How Bad Is This For Georgetown?

[brandx]

I don't see any reason for GU to say anything. It is a part of their history.

Should Marquette change its name? After all, Fr Marquette was an instrument in France's Mission Civilisatrice. Some believe, with reason, that European colonization employed conversion to Christianity as a mechanism for subjugating native populations.

One of my colleagues is a Tulalip who had served in the Obama Administration as the Senior Policy Advisor to the Sec of Interior for Natural Resource Management. She is a sophisticated, discerning individual. She knows I am active in my Anglican parish but has said that, like most of the leadership of Indian Country, she has an inherent distrust of all religion because of history.

Fr Marquette was an instrument in the expansion of New France. The French policy of Mission Civilisatrice was effectively cultural genocide. Should Marquette change its name because of that legacy?

I agree completely. Let's not re-rite history - good or bad.

Maybe we should get rid of all references to Jefferson as well - he did own over 600 slaves.

[WarriorFan]

What all these silly kids who are protesting these silly "long gone" issues don't realize is that now - with social media - when they are applying to US for jobs we can tell if they were involved and exclude those who were from consideration from anything with real responsibility in the corporate world.

They're not campaigning for an issue, they're compromising their future.

[GGGG]

What all these silly kids who are protesting these silly "long gone" issues don't realize is that now - with social media - when they are applying to US for jobs we can tell if they were involved and exclude those who were from consideration from anything with real responsibility in the corporate world.

They're not campaigning for an issue, they're compromising their future.

Why would you exclude someone who wants to take a name off of a building if they were otherwise qualified?

[ChicosBailBonds]

People might think better of you if you didn't make things up so often.

If it's people like you, I know I'm doing just fine.  I'm not making up a thing, but keep at it Chuckles.

[keefe]

As a member of the Georgetown community I can assert that this issue is getting zero traction among the Hoya faithful.

In fact, 6' 9" George Murasan walking on is getting more ink than anything else.

Hoya Saxa!

[rocket surgeon]

Why would you exclude someone who wants to take a name off of a building if they were otherwise qualified?

if there were 2, 3, or 4 vying for the same position who didn't partake in activities you deemed questionable or could carry over to your company; are they rabble rousers?  just another piece of data, that's all.  sure you could address it it in an interview and have the applicant expand upon their "philosophies" somewhat without asking them directly what their definitions of free speech and how they would make the world a better place

[Archies Bat]

It used to be considered a good thing for the young to be idealistic before they hit the real world.

Now we want them to get off our lawn.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

A similar story has been going on here locally. 
Due to questions of his relation to slavery, Yale has formed a committee to determine if they should remove John C Calhoun's name from one of the residential colleges. 

[GooooMarquette]

It used to be considered a good thing for the young to be idealistic before they hit the real world.

Now we want them to get off our lawn.

I am completely in favor of young people trying to shape the future, and understanding the past is an important part of that process.

The problem today is that many are trying to erase the past....

[GGGG]

if there were 2, 3, or 4 vying for the same position who didn't partake in activities you deemed questionable or could carry over to your company; are they rabble rousers?  just another piece of data, that's all.  sure you could address it it in an interview and have the applicant expand upon their "philosophies" somewhat without asking them directly what their definitions of free speech and how they would make the world a better place

Unless they did something disruptive or violent during the protest, I wouldn't even think about it. 

To put the shoe on the other foot, how would people feel if job finalists were excluded based on their participating in a pro life protest? 

[GGGG]

I am completely in favor of young people trying to shape the future, and understanding the past is an important part of that process.

The problem today is that many are trying to erase the past....

Asking the University to no longer honor someone by removing their name off a building is not "erasing the past."

[GooooMarquette]

Asking the University to no longer honor someone by removing their name off a building is not "erasing the past."

Of course it isn't - you can't actually erase the past.  I said they're trying to erase the past...which is exactly what is happening.  They are trying to remove a reference to someone who did something bad.

[GGGG]

Of course it isn't - you can't actually erase the past.  I said they're trying to erase the past...which is exactly what is happening.  They are trying to remove a reference to someone who did something bad.

That's not even trying to erase the past.  Removing the name from a building is an act of refusing to honor someone.  Not forgetting the past. 

This is a completely ridiculous example, but if we found out that John Raynor sexually assaulted young boys while Marquette President, I would fully expect that the University would remove his name from the library.  He would no longer deserve that honor.  That's not "trying to erase the past." 

Now if you scrubbed the Raynor name from the archives and otherwise refused to acknowledge that he was a past President of the University, *that* is trying to erase the past.

[GooooMarquette]

That's not even trying to erase the past.  Removing the name from a building is an act of refusing to honor someone.  Not forgetting the past. 

