Big East Too Early Preview

[HutchwasClutch]

7th in the Beast is unacceptable, and Wojo better get going on success. What is his record at MU? About .500. And he is in his 4th year. When the BEast was reformed, there were people on this board that scoffed at "mid-majors" like Butler and Creighton be taken into the league. Those two programs have out performed the Duke Wonderboy since he became head coach. While I would rate him an A as a recruiter, he gets about a charitable C- as a bench coach. It is time for Wojo to step up and compete seriously for BEast titles, and not for middle of the pack mediocrity. Isn't he being paid big bucks along with excellent resources to be at the top of the conference, instead of a pack lagger?

Agree with all of this.  Without their win over 'Nova last year, a game they were down double digits for 33 minutes, they maybe make the NIT.   Then they looked terrible in both postseason performances.   Excuses need to stop for the program and Wojo start delivering results.  The Big East is a good conference, but there are no blue bloods.  Not a reason in the world we shouldn't be able to outperform the likes of Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, Butler, etc., which we clearly haven't in 4 years of new BE.  Time for Wojo to show something, or get out of the way for somebody who can.

[GGGG]

Agree with all of this.  Without their win over 'Nova last year, a game they were down double digits for 33 minutes, they maybe make the NIT.   Then they looked terrible in both postseason performances.   Excuses need to stop for the program and Wojo start delivering results.  The Big East is a good conference, but there are no blue bloods.  Not a reason in the world we shouldn't be able to outperform the likes of Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, Butler, etc., which we clearly haven't in 4 years of new BE.  Time for Wojo to show something, or get out of the way for somebody who can.

2014–15   13–19 (4–14)   T–9th  No postseason
2015–16   20–13 (8–10)   7th      No postseason
2016–17   19–13 (10–8)   T-3rd  NCAA bid

Is this not showing you something???

[jsglow]

Agree with all of this.  Without their win over 'Nova last year, a game they were down double digits for 33 minutes, they maybe make the NIT.   Then they looked terrible in both postseason performances.   Excuses need to stop for the program and Wojo start delivering results.  The Big East is a good conference, but there are no blue bloods.  Not a reason in the world we shouldn't be able to outperform the likes of Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, Butler, etc., which we clearly haven't in 4 years of new BE. Time for Wojo to show something, or get out of the way for somebody who can.

Here we go again.

[Tugg Speedman]

They have Georgetown 10th.  Can't say I disagree.

Raise your hand if you thought the season that DePaul did not finish last would be to a "storied program" like Georgetown.

[HutchwasClutch]

2014–15   13–19 (4–14)   T–9th  No postseason
2015–16   20–13 (8–10)   7th      No postseason
2016–17   19–13 (10–8)   T-3rd  NCAA bid

Is this not showing you something???

Tied for 3rd based on tiebreakers, anybody who's honest knows it was a middle of the pack finish, including one and done in conference tournament.  As I pointed out, a 7 minute stretch in one game got them in the NCAA's.   Without that comeback, they don't make it.  Then they get killed in that game.  We're not setting the bar very high to be happy with one NCAA bid as a 10 seed.  Year before, they had an NBA top 20 pick, and couldn't even get to .500 in conference, including a home loss to DePaul, and another one and done in conference tournament. 

They've shown they can be very mediocre under him.  Which I guess is fine for a lot of fans.

[GGGG]

Tied for 3rd based on tiebreakers, anybody who's honest knows it was a middle of the pack finish, including one and done in conference tournament.  As I pointed out, a 7 minute stretch in one game got them in the NCAA's.   Without that comeback, they don't make it.  Then they get killed in that game.  We're not setting the bar very high to be happy with one NCAA bid as a 10 seed.  Year before, they had an NBA top 20 pick, and couldn't even get to .500 in conference, including a home loss to DePaul, and another one and done in conference tournament. 

They've shown they can be very mediocre under him.  Which I guess is fine for a lot of fans.

They have improved every year. That's something. And where did I say I was satisfied with that?  I expect the bar to be set higher.

You just can't recognize progress.

