Why is the Law School Falling in USWNR?

[jficke13]

Bear in mind that the better the law school you go to, the better the odds on your lottery ticket become. While less than 10% of my graduating class at MULS got "biglaw" jobs, that percentage is much much higher in Yale's graduating class. When I talk to people considering law school I tell them to take the LSAT and apply; if they get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, I say go. If not, then you either better know for sure that you want to be a lawyer and have the inside track on getting a job as one (dad's a partner or some such), or you better not be the one paying for the degree.

Weirdly enough, MULS is nowhere near the price of some schools that are objectively far worse. I guess that's one thing that it has going for it?

[mu03eng]

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

My belief is simple:  There are too many JD programs/slots and too many people who erroneously think a JD is a magical path to riches.  There are too many MBA programs/slots and too may people who erroneously think an MBA is a magical path to riches.  And many on both pathways are on their way to disappointment.

The minor differences you raise, IMO, are just background noise.

Welcome to the world of degree creep. Undergraduate degrees no longer differentiate candidates so now advanced degrees are required. There are too many JDs in the world so what job a JD is willing to do(floor) has decreased, which devalues the degree over all as well.

[keefe]

The problem with MBAs now is that every college has one so there is little value if you have the degree from 90% of them.  I mean...

http://www.alverno.edu/mba/

http://www.mtmary.edu/majors-programs/graduate/mba/

http://www.carrollu.edu/gradprograms/mba/

Thank God my MBA from University of Phoenix has escaped your scorn and ridicule!

 

[jficke13]

[...]

There are too many JDs in the world so what job a JD is willing to do(floor) has decreased, which devalues the degree over all as well.

We haven't even discussed the secular changes to the way legal work is being performed and the seismic post-2008 change in what clients are willing to pay for.

The days of clients paying $250+/hr for 1st year associates to review documents is over... so now firms can support fewer 1st year associate positions. Plus, with doc review outsourcing firms, the firm can get the work done for cheaper. Not to mention the fact that computer-assisted review (think IBM's Watson) stands a decent chance of completely taking over all the grunt doc review/due diligence work, which will eliminate even more young associate jobs.

The industry is getting more lean, which is a good thing for everyone not trying to be a lawyer.

People are getting into the 2L year and realizing that the corporate law jobs are simply not available to them, and then before they know it, they're in the deathmatch race to the bottom for a job working for a bankruptcy mill like Geraci, or coming on as some solo or two-man-shop's indentured servant.

True story, shortly after graduating, I interviewed with a two-attorney firm in Waukesha. The starting salary they offered was $29k. I didn't take that job, but someone from my class did. Somehow, I doubt it was what they had in mind when they went to MULS.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Bear in mind that the better the law school you go to, the better the odds on your lottery ticket become. While less than 10% of my graduating class at MULS got "biglaw" jobs, that percentage is much much higher in Yale's graduating class. When I talk to people considering law school I tell them to take the LSAT and apply; if they get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, I say go. If not, then you either better know for sure that you want to be a lawyer and have the inside track on getting a job as one (dad's a partner or some such), or you better not be the one paying for the degree.

Weirdly enough, MULS is nowhere near the price of some schools that are objectively far worse. I guess that's one thing that it has going for it?

This is a critical point to remember.  It isn't a blind lottery: the information is out there if you are a smart law school applicant.  If you can go to a T-14 or alternatively, a T-50 with substantial scholarship, then law school can still be a sound financial proposition. 

Problem most law school applicants are not realistic enough to look at it through an objective lens. And with many of the middle of the law school applicant  pool deciding to forego law school, we are seeing more and more schools preying on the naive.   

[jficke13]

This is a critical point to remember.  It isn't a blind lottery: the information is out there if you are a smart law school applicant.  If you can go to a T-14 or alternatively, a T-50 with substantial scholarship, then law school can still be a sound financial proposition. 

Problem most law school applicants are not realistic enough to look at it through an objective lens. And with many of the middle of the law school applicant  pool deciding to forego law school, we are seeing more and more schools preying on the naive.   

Hence my belief that we should close 50% of the existing law schools. Besides, there are plenty of T50 grads thrust into the same middle-class-if-they're-lucky race because of the incredible oversupply of competition.

The ABA's role really should be to protect the value of the license for its members. They have abdicated that duty in the worst way to the life-ruining detriment of many of those it claims to represent.

