Amittedly not proud of this ...

[MU82]

I coach a middle-school girls basketball team. For the first time in school history, we reached the conference title game last season, but we lost to a better team (and a better-coached team, IMHO). Our top three scorers graduated but I have two very good players and three nice role players. We're quite athletic and, for a girls' team, very aggressive.

Anyway, we usually play on Tuesdays and Thursdays but our game yesterday was moved to January at the request of our opponent. So we had the day off. Our next two games, right after the Thanksgiving holiday, are vs. the team that beat us for the title and vs. the team we beat in the semifinals. went into this season believing both teams would be strong again and one of the three of us would win it all this year.

I noticed on the league-wide schedule that those two teams happened to be playing each other yesterday. So yes, I decided to go scout a middle-school basketball game.

It was at a Christian school, so I waited until after the prayer and anthem so I could slink in with my hat pulled low. I was worried that if I had to take off my hat for those rituals, I'd be recognized. I sat in the back like some kind of lurker. I didn't write anything down but took all kinds of mental notes. About a minute before the end of the game (which was a rout), I quickly left and went to my car, where I jotted down everything I had just seen.

I probably shouldn't feel guilty but I do. A little, anyway.

Then again, it is my job as a coach to put my players in the best position to succeed. And purely from a basketball coaching standpoint, I am absolutely glad I did this.

I learned a lot, and the result was the exact opposite from what I had expected. The team I thought would be better (last year's champs) ended up getting routed; they had lost their two best players to graduation and the other team had improved a lot.

Therefore, doing this will make the practice we spend preparing for these games -- one 2-hour practice the week of those games -- infinitely more efficient and productive.

But no, I'm not especially proud of scouting a middle-school basketball game.

[MerrittsMustache]

I coach a middle-school girls basketball team. For the first time in school history, we reached the conference title game last season, but we lost to a better team (and a better-coached team, IMHO). Our top three scorers graduated but I have two very good players and three nice role players. We're quite athletic and, for a girls' team, very aggressive.

Anyway, we usually play on Tuesdays and Thursdays but our game yesterday was moved to January at the request of our opponent. So we had the day off. Our next two games, right after the Thanksgiving holiday, are vs. the team that beat us for the title and vs. the team we beat in the semifinals. went into this season believing both teams would be strong again and one of the three of us would win it all this year.

I noticed on the league-wide schedule that those two teams happened to be playing each other yesterday. So yes, I decided to go scout a middle-school basketball game.

It was at a Christian school, so I waited until after the prayer and anthem so I could slink in with my hat pulled low. I was worried that if I had to take off my hat for those rituals, I'd be recognized. I sat in the back like some kind of lurker. I didn't write anything down but took all kinds of mental notes. About a minute before the end of the game (which was a rout), I quickly left and went to my car, where I jotted down everything I had just seen.

I probably shouldn't feel guilty but I do. A little, anyway.

Then again, it is my job as a coach to put my players in the best position to succeed. And purely from a basketball coaching standpoint, I am absolutely glad I did this.

I learned a lot, and the result was the exact opposite from what I had expected. The team I thought would be better (last year's champs) ended up getting routed; they had lost their two best players to graduation and the other team had improved a lot.

Therefore, doing this will make the practice we spend preparing for these games -- one 2-hour practice the week of those games -- infinitely more efficient and productive.

But no, I'm not especially proud of scouting a middle-school basketball game.

Are you sure you didn't go to the MU game? They got routed and looked a lot like a middle school girls team last night. Hey-o!

In all seriousness...

My father was a long-time HS football coach and in the last couple of years, I've started coaching my kids' teams (t-ball, LL, b-ball). The only piece of advice he gave me in regards to coaching young kids was "Make sure that you're doing it for them, not for you." In other words, don't go scout a middle school girls team to help YOU want to win the conference championship. Do it to help THE KIDS win the conference championship. It seems like you did this for the right reasons, given your slight guilt.

Best of luck this season!

[warriorchick]

So this is the excuse you gave to the police for why you were loitering near a bunch of 12-year-old girls?

[tower912]

Coaching a 5th grade boys team.   By my estimate, between boys basketball, girls basketball, little league baseball, girls softball, volleyball, I have coached 21 teams.    This is the least experienced team I have ever had for what they are going to be doing.    First practice, I had one player who could dribble from one end of the floor to the other.    So, I have spent more time on the most basic fundamentals than I have with any other team.   Each and every team is a different adventure.   And, since so far the kids are working hard and wanting to learn, it has been a blast. 

[CTWarrior]

Coaching a 5th grade boys team.   By my estimate, between boys basketball, girls basketball, little league baseball, girls softball, volleyball, I have coached 21 teams.    This is the least experienced team I have ever had for what they are going to be doing.    First practice, I had one player who could dribble from one end of the floor to the other.    So, I have spent more time on the most basic fundamentals than I have with any other team.   Each and every team is a different adventure.   And, since so far the kids are working hard and wanting to learn, it has been a blast.

I'm in that range for number of teams coached, probably a little higher, and in all the same sports including volleyball, about which I know next to nothing.  One of the most fun teams I ever had as a coach was coaching a 5th/6th grade boys basketball team that only had a couple of kids who could really play at the first practice.  But we taught them basic give and gos and pick and rolls and to play super-aggressive defense and dominated the league despite not having near the best talent.  Coachable kids are so enjoyable even if you don't win.

