second major component of her complaint/case is that MU failed to follow through on expelling the student because of a previous incident.  The student though never faced expulsion, he was suspended as a disciplinary action.  He was disciplined, and my guess is that the suspension matches similar disciplinary action for other students. 

[rocket surgeon]

Mccadams does, I believe, hint at defending MU.  However, if we remember TAMU talking about one cannot consent to sexual relations being incapacitated/ intoxicated.  Now ms. Doe did not do herself any favors by lying about how their encounter on “that night” came about.  Was she embarrassed to admit to it?  I have been a fairly strong critic of title IX and how it seems to deny the accused due process, but this guy, the accused, gives guys a real bad name.  any relationship to harvey?

[forgetful]

Mccadams does, I believe, hint at defending MU.  However, if we remember TAMU talking about one cannot consent to sexual relations being incapacitated/ intoxicated.  Now ms. Doe did not do herself any favors by lying about how their encounter on “that night” came about.  Was she embarrassed to admit to it?  I have been a fairly strong critic of title IX and how it seems to deny the accused due process, but this guy, the accused, gives guys a real bad name.  any relationship to harvey?

A jury concluded no assault occurred.  In Wisconsin, being intoxicated/incapacitated would render one unable to consent.  Those two aspects imply that the jury likely deemed her sober when the sex act was committed. 

Guy is likely a creep, but since he was acquitted, I'm not sure what DOEs claim can be here against MU.  Likely things beyond my understanding of Title IX.

[rocket surgeon]

A jury concluded no assault occurred.  In Wisconsin, being intoxicated/incapacitated would render one unable to consent.  Those two aspects imply that the jury likely deemed her sober when the sex act was committed. 

Guy is likely a creep, but since he was acquitted, I'm not sure what DOEs claim can be here against MU.  Likely things beyond my understanding of Title IX.

“That the jury likely deemed her sober when...” based on the surveillance upon her return back to Schroeder I believe was part of the observation that she wasn’t intoxicated.  I’ll bet some would love that to be their defense while driving.  Listen, full disclosure here- I know one of the girls this scumbag had stalked and harassed, but not brought up anywhere within this complaint.  Thank God that’s where it stopped and his actions were curtailed by Mu’s punitive steps taken due to this case.  Hopefully this served as a wake up call to this loser or you will be hearing more about him in the future and sadly it would be due to some massive character defects undeterred by these episodes.  He should feel lucky that I ain’t ms. Doe’s father

[jesmu84]

“That the jury likely deemed her sober when...” based on the surveillance upon her return back to Schroeder I believe was part of the observation that she wasn’t intoxicated.  I’ll bet some would love that to be their defense while driving.  Listen, full disclosure here- I know one of the girls this scumbag had stalked and harassed, but not brought up anywhere within this complaint.  Thank God that’s where it stopped and his actions were curtailed by Mu’s punitive steps taken due to this case.  Hopefully this served as a wake up call to this loser or you will be hearing more about him in the future and sadly it would be due to some massive character defects undeterred by these episodes.  He should feel lucky that I ain’t ms. Doe’s father

Yep. Imagine if we had a president who had sexually harassed women. Or had declared it was fine to grab them by the genitals. What a world that would be! Much like Weinstein, I bet that guy would be dragged out of the white house and discredited widely

[manny31]

Yep. Imagine if we had a president who had sexually harassed women. Or had declared it was fine to grab them by the genitals. What a world that would be! Much like Weinstein, I bet that guy would be dragged out of the white house and discredited widely

Just curious who we are imagining here? GWB,WJC? I personally find it abhorrent regardless of the didtbags political persuasion. I am not a fan of relativism. Don’t want to get political here just want to keep things in perspective.