[keefe]

Muttman said that he chose "The Law" because he has been able to save money on gym memberships...

[GooooMarquette]

Bear in mind that the better the law school you go to, the better the odds on your lottery ticket become. While less than 10% of my graduating class at MULS got "biglaw" jobs, that percentage is much much higher in Yale's graduating class. When I talk to people considering law school I tell them to take the LSAT and apply; if they get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, I say go. If not, then you either better know for sure that you want to be a lawyer and have the inside track on getting a job as one (dad's a partner or some such), or you better not be the one paying for the degree.

I'm not sure I'd limit it just to Harvard, Yale and Stanford, but the point is correct.  My oldest daughter is considering law school, and has already decided that she won't apply to anything outside the top 20 or so.

[Mug Rack]

The practical line is the top 14 law schools (usually Georgetown and better).  If you go to one of those schools, you will be marketable to big firms even as an average or below-average student.  Moving down to other schools in the top 20 (like Iowa), that's not true at all.  I think your daughter's chances of getting a job at a big firm are much better going to Marquette than to Iowa.  Yeah, Iowa is better, but it's much easier to be in the top 10% at Marquette than at Iowa.  I'd much rather be job hunting as a Marquette student in the top 10% and on law review than an Iowa student in the top 25% and not on law review.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

The practical line is the top 14 law schools (usually Georgetown and better).  If you go to one of those schools, you will be marketable to big firms even as an average or below-average student.  Moving down to other schools in the top 20 (like Iowa), that's not true at all.  I think your daughter's chances of getting a job at a big firm are much better going to Marquette than to Iowa.  Yeah, Iowa is better, but it's much easier to be in the top 10% at Marquette than at Iowa.  I'd much rather be job hunting as a Marquette student in the top 10% and on law review than an Iowa student in the top 25% and not on law review.

Not so sure about that. From what I hear, even MULS law reviewers can have trouble finding gigs these days.

[jficke13]

The practical line is the top 14 law schools (usually Georgetown and better).  If you go to one of those schools, you will be marketable to big firms even as an average or below-average student.  Moving down to other schools in the top 20 (like Iowa), that's not true at all.  I think your daughter's chances of getting a job at a big firm are much better going to Marquette than to Iowa.  Yeah, Iowa is better, but it's much easier to be in the top 10% at Marquette than at Iowa.  I'd much rather be job hunting as a Marquette student in the top 10% and on law review than an Iowa student in the top 25% and not on law review.

If you're entire play is "where is it easier to be in the top 10%" you're thinking right, but aiming wrong. Law school is a set of rules you need to exploit, not an environment in which to learn. You absolutely should be thinking "what's the easiest A" and "what class won't have a mandatory curve," not "what will teach me the most," because no class will teach you anything useful anyway. You should be exploiting the system to give yourself the best shot at the top 10%, but I wouldn't drop 100 spots in the rankings just to be the smart kid in school. You might as well go to Cooley if you want to do that.

[Mug Rack]

Not so sure about that. From what I hear, even MULS law reviewers can have trouble finding gigs these days.

Agree with that, but also think the kid at Iowa in the top 25% and not on law review is having much trouble finding a big law gig.  Pretty sure the Iowa kid is in worse shape.  (Although if the Iowa kid is paying way less, that helps.)

[keefe]

If you're entire play is "where is it easier to be in the top 10%" you're thinking right, but aiming wrong. Law school is a set of rules you need to exploit, not an environment in which to learn. You absolutely should be thinking "what's the easiest A" and "what class won't have a mandatory curve," not "what will teach me the most," because no class will teach you anything useful anyway. You should be exploiting the system to give yourself the best shot at the top 10%, but I wouldn't drop 100 spots in the rankings just to be the smart kid in school. You might as well go to Cooley if you want to do that.

Crafted as only an attorney could!

What is Cooley, by the way? The University of Phoenix of law schools?

[HouWarrior]

So far I have read and steered clear of this, with reason. My experience was of another era and not relevant to an MU Law discussion.  In the late 70s, I applied to 4 law schools...3 “top tier”, ie.. in the top 50 (UW, UT, and UH)...and MU law, as it was my undergrad alma mater. All 4 quickly accepted me, …I chose UH ( the UH choice was almost totally due to family and money issues—I paid for my own college and law school)…. as even back then ….MU was sadly just a safety school.

