Comparing MU and IU Under Crean

[Herman Cain]

Crean has proven he can deliver consistence positive performance at the highest levels of College basketball. I don't think there is a material difference between his performance at MU and IU.

After a brief sabbatical, he will be back at the controls of a high major .

[The Equalizer]

How many guys end up with a prop 48 "diamond in the rough" who can't be recruited by the big boys - who then becomes one of the top 30 players of all time? I only know of one.

There were no restrictions on anyone recruiting Wade. Wade didn't become a non-qualifier until AFTER his senior year--he still had a chance to get a qualifying score on the ACT the summer before he enrolled in college. That was a year after his commitment to MU. 

The big boys don't have to take a chance on a "diamond in the rough" players, regardless of qualification status.

The big boys usually just go ahead pick from the top 50 players nationally directly out of HS. They don't waste their energy recruiting a player ranked outside the top 100 who wasn't even considered one of the top 5 players in Illinois.

[jesmu84]

Whatever he recruited the stats above say he produced amazingly similar records between the two schools.  So same guy, gets the same out of his kids, similar results = similar quality of recruits between the schools.

That's not how that works. Terrible logic there. But go ahead and keep cherry picking stuff that reinforces your conclusion.

[rocket surgeon]

How many guys end up with a prop 48 "diamond in the rough" who can't be recruited by the big boys - who then becomes one of the top 30 players of all time? I only know of one.

Luck of the draw I guess, but ya get whatcha get.  Leaving prop 48 out of it however, there are many players who ended up way better than advertized.  Maybe not reaching the eventual top 30 you refer to, but became college basketball studs to say the least.  What they end up doing after college is, well, can go either way. 

It would be a great topic to explore-guys were were not highly recruited but went onto exceed expectations-jimmy butler was a good college player who exploded as a pro for example.  Did anyone see Jae or Wes becoming the type of pro they are? 

If you are going to base Tom crean's career on one player, you've just offended many other good players he had

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Crean's top target was Desmon Farmer out of Michigan. He went to USC so Crean had to go for plan B: Wade.

Talk about falling backwards into a lottery ticket. Granted, TC also landed Diener, Novak, the Amigos, and Hayward. But Wade is the big one.

After losing in the Final Four, I  thought Crean would never win a national title at Marquette. He would never coach a player as good as Wade. When TC left, a co-worker broke the news to me. I shrugged and said "Meh." He was a little taken aback but I replied that Crean was replaceable. I felt as Crean did, that he had taken MU as far as he could.

[jsglow]

He has a legacy at Marquette.  At IU, he was a bridge from one guy to the next.

He was there 9 years and replaced a disgraced coach.  I'm no huge fan but....

[bilsu]

He left both programs in better shape than what he inherited. There were no seniors in the starting lineup that played against the badgers in the Big 10 tournament.

[jsglow]

He left both programs in better shape than what he inherited. There were no seniors in the starting lineup that played against the badgers in the Big 10 tournament.

+1

[rocket surgeon]

Remember, Tom crean had to clean up in aisle 7 after kelvin sampson...ok, it was Indiana, but he did bring respect back to the program.  Could have done a little better with the talent he had, but in all fairness, he had some major injuries to play through.  The personality he projected aside, he did ok and he will have no problems finding another top 5-10 job.

To base a coach's success/failure on wining it all is not fair however.  Keeping the program reputable and competitive and filling the seats should be the barometer. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Remember, Tom crean had to clean up in aisle 7 after kelvin sampson...ok, it was Indiana, but he did bring respect back to the program.  Could have done a little better with the talent he had, but in all fairness, he had some major injuries to play through.  The personality he projected aside, he did ok and he will have no problems finding another top 5-10 job.

To base a coach's success/failure on wining it all is not fair however.  Keeping the program reputable and competitive and filling the seats should be the barometer.

I dont think he was fired for the clean-up.  It was likely more to do with your last sentence....yr 9 - surprised it has been that long

[rocket surgeon]

I dont think he was fired for the clean-up.  It was likely more to do with your last sentence....yr 9 - surprised it has been that long

I agree, but unfortunately or not, successful NCAA coaches have to juggle many balls.  How long would one expect gonzaga for example put up with a mark few if he put up a couple of boners and/or a mini scandal, academic issues, even though he has worked up quite the resume

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I agree, but unfortunately or not, successful NCAA coaches have to juggle many balls.  How long would one expect gonzaga for example put up with a mark few if he put up a couple of boners and/or a mini scandal, academic issues, even though he has worked up quite the resume

Crean never achieved the desires of the program on the court after getting an initial period of lee-way to clean things up. 