[rocket surgeon]

Yep. Imagine if we had a president who had sexually harassed women. Or had declared it was fine to grab them by the genitals. What a world that would be! Much like Weinstein, I bet that guy would be dragged out of the white house and discredited widely

Well, we already had one and he, his wife and his people just didn’t think it mattered I guess. They thought it was his personal life and should be handled personally He even hung around a known/ convicted pedophile, regularly traveled to his “Orgi island”on his jet, the “Lolita express” and still...nothing. MU, I think, would not tolerate that kind of behavior I would hope.  3 woman came out with stories of rape and....still nothing. 
My hopes are that we that we as a society have evolved to take these cases on now rather than push them to the back, but you would think his wife, “a champion for woman’s right” would have stepped up with her power , position and selflessness and done the right thing for women as she so noted in many of here rousing speeches

[jsglow]

Gentlemen, this could be a constructive thread but has already veered.  For the record, you started it jesmu84.  I'm sure you're proud.

It will be interesting to see how this case develops.  I didn't read McAdams article word for word but I do know some of the university players and really find many of the allegations to be wildly outside my experience with these folks who are all quite thoughtful and careful.

[rocket surgeon]

Gentlemen, this could be a constructive thread but has already veered.  For the record, you started it jesmu84.  I'm sure you're proud.

It will be interesting to see how this case develops.  I didn't read McAdams article word for word but I do know some of the university players and really find many of the allegations to be wildly outside my experience with these folks who are all quite thoughtful and careful.

I apologize for my moment of weakness, but...yes the article is very interesting and quite thorough.  I would honestly love to hear TAMU’s thoughts on it.  Note,  I was pretty outspoken along with 4/5 for tightening up the due process for the accused in general.  The accused in this case however, looks to be gaming the system somewhat.  Yes, the accuser didn’t help herself any as well.  But she has to be honest as to why she lied and ended up “hooking up”with the dude in the first place.  Curiosity got the cat, eyna? 

The larger point of this case is however, the behavior of the accused was more rampant than was allowed to be revealed.  There was a pattern among a few others who either met the same fate, or were lucky(not getting lucky) and were able to shun his stalking/harassment and had the will power to avoid his advances

[jesmu84]

Well, we already had one and he, his wife and his people just didn’t think it mattered I guess. They thought it was his personal life and should be handled personally He even hung around a known/ convicted pedophile, regularly traveled to his “Orgi island”on his jet, the “Lolita express” and still...nothing. MU, I think, would not tolerate that kind of behavior I would hope.  3 woman came out with stories of rape and....still nothing. 
My hopes are that we that we as a society have evolved to take these cases on now rather than push them to the back, but you would think his wife, “a champion for woman’s right” would have stepped up with her power , position and selflessness and done the right thing for women as she so noted in many of here rousing speeches

Good. We agree men like that should not get a pass for their deeds. Yet, here we are, voting them in after the situations are known

[jesmu84]

Gentlemen, this could be a constructive thread but has already veered.  For the record, you started it jesmu84.  I'm sure you're proud.

It will be interesting to see how this case develops.  I didn't read McAdams article word for word but I do know some of the university players and really find many of the allegations to be wildly outside my experience with these folks who are all quite thoughtful and careful.

Proud? No. But in this current cultural climate of "metoo" and today's focus on increasing awareness about sexual assault/harassment/abuse, it's quite the dichotomy when our society voluntarily elects individuals with a known past of these incidents.

As a society, which side of the fence are we really on? Which position do we support?

In regards to MU, like all other colleges, sexual interactions and alcohol make for a dangerous combination. These are never easy situations for anyone to figure out. Personally, I'd side with the accusers as a default position.

[Lighthouse 84]

Proud? No. But in this current cultural climate of "metoo" and today's focus on increasing awareness about sexual assault/harassment/abuse, it's quite the dichotomy when our society voluntarily elects individuals with a known past of these incidents.

As a society, which side of the fence are we really on? Which position do we support?

In regards to MU, like all other colleges, sexual interactions and alcohol make for a dangerous combination. These are never easy situations for anyone to figure out. Personally, I'd side with the accusers as a default position.

