Is Going To College Worth It?

[forgetful]

See the link, that is the all-in number

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1768

Thanks for that link.  I was curious about some of the numbers also re. merit/need. 

One key thing to remember is that the 29% is not even applying for financial aid.  Those are likely of the demographic where the cost of college is minuscule to the net worth of the families, hence no worry even to apply for financial aid.  That group also contains most of the foreign students, who are targeted explicitly because they will pay full book rate. 

The rest, on average are paying only 27k total per year for college, for a grand total of right at $100k.  Given that college will boost average salary (this is current millennial only, so does not consider long term income potential) $17.5k per year.  Devoting that extra income to your debt you'd pay it off in 6 years. 

That income gap though grows significantly with time since graduation, so it is even more of a bargain. 

What I'd like to see as a govt' initiative is to allow graduates to devote as much of their income as they wish, tax free, to pay off student loans. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Forget,

Why don't the high endowment schools like the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, MIT, etc. even charge tuition?  It is well established they can run the universities without charging tuition?

Again, I'm only talking about the select high endowment prestigious universities.  Why don't they pull the trigger and say it's free?

[forgetful]

Forget,

Why don't the high endowment schools like the Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, MIT, etc. even charge tuition?  It is well established they can run the universities without charging tuition?

Again, I'm only talking about the select high endowment prestigious universities.  Why don't they pull the trigger and say it's free?

They have done that.  Most of those schools provide 100% of need and if you are below something like 60k per year, 100% free.  They don't do it for everyone, because they can't do that yet, while still being able to invest in cutting edge research. 

The latter is also part of their mission, and in many regards the bigger part of their mission. 

To address other potential questions, they do not franchise/expand, because then they wouldn't be able to provide essentially free school and maintain the highest levels of research that is the major aspect of their mission.

They've also provided many of their course materials online (lectures, tests etc.), free for anyone.  Expect in 20 years, for them to offer some kind of DIY degree using their trove of online courses.  Other large universities have considered similar models.

Currently the logistics for achieving that and maintaining/verifying the highest quality is not available.

Also, the business people typically kill consideration of any such models as it is contrary to the profit model of education.

[dgies9156]

MU82, is the exact same experience worth it for a kid from a lower income family graduating with $150k in debt?
DG, same question, is this worth a $150k outlay where you're paying it off until 35?

OK, you asked and I am taking the bait.

I was graduated in 1978 and my wife in 1979. She had debt and like MU82, my parents paid for mine. My wife's debt was relatively small because she worked while she was in school. The total debt we had was about $3,000, as I recall. Remember folks, that was 1980. My father worked his way through MU as a full-time postman and swore that was something he did not want his children to have to do.

I told both of my children that if they could do Marquette work and wanted to go Marquette, I'd find a way.  Both have overcome significant learning disabilities (they were adopted from abroad) and are going to school at SIU Carbondale, which has a best-in-the-nation program to support students with learning disabilities. Both still are die-hard Marquette basketball fans (neither has yet to attend a Saluki basketball game) and go with me at Christmas breaks.

All that said, while I have supported Marquette generously over the years, I am disgusted at the cost of an MU education. I had one Marquette representative tell me, "well everyone else is priced this way," to which I said, "I am not everyone else. I am Marquette!" Father Pilarz told me one evening that MU's tuition was necessary because students demanded better recreational facilities and better dorms. I had a really difficult time writing the check after that one.

I won't even get into what the FAFSA said I could afford for college. My response to Ms. Dgies was, "yeah, if I wanted to live under a bridge and rely on the government for retirement!"

The fact is college costs are out of control for some of the same reasons medical costs are out of control -- third party payers. The extreme liberal bent of most colleges also comes out insofar as they can soak well-to-do people to cover their costs and inefficiencies. At SIU, I have two children there but I somehow think I am paying for about 3.5 to 4 students to go there.

Marquette has to get its costs under control. It has to slow the tuition increases and it has to do what it did years ago with Dent Hy -- decide there are some programs that don't make sense and send them to the bottom of Lake Michigan. What those are, I don't know. But I do know this, $150,000 for a Journalism degree that will yield a $35,000 job makes no sense anywhere except in academia.

[source?]