[Herman Cain]

Tied for 3rd based on tiebreakers, anybody who's honest knows it was a middle of the pack finish, including one and done in conference tournament.  As I pointed out, a 7 minute stretch in one game got them in the NCAA's.   Without that comeback, they don't make it.  Then they get killed in that game.  We're not setting the bar very high to be happy with one NCAA bid as a 10 seed.  Year before, they had an NBA top 20 pick, and couldn't even get to .500 in conference, including a home loss to DePaul, and another one and done in conference tournament. 

They've shown they can be very mediocre under him.  Which I guess is fine for a lot of fans.

What would another coach have done different the last two years? I am not a Wojo fan and have stated my views over that time . What do you think Wojo could have done to elevate our status above mediocre?

[Jay Bee]

We're not setting the bar very high to be happy with one NCAA bid as a 10 seed.  Year before, they had an NBA top 20 pick, and couldn't even get to .500 in conference, including a home loss to DePaul, and another one and done in conference tournament. 

They've shown they can be very mediocre under him.  Which I guess is fine for a lot of fans.

I think people are pleased with the trajectory and outlook. Wojo still had his predecessor's players last season. Coaching changes are rarely simple flicks of the light switch.

This month, the likely #1 pick in the NBA draft will be a kid whose team went 9-22 and had a single top-100 KenPom win (in overtime at home to a medicore Colorado team). Your NBA top 20 pick comment has little relevance.

Size and defense has been an issue with the roster. This year's class and transfers in help to address this issue. However, one transfer is out for the first part of the season; the other isn't eligible for a year. .the others are young, true frosh...

But smart people see we're giving ourselves a chance to be very good in 2018-19. The roster is being built.  That's the very good sign, even though it's difficult to expect greatness in 2017-18.... the outlook and improvement is evident.

[HutchwasClutch]

I think people are pleased with the trajectory and outlook. Wojo still had his predecessor's players last season. Coaching changes are rarely simple flicks of the light switch.

This month, the likely #1 pick in the NBA draft will be a kid whose team went 9-22 and had a single top-100 KenPom win (in overtime at home to a medicore Colorado team). Your NBA top 20 pick comment has little relevance.

Size and defense has been an issue with the roster. This year's class and transfers in help to address this issue. However, one transfer is out for the first part of the season; the other isn't eligible for a year. .the others are young, true frosh...

But smart people see we're giving ourselves a chance to be very good in 2018-19. The roster is being built.  That's the very good sign, even though it's difficult to expect greatness in 2017-18.... the outlook and improvement is evident.

First, I agree the foundation is there for success as far as how the current roster and 2018-19 roster has come together.  I think  this could be a very underrated incoming freshman class.   If they stay together of course, which is a huge if given today's college basketball landscape, and what we've seen at MU over several years now.

Yes, there has been progress in Wojo's three years.  I certainly would hope so given where it started in 2014-15, they were bottom feeders of the conference.  It could hardly have gotten much worse than 4-14 and a near 20 loss season.  But the two years since has been very modest progress as I've already argued.

The notion of having Ellenson and that team without anything to show for it, is not an irrelevancy.   Coaches lose their jobs quickly when that happens.   Romar at Washington and Jones at LSU were fired the seasons after their one and done stars moved on to the NBA.  And Romar had a track record of success at Washington.  I realize those two guys did and will go much higher than Ellenson did, but bottom line is Ellenson was not far outside of the lottery. 

I am very open to the notion that I could be wrong about Wojo.  I am not declaring he's a failure, should be fired now, etc.  Just color me highly skeptical based on what we've seen to date.   Very underwhelming overall.

[Herman Cain]

First, I agree the foundation is there for success as far as how the current roster and 2018-19 roster has come together.  I think  this could be a very underrated incoming freshman class.   If they stay together of course, which is a huge if given today's college basketball landscape, and what we've seen at MU over several years now.

Yes, there has been progress in Wojo's three years.  I certainly would hope so given where it started in 2014-15, they were bottom feeders of the conference.  It could hardly have gotten much worse than 4-14 and a near 20 loss season.  But the two years since has been very modest progress as I've already argued.