And the last paragraph of your post is the only part that applies to the thread, as Glow has already implied in his post.  No reason to veer off topic and start making it political, so in before the lock!

Doe may have some legitimate claims against MU, IF she can show MU treated her differently than the other nursing students as it relates to retaking tests and classes, as the article alleges, thereby showing she was discriminated against because of this issue, or if she can show MU knew about the other MU students the accused stalked/harassed/worse and did not take enough action against him as they should have.  My guess is MU pays her something and makes it go away, as Forgetful stated.   

[Herman Cain]

Nursing is one of the better academic programs at MU. My understanding is they have very high standards and as a result the graduates are well respected in the Hospital world that employs them. It is also my understanding, the school has a reputation for being tough with students academically  and not showing much mercy relative non classrooms issues the kids have. That is pretty much what the dispute in this case is about.

[jsglow]

Nursing is one of the better academic programs at MU. My understanding is they have very high standards and as a result the graduates are well respected in the Hospital world that employs them. It is also my understanding, the school has a reputation for being tough with students academically  and not showing much mercy relative non classrooms issues the kids have. That is pretty much what the dispute in this case is about.

All true.

[Pakuni]

The main problem for the student is they repeatedly emphasize that she was raped, and most damages stem from the fallout of that rape.  But, a court of her peers determined that she was not raped.  The person she accused was acquitted by a jury.  She was also accused of assault/rape, but charges not filed.

Can we be clear about one thing ... nobody determined that she was not raped. That's not what juries do, nor is it what the system is intended to do. The jury found there was not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict him of rape. That's a very different thing from what you've stated.
I don't know whether she was raped or not. Neither do you. Neither do the jurors, in all likelihood.

[forgetful]

Can we be clear about one thing ... nobody determined that she was not raped. That's not what juries do, nor is it what the system is intended to do. The jury found there was not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict him of rape. That's a very different thing from what you've stated.
I don't know whether she was raped or not. Neither do you. Neither do the jurors, in all likelihood.

I agree with what you write.  My post was meant to be from a legal perspective.  Her attorneys are not going to succeed in having that verdict thrown out from this case (as evidence).  That means it will be evidence in this case that he was found not guilty by a jury trial.

Based on the jury trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the MU attorneys successfully petition for the court to stricken the words "rape victim" in reference to the complainant.  Actually I'd expect them to be successful.  In that instance, it makes it really hard for her to make a case. 

What makes it particularly tough for the complainant is that there was no physical evidence of an assault, rather only the aspect of being drunk/incompacitated and not being able to consent.  The video evidence of her not even appearing drunk really hurts her case.  If her attorneys push the "rape victim language" all her false statements will likely be put back into evidence, which would make her look untrustworthy in this case. 

I have no idea if she was assaulted or not, my general belief is to give them the benefit of doubt.  That is how I personally view these things.  The legal perspective though in this case is not strong for her...that was my primary point in the other post regarding "not guilty/acquited"

[B. McBannerson]

I have no idea if she was assaulted or not, my general belief is to give them the benefit of doubt.  That is how I personally view these things.  The legal perspective though in this case is not strong for her...that was my primary point in the other post regarding "not guilty/acquited"

Give whom the benefit of the doubt?  The "victim"?  Isn't this what we talked about last month, which is exactly what schools have done with over rotating, going with a benefit of the doubt (stacked deck) assertion.  This stuff is tough as hell, real people (mostly women) have been assaulted way too often.  However, we also have men that have been kicked out of school, kicked off teams, reputations ruined because some (SOME, not all) women make up stories about guys. 

There is a solve for this, unfortunately it's going to be awkward and ruin the moment for many people, but its coming.  Civil protection for both sides, at least an attempt at it.  Technological solution.   