Few has earned IMO some years not achieving expectations.   If he has a scandal sure - but why should someone be allowed to aggregiously cheat and keep their job.

I'll save my tears for someone who toils for less.  They get paid plenty to be judged on w's and l's

[MerrittsMustache]

Crean is a guy who can build a solid tournament team but doesn't have the ability to coach his team to a deep tournament run.

I've said it before but I think Crean would be an excellent high-mid-major coach. In successful high majors, there's a combo of player talent and excellent coaching. At the mid-major level, you often see talented rosters win out because the opposing coaches are simply not as good as they are at the highest level. That's why you see great recruiting mid-major coaches, like John Groce, win at the mid-major level but struggle when they get to a high major program. Talent can only take you so far at the level. Looking at current openings, I think Crean would be a force at a program like UMass or Drake but he's more likely to end up having an up-and-down career at NC State or Cal.

[Uncle Rico]

He left both programs in better shape than what he inherited. There were no seniors in the starting lineup that played against the badgers in the Big 10 tournament.

Crean may be a lot of things but this is very true

[tower912]

I appreciate everything Coach Crean did for Marquette.    He built the program up from Mike Deane's vision, which didn't have the Big East in it.    He shepherded the program into the Big East.    He won 190 games in 9 years.    He took MU to a final 4.    He reached out to and engaged the students.    Kudos and thank you.
   But he wasn't and isn't a great coach.    I thought that he would grow and be able to compensate for the weaknesses he showed at Marquette by being able to recruit over them.     His inability to string together consecutive good classes.    His poor in-game coaching.   His inability to attack a zone.    His poor adjustments.    But if you read the Hoosier boards, their gripes are exactly the same.    He hasn't improved.    And his personality grates when his teams aren't winning. 
   His performance at Marquette got him the IU job.    What job will his performance at IU get him?     I think THAT is another way to answer the question.   

[warriorfred]

I appreciate everything Coach Crean did for Marquette.    He built the program up from Mike Deane's vision, which didn't have the Big East in it.    He shepherded the program into the Big East.    He won 190 games in 9 years.    He took MU to a final 4.    He reached out to and engaged the students.    Kudos and thank you.
   But he wasn't and isn't a great coach.    I thought that he would grow and be able to compensate for the weaknesses he showed at Marquette by being able to recruit over them.     His inability to string together consecutive good classes.    His poor in-game coaching.   His inability to attack a zone.    His poor adjustments.    But if you read the Hoosier boards, their gripes are exactly the same.    He hasn't improved.    And his personality grates when his teams aren't winning. 
   His performance at Marquette got him the IU job.    What job will his performance at IU get him?     I think THAT is another way to answer the question.

Excellent summary.  Crean will land at a mid-major because he has demonstrated that his teams can make the tournament with regularity (2 out of 4 years), his teams will be ranked every now and then, and he lands the occasional very good recruiting class.  That is enough for most schools.

[Goose]

I am not a Pro on Anti Crean for the most part. Thought he did decent job at MU, but did not break my heart when he left. More importantly, I thought it looked good for our program that he went to IU versus Buzz's departure. His overall body of work at both jobs is pretty good IMO. He is far from John Wooden and far from being Bob Dukiet.

Have to admit that I did took pleasure in his firing yesterday. Not exactly sure why I felt that way because I was glad he left MU. My guess is he ends up getting a good to very good job and has similar success that he had at MU and IU.

The real good news is that IU is my favorite Big Ten team and I can go back to cheering for them again.

[CreanLover]

The real good news is that IU is my favorite Big Ten team and I can go back to cheering for them again.

These are my exact feelings. Frankly, rabid Indiana fans feel somewhat the same way. It's very difficult to root for your team when your coach is such an insufferable poser, blowing by opposing coaches, screaming at Michigan assistants, hanging banners...he's the worst!

[MU82]

I am not a Pro or Anti Crean for the most part. Thought he did decent job at MU, but did not break my heart when he left. More importantly, I thought it looked good for our program that he went to IU versus Buzz's departure. His overall body of work at both jobs is pretty good IMO. He is far from John Wooden and far from being Bob Dukiet.

This basically describes me, too. I also am not particularly pro or anti Buzz. I wanted him to win last night. I appreciate the contributions both made to Marquette basketball, while also wishing for a little more from each.

As for Wade, one of the real mis-statements some make is that nobody recruited him and that only Marquette would take him because of his grades.