On a somewhat related note, according to the Marquette website the Blue and Gold fund has currently fully endowed 96 of Marquette's 126 athletic scholarships. When this goal is completed is there any chance they start using Blue and Gold to fund achievement scholarships? This seems like a good way to control some of the rising costs.

As another aside, I wonder if the fact that so many are now fully endowed allowed them to add lacrosse and those are the remaining un-endowed scholarships. Either way, the lacrosse scholarships allow many more students to attend MU at a more affordable price point so I am happy to have the sport.

[source?]

Oops, double post.

[MU82]

Isn't MU sticker price $33k/year?  Add in $10k/year for room and board and their is your $150k total price tag.

Who pays sticker? Certainly nobody hurting for money does.

My daughter went to Lawrence, a pricey private college in Appleton. Graduated in 2009, so not all that long ago. Sticker price was shocking. And yet even though my wife and I made what I consider a pretty decent combined salary, she qualified for quite a bit of grant money. Paid less than half of that $150K you keep quoting, including room and board. And Lawrence was more expensive than MU then and still is today ... if one pays sticker. Which only the richy rich do.

This is so typical of you Smuggles. Go for the most extreme, extreme example, regardless of how unrealistic the extreme is.

Again, my wife got a great nursing job after 2 years at Truman College. Cost 1/50th of $150K. It was "worth it." It was her choice. Every student (and parent) has one.

[Tugg Speedman]

Who pays sticker? Certainly nobody hurting for money does.

My daughter went to Lawrence, a pricey private college in Appleton. Graduated in 2009, so not all that long ago. Sticker price was shocking. And yet even though my wife and I made what I consider a pretty decent combined salary, she qualified for quite a bit of grant money. Paid less than half of that $150K you keep quoting, including room and board. And Lawrence was more expensive than MU then and still is today ... if one pays sticker. Which only the richy rich do.

This is so typical of you Smuggles. Go for the most extreme, extreme example, regardless of how unrealistic the extreme is.

Again, my wife got a great nursing job after 2 years at Truman College. Cost 1/50th of $150K. It was "worth it." It was her choice. Every student (and parent) has one.

I guess you missed this post that makes everything here wrong

(I'm thinking of changing my handle to Smuggles)

Actually I underestimated MU's costs ...

2016–17 undergraduate tuition and costs

Cost of Attendance   $53,218
Tuition and Fees       $38,470
Room and Board      $11,440
Books and Supplies  $1,008
Other Expenses        $2,300

71% of the undergraduates get financial aid so 29% pay the sticker price ($212k for four years), not less than 10%.

The 79% getting financial aid get an average of $25,701/year in aid meaning that still pay $27,517/yr in costs ($53,218 - $25,701).  This is $110,168 for 4 years. (higher if costs go up)

The average amount of debt for a 2015 graduate was $37,048 (meaning that half had more).  So that means Mom and Dad forked over $70k to $125k over four years to leave Junior with an average of $37k in debt

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1768

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually I underestimated MU's costs ...

2016–17 undergraduate tuition and costs

Cost of Attendance   $53,218
Tuition and Fees       $38,470
Room and Board      $11,440
Books and Supplies  $1,008
Other Expenses        $2,300

71% of the undergraduates get financial aid so 29% pay the sticker price ($212k for four years), not less than 10%.

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1768

Look at your numbers again.

All Undergraduates
Financial Aid Applicants   5,707 (71.8%) of undergraduates
Found to Have Financial Need   4,519 (56.8%) of applicants
Received Financial Aid   4,510 (99.8%) of applicants with financial need
Need Fully Met   1,171 (26.0%) of aid recipients
Average Percent of Need Met   78%
Average Award   $25,701
Need-Based Gift
Received by 4,423 (98.1%) of aid recipients, average amount $18,681
Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 3,681 (81.6%) of aid recipients, average amount $6,775
Merit-Based Gift
Received by 526 (11.7%) of aid recipients
Merit-Based Gift   3,172 (39.9%) of undergraduates had no financial need and received merit aid, average amount $10,772

According to this site, MU has aproximately 7,950 undergraduates.

4,423 of them receive need based aid (55.6%).

3,172 of them receive no needs based aid but do receive merit based aid. (39.9%)

That's 7,595 students paying less than the stick price. Or 95.5% of undergraduates.

That is less than 10%.

I'm not the best with numbers but I'm pretty sure this is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[forgetful]

Look at your numbers again.