[jesmu84]

Give whom the benefit of the doubt?  The "victim"?  Isn't this what we talked about last month, which is exactly what schools have done with over rotating, going with a benefit of the doubt (stacked deck) assertion.  This stuff is tough as hell, real people (mostly women) have been assaulted way too often.  However, we also have men that have been kicked out of school, kicked off teams, reputations ruined because some (SOME, not all) women make up stories about guys. 

There is a solve for this, unfortunately it's going to be awkward and ruin the moment for many people, but its coming.  Civil protection for both sides, at least an attempt at it.  Technological solution.   

What's the "solve"?

[BrewCity83]

Chicolooper is inventing an App for phones that will have a "consent" contract that both parties can "sign" in advance of the deed to prove there was mutual consent.

[forgetful]

Chicolooper is inventing an App for phones that will have a "consent" contract that both parties can "sign" in advance of the deed to prove there was mutual consent.

That is what he is implying, but it would be useless.  In regards to sexual relations, people can change their mind at any point.  If they agreed/signed, and one party changed their mind and said no, it is still rape, consent agreement or not. 

Really kind of an ignorant idea.

[Pakuni]

That is what he is implying, but it would be useless.  In regards to sexual relations, people can change their mind at any point.  If they agreed/signed, and one party changed their mind and said no, it is still rape, consent agreement or not. 

Really kind of an ignorant idea.

Unfortunately, not everybody sees it this way.

[mu03eng]

That is what he is implying, but it would be useless.  In regards to sexual relations, people can change their mind at any point.  If they agreed/signed, and one party changed their mind and said no, it is still rape, consent agreement or not. 

Really kind of an ignorant idea.

If we wanted a technological fix it's not far off from a theoretical but way way off from a practical

From a strictly legal standpoint the way to "fix" this is to have an app with an electronic consent prior to the encounter and a post-encounter "consent. Additionally (and this is where it gets creepy but bear with me) the app would also film the encounter and put it into an encrypted database for future legal use should consent become a point of contention.

Like I said, this won't ever happen practically, but its a relatively easy fix with technology if we were so inclined.

[Eldon]

If we wanted a technological fix it's not far off from a theoretical but way way off from a practical

From a strictly legal standpoint the way to "fix" this is to have an app with an electronic consent prior to the encounter and a post-encounter "consent. Additionally (and this is where it gets creepy but bear with me) the app would also film the encounter and put it into an encrypted database for future legal use should consent become a point of contention.

Like I said, this won't ever happen practically, but its a relatively easy fix with technology if we were so inclined.

[mu03eng]

+1

[forgetful]

If we wanted a technological fix it's not far off from a theoretical but way way off from a practical

From a strictly legal standpoint the way to "fix" this is to have an app with an electronic consent prior to the encounter and a post-encounter "consent. Additionally (and this is where it gets creepy but bear with me) the app would also film the encounter and put it into an encrypted database for future legal use should consent become a point of contention.

Like I said, this won't ever happen practically, but its a relatively easy fix with technology if we were so inclined.

You'd also have to add in a breathalyzer app (exists) and a drug test app (doesn't exist; non-feasible with current technology). 

Also, video to an encrypted database...that's worked so well for people's private pictures and the cloud.

[Lennys Tap]

Can we be clear about one thing ... nobody determined that she was not raped. That's not what juries do, nor is it what the system is intended to do. The jury found there was not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict him of rape. That's a very different thing from what you've stated.
I don't know whether she was raped or not. Neither do you. Neither do the jurors, in all likelihood.

All true. We don't know if he raped her, she raped him or neither raped the other. The problem in he said/she said situations is that "reasonable doubt" is pretty easy to establish.

[mu03eng]

You'd also have to add in a breathalyzer app (exists) and a drug test app (doesn't exist; non-feasible with current technology). 

Also, video to an encrypted database...that's worked so well for people's private pictures and the cloud.

All of which is feasibly achievable with current technology.

My whole point is that we can do lots of stuff with technology but that doesn't mean we should