Grading onto Law review (which was a simple matter of top 5%, after year one)...my job choices were easy, Houston was booming, and we were actually wined and dined to make our job picks. Big Firms would salary outbid each other and you could choose your practice area. Those were the days, my friend; we’d thought they’d never end… (good song- lol). I rode a very nice wave; but,   that was anachronistic then, even more so today.

That era and world will never return, and so I'll set aside my historical reference....trying to instead stay hip to todays circumstances...which are brutal/impossible in comparison. By current example, my client’s daughter was Cornell undergrad, NYU law top 10% JD...then, she came home to LLM in Energy (Oil & Gas) program at UH law ..the best …and after completing all this , there were few job options…she is simply in house for the family’s oil company. The same resume… in my time ….would have you on partner track at a big firm, big clients and very well paid. Let me then turn to todays climate, and the postings here.

I do agree with those saying you get a JD to be a lawyer. The rigorous study, the “thinking/analysis” methods learned are helpful elsewhere…but a JD is to lawyer…which is a fine profession. MBAs can be valued added in a huge range of fields, bringing better training, analysis and decision making to business. Both are worth getting, as any educational self-improvement will enrich your mind, which is far more valuable than the money.

Lawyering , however, is only a fine profession… if you have the right perspective and reasons, going in. There are tons of easier ways to make money, …so money should never be key, or ever a major reason to become an attorney. Likewise… Those putting down the money of lawyering, are on the outside, often insistent they not be criticized for what they do or think , but plenty willing to put down other moccasins in which they have never trod. If you can’t stand the Lawyer jokes/ insults, go choose a job based on others opinions and favorable view of you…even if you hate that work…at least people will like you…but wow,…that’s pretty shallow….your self- respect can never come from the opinions of others .

Posters considering/about to become lawyers…just take that stuff in stride…its them not you…because…. At its essence it’s a hard working service business …you must first want to do this because you really like helping people. Very complex, intellectually challenging Problems/fights will be brought to you that regular folks haven’t/cant solve…you are in a unique position of trust and responsibility to help steer them through our courts, or other systems, to follow the rules and to resolve the most difficult issues many face. It’s a real high to learn to do this well. Any poster here that want to/are considering do this…should be encouraged….but mainly and only if they go into it with this view.

I haven’t a clue on the MU Law situation. One could note an easy Scooper parallel…Great professors (who get the big $$, tenure, publishing etc), and great law programs are built with lots of tradition and vast resources. MU law is kind of a mid major, at best. That’s Ok but the new economic brutalities of law have rendered school rank more key than before…but yes a TRUE excellent top grad can excel and succeed from many beginnings, including MU Law. MU Law serves a valuable role..it merits support and improvement…and its grads should get access to join the profession.

When you are  first out ....make certain you get the best experience, mentoring, exposure you can ....learn from the best….if the posting on the 28k job offer included great lawyers and all these pluses…it was worth taking. A 2-10K better offer lacking these ingredients is a worse job…in the long run for your skills/career. Learn you craft…the money will follow your dedication, skill, and hard work…Its not easy money, ever. Dont think it will be.

I capped TRUE in the ppf above to note something. At top 10 law schools recruiters aren’t given rank or transcripts; the “presumption"  being that if you are here you are automatically skilled/hard working and capable of handling the work offered. The further down the tiers…the opposite becomes true. Law review, class rank, grade transcripts are more key as the admissions, reputation, and competition are becoming diluted. Therefore …I have a huge problem with the poster seeking to scam class rank with easy A’s/ manipulation of rank….thats BS. Character revealed. You should try the hardest work, the most competition and most challenging things in school…as lawyering will be even harder. Cutting a corner now means you may cut one as a lawyer. Don’t do it. You do realize recruiters want your transcript and any suspicion of easy A’s is far worse than a C in an uber difficult upper level course. At UH law we had an enforced 75 median grade point average….it prevented easy A’s and possible BS in our rankings. Recruiters knew my 93 really meant something….no such thing as an easy A or B….this school rose in the national rankings due, in part,  to its take no prisoners grading policy (…even if it destroyed many of our egos who had been used to straight A’s-lol).