According to this site, MU has aproximately 7,950 undergraduates.

4,423 of them receive need based aid (55.6%).

3,172 of them receive no needs based aid but do receive merit based aid. (39.9%)

That's 7,595 students paying less than the stick price. Or 95.5% of undergraduates.

That is less than 10%.

I'm not the best with numbers but I'm pretty sure this is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Good catch.  Your interpretation and numbers are correct.

[source?]

One other thing; Cost of living is constant whether you go to college or not. You wind up paying a relatively small percentage more to defer paying that cost of living up front if you take out loans for it (once again, a part time job, around 15 hours a week, will go a long way to offset that). You can't just say that is part of the cost of going to college without taking into account the fact that you would still be paying to live either way.

[Tugg Speedman]

Look at your numbers again.

According to this site, MU has aproximately 7,950 undergraduates.

4,423 of them receive need based aid (55.6%).

3,172 of them receive no needs based aid but do receive merit based aid. (39.9%)

That's 7,595 students paying less than the stick price. Or 95.5% of undergraduates.

That is less than 10%.

I'm not the best with numbers but I'm pretty sure this is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Those are not mutually exclusive, a student can receive aid both based on need and merit.

71% of students get aid, 29% don't.

[Jay Bee]

Those are not mutually exclusive, a student can receive aid both based on need and merit.

71% of students get aid, 29% don't.

My goodness... you and numbers sometimes... smh

[Cooby Snacks]

My goodness... you and numbers sometimes... smh

Words, too.

[Tugg Speedman]

My goodness... you and numbers sometimes... smh

Copy and pasted from the website directly. First stat below...

All Undergraduates

Financial Aid Applicants   5,707 (71.8%) of undergraduates

Found to Have Financial Need   4,519 (56.8%) of applicants

Received Financial Aid   4,510 (99.8%) of applicants with financial need

Need Fully Met   1,171 (26.0%) of aid recipients

Average Percent of Need Met   78%
Average Award   $25,701
Need-Based Gift

Received by 4,423 (98.1%) of aid recipients, average amount $18,681

Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 3,681 (81.6%) of aid recipients, average amount $6,775

Merit-Based Gift
Received by 526 (11.7%) of aid recipients

Merit-Based Gift   3,172 (39.9%) of undergraduates had no financial need and received merit aid, average amount $10,772

[forgetful]

Copy and pasted from the website directly. First stat below...

All Undergraduates

Financial Aid Applicants   5,707 (71.8%) of undergraduates

Found to Have Financial Need   4,519 (56.8%) of applicants

Received Financial Aid   4,510 (99.8%) of applicants with financial need

Need Fully Met   1,171 (26.0%) of aid recipients

Average Percent of Need Met   78%
Average Award   $25,701
Need-Based Gift

Received by 4,423 (98.1%) of aid recipients, average amount $18,681

Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 3,681 (81.6%) of aid recipients, average amount $6,775

Merit-Based Gift
Received by 526 (11.7%) of aid recipients

Merit-Based Gift   3,172 (39.9%) of undergraduates had no financial need and received merit aid, average amount $10,772

Yes, lets walk you through what TAMU already said.  There are 7950 undergraduates according to your site.  So percentages will reference this.

4519 students were found to have financial need.  4510 of them received financial aid.

That leave 3431 students that had no financial need. 

The last line specifies that 3172 student WHO HAD NO FINANCIAL NEED received merit aid. 

That means 3172 of the students with no need received merit aid.  That leaves only 259 students out of the total 7950 who received neither need-based or merit-based aid.

So or 3.3% of the students pay full freight.  This is consistent with what I would have expected.  I would guess that about 95% of those students are foreign nationals.  When you had previously listed the 29%, I had thought that was very high, but didn't read close enough...

TAMU gets the reading comprehension gold star.

[MU82]

I guess you missed this post that makes everything here wrong

(I'm thinking of changing my handle to Smuggles)

I guess I did. You kept bringing up the sticker price and how that seemed to prove college isn't "worth it."

Regardless of your handle, you'll always be Smuggles to me, big boy.

[Tugg Speedman]

Let's try it this way ...