The notion of having Ellenson and that team without anything to show for it, is not an irrelevancy.   Coaches lose their jobs quickly when that happens.   Romar at Washington and Jones at LSU were fired the seasons after their one and done stars moved on to the NBA.  And Romar had a track record of success at Washington.  I realize those two guys did and will go much higher than Ellenson did, but bottom line is Ellenson was not far outside of the lottery. 

I am very open to the notion that I could be wrong about Wojo.  I am not declaring he's a failure, should be fired now, etc.  Just color me highly skeptical based on what we've seen to date.   Very underwhelming overall.

So what would you advocate that Wojo could have done differently . I have put my views out over the years and am interested in hearing yours.

[GGGG]

First, I agree the foundation is there for success as far as how the current roster and 2018-19 roster has come together.  I think  this could be a very underrated incoming freshman class.   If they stay together of course, which is a huge if given today's college basketball landscape, and what we've seen at MU over several years now.

Yes, there has been progress in Wojo's three years.  I certainly would hope so given where it started in 2014-15, they were bottom feeders of the conference.  It could hardly have gotten much worse than 4-14 and a near 20 loss season.  But the two years since has been very modest progress as I've already argued.

The notion of having Ellenson and that team without anything to show for it, is not an irrelevancy.   Coaches lose their jobs quickly when that happens.   Romar at Washington and Jones at LSU were fired the seasons after their one and done stars moved on to the NBA.  And Romar had a track record of success at Washington.  I realize those two guys did and will go much higher than Ellenson did, but bottom line is Ellenson was not far outside of the lottery. 

I am very open to the notion that I could be wrong about Wojo.  I am not declaring he's a failure, should be fired now, etc.  Just color me highly skeptical based on what we've seen to date.   Very underwhelming overall.

How is it "modest?"  They went from sub .500 to an NCAA tournament in two years.  Your arguments are lacking facts. 

[wadesworld]

How is it "modest?"  They went from sub .500 to an NCAA tournament in two years.  Your arguments are lacking facts.

Because if you take away his good wins this year then it wouldn't have been progress and there would be no NCAA Tournament appearance.  Duh.  It's unacceptable that had we not won some big games we wouldn't have gone dancing.  Marquette fans have become too accepting of mediocrity if they don't see that when you remove the good games from a season the season was really bad.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

If Cain gives us "70% of what JJJ did," he isn't replaced.

Cain doesn't need to replace JJJ that's the point. Sam will play most minutes in JJJs spot, and he's a far better player.

[willie warrior]

I think that's just wee willie whining. We could finish second in the Big East, make the BET final,  and go to the Final Four and he'd complain that Wonderboy Wojo didn't win the league and both tournaments.

We have not even been close to those results. But keep your wojo colored glasses on and savor the mediocrity.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Stop with the hypothetical bullsh!t taking away the Villanova win.  MU could just as easily have won both Providence games and the first Seton Hall game...13-5! Hypothetical 2nd place!  What do you think, 4 or 5 seed?  See, it goes both ways.

As for the next complaint: Missing the tournament with Henry.  How about acknowledging the fact that, despite losing Henry, the team went on to make the tournament. If missing the tournament with Henry was a huge failure, making the tournament without him is just as big of a success.

But that wouldn't fit the anti-Wojo agenda. Honestly, I was not thrilled when Wojo's name first came up in the coaching search.  He still hasn't completely proven himself but the trend is up.  Face it, Buzz left MU in a downward spiral. Wojo's first year, things hit rock bottom.  The trend has been upward since.  We're probably one year away.  Have some patience.  The front court is improving. One more high quality guard would make me feel better.  Wojo is getting there.  I'm optimistic going forward.

[brewcity77]

We have not even been close to those results.

Which changes nothing about my post or my point. You're whining for no reason and willfully ignoring steady and obvious improvement.

[bilsu]

7th in the Beast is unacceptable, and Wojo better get going on success. What is his record at MU? About .500. And he is in his 4th year. When the BEast was reformed, there were people on this board that scoffed at "mid-majors" like Butler and Creighton be taken into the league. Those two programs have out performed the Duke Wonderboy since he became head coach. While I would rate him an A as a recruiter, he gets about a charitable C- as a bench coach. It is time for Wojo to step up and compete seriously for BEast titles, and not for middle of the pack mediocrity. Isn't he being paid big bucks along with excellent resources to be at the top of the conference, instead of a pack lagger?