I agree with those posting of the overpopulation and over production of JDs….but would never revert to the AMA system of high control of numbers of students and doctors, which almost artificially drives up doctor income and the costs to consumers..heck lawyers WISH there was insurance, like doctors, to pay fees. Lol  . One of the reasons you like doctors better than  lawyers is someone else pays them… we have to go straight for your own income pocketbook for our fees…ouch…damn lawyers. Lol

I don’t think we need to intentionally act to reduce JD production….the market and competition takes care of only the best succeeding, and always will. However, I wouldn’t mind a bunch of the bottom schools shuttering forever…almost like online colleges…they are increasingly selling a pipe dream of graduation success. A starting point is closing every unranked school on the list.

Yes, I agree the industry is generally leaner than ever before ( I still remember the inefficiency of carbon paper….a full day to get out one pleading). Our courts are leaner…we file pdfs by email….rows of filing cabinets and paper are gone. Because of our process, formalities and fairness rules, the system will always be too complex and not easily or cheaply accessed by most regular people…but its getting better..not worse…something most industry here in the USA cant say. We need service committed youth to keep replenishing and improving our profession.

PS Oh yes...also....Get a great secretary...my personal typing and proofing of posts here is not of the perfect standards expected of  lawyers/judges.

[Coleman]

I've said before that either there need to be 50% fewer law schools or each law school needs to admit 50% fewer people.

Unfortunately, with UW ranked nearly 100 spots ahead of MU, it's pretty obvious which should survive in my 50% culling scenario. I find myself advocating for the closure of my alma mater.

There probably need to be fewer law schools in the United States. I agree with you there.

But looking at Wisconsin, I think its about right. 2 law schools for a state our size seems right. Compare with the number law schools in Illinois (9) or Michigan (6) or Indiana (4), especially ones ranked outside of the Top 100.

Looking at it by state is especially important, given the tie-in MU and UW Law Schools have with the Wisconsin Bar.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

By current example, my client’s daughter was Cornell undergrad, NYU law top 10% JD...then, she came home to LLM in Energy (Oil & Gas) program at UH law ..the best …and after completing all this , there were few job options…she is simply in house for the family’s oil company. The same resume… in my time ….would have you on partner track at a big firm, big clients and very well paid. Let me then turn to todays climate, and the postings here.

Okay... no offense, but your client is feeding you a steaming pile of sh*t.  The market is bad, but it isn't that bad.  An honors NYU grad with connections in the oil and gas industry is not going to be struggling for job options at big firms.  You sure she didn't go to New York Law School?  Was she capable of stringing together words into complete sentences during OCI?

[jficke13]

There probably need to be fewer law schools in the United States. I agree with you there.

But looking at Wisconsin, I think its about right. 2 law schools for a state our size seems right. Compare with the number law schools in Illinois (9) or Michigan (6) or Indiana (4), especially ones ranked outside of the Top 100.

Looking at it by state is especially important, given the tie-in MU and UW Law Schools have with the Wisconsin Bar.

The idea that MU and UW are both good schools is the sales pitch that makes diploma privilege work. I buy the idea that a state of Wisconsin's size benefits from having two law schools. In reality, however, when the graduating classes of those schools are double the number of entry level lawyer jobs, then we have too much educational capacity for the size of our market.

The fact that Wisconsin is closer to having the right amount of educational capacity compared to a state like Michigan doesn't make Wisconsin good, it just illustrates how much worse it could be.

Also, if the cut off is "schools outside the top 100," well...  MULS would have a distinct pot/kettle problem.

[Coleman]

The idea that MU and UW are both good schools is the sales pitch that makes diploma privilege work. I buy the idea that a state of Wisconsin's size benefits from having two law schools. In reality, however, when the graduating classes of those schools are double the number of entry level lawyer jobs, then we have too much educational capacity for the size of our market.

The fact that Wisconsin is closer to having the right amount of educational capacity compared to a state like Michigan doesn't make Wisconsin good, it just illustrates how much worse it could be.

Also, if the cut off is "schools outside the top 100," well...  MULS would have a distinct pot/kettle problem.

Perhaps the problem is not only that there are too many schools (which there admittedly are), but also that schools are admitting too many applicants.

If MU and UW decreased class sizes by 25-50%, that would relieve the pressure of new applicants on the job market, and also remove the lowest-qualified folks, who are most likely to remain unemployed or underemployed (and probably boost MULS's rankings as well).

Of course, how do you force a school to do this, when it basically means giving up free revenue? Perhaps additional rules by State Bar associations are needed for law school class sizes which can be adjusted by demand within the legal job market. I'm not sure.