Here is MU's latest Annual Report filed on September 9, 2016

http://www.marquette.edu/financeoffice/documents/MUFY16Audit.pdf

Page 3

Operating Revenues

2016
- Student Tuition and Fees Gross  $371.831 Million
  Less: Tuition Discounts              $125.839 Million
         Net Tuition                            $245.992 Million

And what are those student discounts?  They are explained in footnote 16 on page 31

2016
Institutional Revenue Source                  $105.161 Million
Gifts, Grants and Endowments              $20.678 Million
          Total Tuition Discount                   $125.839 Million

So what does this mean in English ....

MU "Sticker Price" is about $38,500.

Total number of MU students is 9,500 (8k Undergraduates and 1500 grad students) times $38,500 = $365.750 Million.  Close enough to the $371.831 million in the annual report (above)

MU has the ability to lower this number by $20.678 million through gifts grants and endowments.  It gets another $105.161 million from "institutional revenue sources" for a total of $125.839 million that MU can lower the sticker price.

That means of the 9,500 students at MU, Mom/Dad or the student are forking over $245.992 million in tuition to MU.  Again this is tuition and fees only, not room-and-board.  (some of this is loans but it is still paid to MU)

Divide this out among 9500 students and that works out to $25,900 per student per year paid by that family to attend MU.   In my post below the estimate was $25,700 a year differing by only $200 per student.

Attending MU, like any other school in this country is far more expensive than you think.  98% of the students are not getting a break on tuition.

You want it to be this way. You know that college tuition is way too expensive and it either prices out poor kids (that could go to MU but go to community college and then UW-Parkside because that is what they can afford) so to make yourself feel better you have to convince yourself that "no one pays the sticker price."  Well 29% do, because college is what the rich do, and the average to get in the door at MU is $25k to $26k/year.  And most parents have more than one kid and often they are all going to college around the same time.  So multiple this by 2 or 3 for the total hit to family finances. 

That is why MU is gridlock with expensive German cars when the students move in around late August.  Poor go to Parkside, rich go to MU.

(this is not unique to MU, they are just our example for all schools).

[Tugg Speedman]

Here is a breakdown of tuition for Jesuit Universiities in the United States.

28 in total, MU ranks #19

http://www.marquette.edu/financeoffice/documents/2015-16AJCUTuitionandFees-10Years.pdf

The most expensive are Boston College and Georgetown at $49k/year (sticker)

So on move-in day MU is full of expensive German cars.  On move-in day in Boston and DC the airports are jammed with private planes bringing those kids to college.

[forgetful]

Did you seriously just go through mental gymnastics to show that on average every student gets a $13k discount on tuition, then claim it proves you right that 29% are paying full freight? 

Wrong.  Your own previous post shows that 97% are getting a discount.

#alternativefacts not accepted here.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Heisy. I don't disagree with your premise that college is too expensive and changes should be made. But you hurt your own cause when you can't just say "oops, I misread that site. I guess 95% don't pay the sticker price. But even so, college is still too expensive."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Copy and pasted from the website directly. First stat below...

All Undergraduates

Financial Aid Applicants   5,707 (71.8%) of undergraduates

Found to Have Financial Need   4,519 (56.8%) of applicants

Received Financial Aid   4,510 (99.8%) of applicants with financial need

Need Fully Met   1,171 (26.0%) of aid recipients

Average Percent of Need Met   78%
Average Award   $25,701
Need-Based Gift

Received by 4,423 (98.1%) of aid recipients, average amount $18,681

Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 3,681 (81.6%) of aid recipients, average amount $6,775

Merit-Based Gift
Received by 526 (11.7%) of aid recipients

Merit-Based Gift   3,172 (39.9%) of undergraduates had no financial need and received merit aid, average amount $10,772

You do know that financial aid applicants does not equal % of students that don't pay the sticker price correct? Hell, it doesn't even mean students that receive financial aid.

[Babybluejeans]

Heisy, I think this is a good debate people should be having. But it seems like you post questions and then don't accept peoples' answers as valid unless they confirm the answer you think it should be. So why ask the question at all?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Wow Heisy-

I'll have to let my dad know he is rich since I went to Marquette.  I never knew a Buick Century was an expensive German car.  Learn something new everyday on Scoop!

[tower912]

Heisy, I think this is a good debate people should be having. But it seems like you post questions and then don't accept peoples' answers as valid unless they confirm the answer you think it should be. So why ask the question at all?

You haven't paid much attention to Heisy over the years, have you?