This is a completely ridiculous example, but if we found out that John Raynor sexually assaulted young boys while Marquette President, I would fully expect that the University would remove his name from the library.  He would no longer deserve that honor.  That's not "trying to erase the past." 

Now if you scrubbed the Raynor name from the archives and otherwise refused to acknowledge that he was a past President of the University, *that* is trying to erase the past.

You're right - the Raynor example is ridiculous...because sexual assault was both illegal and viewed by society as immoral at the time of Raynor's tenure.  The GTown example is one where selling slaves wasn't illegal at the time, and society was divided as to its morality...more than 20 years before the Emancipation Proclamation.

Maybe we should just name buildings after people who did nothing illegal or immoral at the time...and nothing that will ever become illegal or viewed as immoral. 

[GGGG]

You're right - the Raynor example is ridiculous...because sexual assault was both illegal and viewed by society as immoral at the time of Raynor's tenure.  The GTown example is one where selling slaves wasn't illegal at the time, and society was divided as to its morality...more than 20 years before the Emancipation Proclamation.

I agree with you.  I don't think his name should be removed for the reasons you cited.  However I just don't like the idea that protesters are trying to "erase the past" by trying to remove his name.

[MU82]

The problem today is that many are trying to erase the past....

Which I guess is the opposite of the Trumpites and other selective-memory types who are always trying to relive the past and "Make America Great Again."

[GooooMarquette]

I agree with you.  I don't think his name should be removed for the reasons you cited.  However I just don't like the idea that protesters are trying to "erase the past" by trying to remove his name.

But think of the effect they have by simply removing the name - the discussion of the good and bad things he did is a news story for a couple of weeks, then quickly gets lost.  "Erased" for practical purposes.  If they keep the name there...and also erect some sort of plaque discussing and acknowledging his good and bad accomplishments, it better serves to educate and inform the present and future.

[brandx]

Of course it isn't - you can't actually erase the past.  I said they're trying to erase the past...which is exactly what is happening.  They are trying to remove a reference to someone who did something bad.

I don't know. I'm not quite sure where the line needs to be drawn between not trying to re-write history and honoring someone who was a bad person by keeping their name on a building, money, etc.


It's easy when it is about an issue like the Confederate flag being given a place of honor. It was a symbol of the fight to retain slavery and of the states who killed tens and tens of thousands of American soldiers.

It's a little trickier when it comes to people. We can't use today's standards as a litmus test for someone who lived hundreds of years ago. We want to compartmentalize everybody, but it is not that simple.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't know. I'm not quite sure where the line needs to be drawn between not trying to re-write history and honoring someone who was a bad person by keeping their name on a building, money, etc.


It's easy when it is about an issue like the Confederate flag being given a place of honor. It was a symbol of the fight to retain slavery and of the states who killed tens and tens of thousands of American soldiers.

It's a little trickier when it comes to people. We can't use today's standards as a litmus test for someone who lived hundreds of years ago. We want to compartmentalize everybody, but it is not that simple.

Context would be my guide, brand. If an accomplished person from another era held views which were (in his or her day) mainstream (even if controversial) I would cut him slack, even if those views are pretty much universally condemned today. I think people who ignore context are as ignorant as those who are biblical literalists.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Which I guess is the opposite of the Trumpites and other selective-memory types who are always trying to relive the past and "Make America Great Again."

Guess you don't  read the news much

[GooooMarquette]

Context would be my guide, brand. If an accomplished person from another era held views which were (in his or her day) mainstream (even if controversial) I would cut him slack, even if those views are pretty much universally condemned today. I think people who ignore context are as ignorant as those who are biblical literalists.

I agree with brandx that it's tricky when we're judging people by their actions, and your point about context is kind of what I was trying to say when I distinguished the Raynor hypothetical from the Georgetown situation.

It still doesn't make for an easy answer, but judgments are more informed if they take into account the context in which actions occurred.

[GGGG]

Guess you don't  read the news much

I get all my news from Heisenberg.

[brandx]

I agree with brandx that it's tricky when we're judging people by their actions, and your point about context is kind of what I was trying to say when I distinguished the Raynor hypothetical from the Georgetown situation.

It still doesn't make for an easy answer, but judgments are more informed if they take into account the context in which actions occurred.

I think you, Lenny, and I are all trying to say the same thing here.

[mu03eng]

I get all my news from Heisenberg.

So does Matty V

[rocket surgeon]

Unless they did something disruptive or violent during the protest, I wouldn't even think about it. 

To put the shoe on the other foot, how would people feel if job finalists were excluded based on their participating in a pro life protest?

well this would all depend on who the employer is.  chick-fil-a?  they may want to check out some alternatives for example.  see if they have any better candidates.  how big of a role certain things play in a job interview depends on the philosophy of the employer