[jficke13]

Perhaps the problem is not only that there are too many schools (which there admittedly are), but also that schools are admitting too many applicants.

If MU and UW decreased class sizes by 25-50%, that would relieve the pressure of new applicants on the job market, and also remove the lowest-qualified folks, who are most likely to remain unemployed or underemployed (and probably boost MULS's rankings as well).

Of course, how do you force a school to do this, when it basically means giving up free revenue? Perhaps additional rules by State Bar associations are needed for law school class sizes which can be adjusted by demand within the legal job market. I'm not sure.

Agreed re class size. That's why I started my rant about the culling as either 50% of law schools or 50% of the admitted classes.

You are also dead on that there is absolutely no incentive to reduce class size or to charge less money, because with a checkbook and a pulse you can get all the federally guaranteed loans necessary to pay any amount to any school. When you default on those loans, the schools are paid so they don't really care anymore.

As for what reducing class size would do to ranking? Honestly, not sure. MULS should hire a consultant whose sole job is to game the rankings. Northeastern did so for its undergrad:

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/08/26/how-northeastern-gamed-the-college-rankings/

[keefe]

Okay... no offense, but your client is feeding you a steaming pile of sh*t.  The market is bad, but it isn't that bad.  An honors NYU grad with connections in the oil and gas industry is not going to be struggling for job options at big firms.  You sure she didn't go to New York Law School?  Was she capable of stringing together words into complete sentences during OCI?

What's her cup size?

[HouWarrior]

Okay... no offense, but your client is feeding you a steaming pile of sh*t.  The market is bad, but it isn't that bad.  An honors NYU grad with connections in the oil and gas industry is not going to be struggling for job options at big firms.  You sure she didn't go to New York Law School?  Was she capable of stringing together words into complete sentences during OCI?

Do you presume to know more of this situation than I? Over 20 years, I have grown very close to this family. I have known her since she was in high school. I speak with her directly about once a month. I visited her at NYU. I helped her LLM work. I know every firm she has applied to and their response.

 When the O&G business shuts down acquisitions, and most production and development (which is what has occurred with this glut) outside lawyers are only used for downstream services, lease renewal and pipeline/refinery regulatory work. So Yes O&G law sections are not hiring....the existing lawyers/staff is more than enough to handle the reduced workloads. During the Bankruptcy boom of the mid 80s our 250 person firm froze O&G, Real Estate section hiring. Partners stay, but associates and new hires are where adjustments downward can most easily be made, in response to law business downturns. But you know better lol

Please dont impugn someone you dont know with cracks about stringing sentences together....this person is very articulate, smart and gifted...not that you deserve to know.

Private firms are not expanding their O&G sections during times of billion plus paper losses at the majors, massive industry layoffs, etc Its not surprising.

Clearly This young lady could find employment out of her chosen field...the resume would get her into a practice in other areas...but her chosen field is currently dry. It happens. Her choice to "stay in the Biz", by working at the family oil company was her only and best option.

Please knock off the conclusory,  insulting stuff on something as here which you know nothing of.

[HouWarrior]

What's her cup size?

An officer and a gentlemen?

[MerrittsMustache]

Clearly This young lady could find employment out of her chosen field...the resume would get her into a practice in other areas...but her chosen field is currently dry. It happens. Her choice to "stay in the Biz", by working at the family oil company was her only and best option.

No one that I know whose family runs a business wanted to go into their family business when they finished school. They all worked some other place or tried to land a job at some other place and then, all of sudden, working for ma and pa didn't seem too bad.

I am by no means attempting to criticize this young lady. Just pointing out that working for your family's company is typically a pretty good gig even when it wasn't the first option.

[Benny B]

Okay... no offense, but your client is feeding you a steaming pile of sh*t.  The market is bad, but it isn't that bad.  An honors NYU grad with connections in the oil and gas industry is not going to be struggling for job options at big firms.  You sure she didn't go to New York Law School?  Was she capable of stringing together words into complete sentences during OCI?

Nobody is hiring oil & gas right now.  Even if you were the top of your class at Yale and didn't rape anyone, if you're at a big firm working oil & gas, you better hope you have seniority.

[jficke13]

[...]
Clearly This young lady could find employment out of her chosen field...the resume would get her into a practice in other areas...but her chosen field is currently dry. [..]

Yes. Her T14 pedigree gives her the ability to choose options in other fields. 90% of the non T14 people don't have that option.