I would give Wojo a B in recruiting. 4 incoming freshmen, who do not even get us ranked in the top 40 recruiting classes does not earn an A in recruiting.

[DFW HOYA]

They have Georgetown 10th.  Can't say I disagree.

Georgetown lost 57 percent of its scoring from a 14-18 win team and its only top 100 recruit decommitted. That's a lot to catch up on, and there are still two scholarships still unfilled.

[Galway Eagle]

I would give Wojo a B in recruiting. 4 incoming freshmen, who do not even get us ranked in the top 40 recruiting classes does not earn an A in recruiting.

Sure ignore Cain, Markus, Sam, Henry, Haaniff and 4 stud transfers. Just Base your grade on this class...

[The Lens]

Because for a program with 3 straight S16s in recent history simply making the NCAA is MODEST.  Especially when its paired with a 1st round BET loss.

[HutchwasClutch]

Stop with the hypothetical bullsh!t taking away the Villanova win.  MU could just as easily have won both Providence games and the first Seton Hall game...13-5! Hypothetical 2nd place!  What do you think, 4 or 5 seed?  See, it goes both ways.

As for the next complaint: Missing the tournament with Henry.  How about acknowledging the fact that, despite losing Henry, the team went on to make the tournament. If missing the tournament with Henry was a huge failure, making the tournament without him is just as big of a success.

But that wouldn't fit the anti-Wojo agenda. Honestly, I was not thrilled when Wojo's name first came up in the coaching search.  He still hasn't completely proven himself but the trend is up.  Face it, Buzz left MU in a downward spiral. Wojo's first year, things hit rock bottom.  The trend has been upward since.  We're probably one year away.  Have some patience.  The front court is improving. One more high quality guard would make me feel better.  Wojo is getting there.  I'm optimistic going forward.

'Nova win and comeback was an aberration.   Name another game not only last year, last 5, or last 10, where they trailed 33-34 minutes, almost entirely by double digits, only to come back and win?   Nobody does that with regularity.  Sure other losses you point out could have easily been flipped to W's, but instead just go into trend of losses we've seen far too often under Wojo. 

I'd give far more weight to argument about giving credit to making NCAA's without HE, were there have been more foundation for their NCAA selection than 7 minutes vs 'Nova.  Rest of their body of work impressed selection committee to nothing more than 1 seed better than Providence, which played in Dayton.  So what do you think committee does with them taking out an aberrational win over team chosen as #1 seed of the entire tournament?!

I agree with progress, and I to believe he has a lot of really nice players who can compete for top of the conference.  I just have serious doubts Wojo will take them another level higher based on current data.  He's had the talent last two seasons to do much more than what results have been. 

[HutchwasClutch]

By the way, why are there arguments here about progress and upward trends, while at the same time pointing out we're a year away, or 2018-19 team is shaping up to be very strong?  Doesn't progress and upward trend mean continued improvement over one year to the next?  No one seems to be arguing 2017-18 will be better than 2016-17 was (which I agree with). 

I'm highly skeptical progress will be sustained and taken another level. 

[brewcity77]

By the way, why are there arguments here about progress and upward trends, while at the same time pointing out we're a year away, or 2018-19 team is shaping up to be very strong?  Doesn't progress and upward trend mean continued improvement over one year to the next?  No one seems to be arguing 2017-18 will be better than 2016-17 was (which I agree with).

Personally, because I view this season about the same as last year, which is a bubble team, and because progress isn't always a straight line. The trajectory is up, regardless of where we end up this year.

[HutchwasClutch]

Personally, because I view this season about the same as last year, which is a bubble team, and because progress isn't always a straight line. The trajectory is up, regardless of where we end up this year.

Good point.

[HutchwasClutch]

So what would you advocate that Wojo could have done differently . I have put my views out over the years and am interested in hearing yours.

Nothing really unique to what's already been said enough.