I have had many conversations with guys who used to be assistants at Illinois and DePaul. (I know: Everybody's happy for me.) They regret they didn't go after him harder when he was a younger prepster; by the time they focused more attention on him, he already had verballed to us and soon would sign with us.

By his junior season, most programs in the Midwest knew who Wade was. By the time he was a senior, every coach worth a hill of beans in the entire country knew who he was. He wasn't some mystery kid who went from being a high school mediocrity to being a D1 superstar.

I saw him once as a junior (25 points) and once as a senior (35 points) against very good competition; the latter was against Eddy Curry's team and he was spectacular. It was obvious he was going to be a stud, and I was thrilled he was going to be ours.

Beyond all of that, somehow holding a great recruit against Crean seems pretty dopey to me. I mean, we almost surely don't get to the FF without Robert Jackson, either. Maybe we should hold that against Crean, too. Or maybe we should just be happy he got Wade, Jackson, Diener, etc.?!?!

[Silkk the Shaka]

Dayton would be a good landing spot after Archie takes his job

[Lennys Tap]

There was a book many years ago (The Peter Principle) whose premise was that people tend to climb the ladder until they reach their "level of incompetence", i.e., a job beyond their ability. The Indiana job (once they emerged from rebuild mode) was just that for Tom Crean.

[Lennys Tap]

As for Wade, one of the real mis-statements some make is that nobody recruited him and that only Marquette would take him because of his grades.

I have had many conversations with guys who used to be assistants at Illinois and DePaul. (I know: Everybody's happy for me.) They regret they didn't go after him harder when he was a younger prepster; by the time they focused more attention on him, he already had verballed to us and soon would sign with us.

By his junior season, most programs in the Midwest knew who Wade was. By the time he was a senior, every coach worth a hill of beans in the entire country knew who he was. He wasn't some mystery kid who went from being a high school mediocrity to being a D1 superstar.

I saw him once as a junior (25 points) and once as a senior (35 points) against very good competition; the latter was against Eddy Curry's team and he was spectacular. It was obvious he was going to be a stud, and I was thrilled he was going to be ours.

Beyond all of that, somehow holding a great recruit against Crean seems pretty dopey to me. I mean, we almost surely don't get to the FF without Robert Jackson, either. Maybe we should hold that against Crean, too. Or maybe we should just be happy he got Wade, Jackson, Diener, etc.?!?!

1. I don't know who your "assistant at Illinois" is, but he's giving you bad information. None of the power 5 conference teams were ALLOWED to offer Wade because of his grades/test scores.

2. DePaul like Imari Sawyer better, that God for their stupidity (how many times have we said that in the last 20 years)

3. Tom Crean beat out Illinois State and Bradley for Wade (only teams from mid majors could offer). I was at Dwyane Wade Day at Richards High School when Tom Crean himself stated that Wade would have crawled on his hands and knees through broken glass to Bloomington if Indiana could have offered him. Same would have been true for any of the big programs. Don't get me wrong - I'm ecstatic he fell into our hands - but that doesn't change the fact that he did just that.

[Golden Avalanche]

There was a book many years ago (The Peter Principle) whose premise was that people tend to climb the ladder until they reach their "level of incompetence", i.e., a job beyond their ability. The Indiana job (once they emerged from rebuild mode) was just that for Tom Crean.

We've had simultaneous discussion points on Scoop (seemingly for the entire nine years) that Crean was incompetent relative to the standing of the Indiana position; and that the Indiana fanbase is delusional and needs to come to terms with their program's actual standing in college basketball in the year 2017.

Tom Crean wasn't coaching a blue-blood program the past nine years. The only people who were holding him to that standard of expectation are Hoosiers in denial and Warriors in schadenfreude. The rest of us have been living in the real world.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Here is an article that lays out D-Wade's side of things

http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/168533026.html

[Lennys Tap]

We've had simultaneous discussion points on Scoop (seemingly for the entire nine years) that Crean was incompetent relative to the standing of the Indiana position; and that the Indiana fanbase is delusional and needs to come to terms with their program's actual standing in college basketball in the year 2017.

Tom Crean wasn't coaching a blue-blood program the past nine years. The only people who were holding him to that standard of expectation are Hoosiers in denial and Warriors in schadenfreude. The rest of us have been living in the real world.

I'm certainly a Warrior, Lanche, though not one in schadenfreude. To me TC was a good placeholder while IU cleaned up Sampson's mess but wasn't the guy to make them a real winner again. Maybe you're right and their destiny is nothing special, but given the wealth of basketball talent in their backyard I think the right guy at least brings them to the cusp of blue blood status - and I think TC proved he's not that guy.