I've also had the opposite experience of coaching some talented teams that haven't done nearly as well as I thought they should have.  I coached an 8th grade league about 10 years ago that drove me bonkers because we were easily the most talented team in the league but they refused to be coached and we finished around .500.  This was a league where the kids were guaranteed minutes and there is very little you can do since you can't just bench them.  I used to come home fuming after their games.  There is nothing more frustrating than coaching kids like that.

Girls are infinitely more coachable than boys in basketball.  They will always at least try to do what you're teaching them.

Finally, sad to say, I've scouted opponents in low age leagues, too.  At least it was only when their games immediately succeeded or preceded mine.

[StillAWarrior]

Please tell me that you didn't furtively video tape.  If not, I think you're probably OK.

[Benny B]

Ask yourself this... what does your team expect from its coach?  Shot in the dark, but I'm guessing the top reason would have something to do with player development & improvement.

Scouting another team can serve a greater purpose than merely trying to exploit another team's weaknesses for your own good.   It can also provide an opportunity to prepare for another team's strengths, and in the process, expose the girls to new skills & mindsets regardless of the outcome of the game.

It also provides you, as a coach, the opportunity to expand your own horizons by observation.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard a coach say to his assistant or captain something along the lines of "we should try something like that in practice next week" during a game back in my days officiating youth hockey.  And I always thought of saying the same thing in response (though never did): "Actually coach, if you had tried something like that in practice last week, we might actually have a game on our hands."

Of course, if you're scouting the Zionsville middle school girls team with your friend Jared, then I'd be worried... it boils down to intent.  But no, I wouldn't feel bad if I were you, just so long as you apply what you learned appropriately.

[Jay Bee]

Should have been in there with a camera and followed it up with a film review session with the team.

[Skitch]

You should find a way to get the opponents medical records like in The Longest Yard.

[MU82]

I have enjoyed all the responses so far. Chuckled a few times.

No videotaping was done. As I said, I didn't even bring a pen and paper. I didn't want to stick out, and I don't believe I did.

Was some of what I did for me instead of for the kids? I suppose that's possible, but I prefer to think that it was for me AND for the kids. I also know that the players in their third year are 0-5 against our rival, including the championship loss, and several stated in their preseason goals that they wanted to beat this team.

This experience definitely will help me coach the team better. It will make practice time more efficient, and I really liked the defense one of the teams played. I am not at all above stealing ideas!

I absolutely agree with CTWarrior's assertion that girls are more coachable. They want to learn. They want to get better. They are open-minded. They assume the coach knows more than they do. They very much pull for their teammates to excel. This group has been a blast.

[Herman Cain]

I coach a middle-school girls basketball team. For the first time in school history, we reached the conference title game last season, but we lost to a better team (and a better-coached team, IMHO). Our top three scorers graduated but I have two very good players and three nice role players. We're quite athletic and, for a girls' team, very aggressive.

Anyway, we usually play on Tuesdays and Thursdays but our game yesterday was moved to January at the request of our opponent. So we had the day off. Our next two games, right after the Thanksgiving holiday, are vs. the team that beat us for the title and vs. the team we beat in the semifinals. went into this season believing both teams would be strong again and one of the three of us would win it all this year.

I noticed on the league-wide schedule that those two teams happened to be playing each other yesterday. So yes, I decided to go scout a middle-school basketball game.

It was at a Christian school, so I waited until after the prayer and anthem so I could slink in with my hat pulled low. I was worried that if I had to take off my hat for those rituals, I'd be recognized. I sat in the back like some kind of lurker. I didn't write anything down but took all kinds of mental notes. About a minute before the end of the game (which was a rout), I quickly left and went to my car, where I jotted down everything I had just seen.

I probably shouldn't feel guilty but I do. A little, anyway.

Then again, it is my job as a coach to put my players in the best position to succeed. And purely from a basketball coaching standpoint, I am absolutely glad I did this.

I learned a lot, and the result was the exact opposite from what I had expected. The team I thought would be better (last year's champs) ended up getting routed; they had lost their two best players to graduation and the other team had improved a lot.

Therefore, doing this will make the practice we spend preparing for these games -- one 2-hour practice the week of those games -- infinitely more efficient and productive.

But no, I'm not especially proud of scouting a middle-school basketball game.

Scouting the opponent no matter what the age or sport is a good thing to do.  The whole objective in middle school is to have fun and grow your understanding of the game.  The scouting allows you to add a new dimension allowing your own team to gain a better understanding of what you are trying to do. At the end of the day the kids will have more fun if they perform better. Lots of coaches scout teams at the middle school level. 

[MU82]

Scouting the opponent no matter what the age or sport is a good thing to do.  The whole objective in middle school is to have fun and grow your understanding of the game.  The scouting allows you to add a new dimension allowing your own team to gain a better understanding of what you are trying to do. At the end the kids will have more fun if they perform better. Lots of coaches scout teams at the middle school level.

I like this perspective.

Plus, although I'm not a kid myself, I am a relatively young coach. This is only my third season and I definitely am still learning.

[RushmoreAcademy]

I'm not saying anything about you, because I don't know you as a person, but oddly enough I coach a middle school girls team and have for 10 years.  We were once an 8 seed and basically had a play in game to get the right to get destroyed by a 1 seed.  The coach of that team came to scout.  I was embarrassed for him.  I could have given him every play we ran with the same result, because that year I had 8 girls who had never played and we could barely get the ball across half court.   All I could think was that I hope he didn't have a family or children who would have benefited from him spending time with them.
I've had really good teams that have won it all, and very bad teams that have lost nearly every game. When I first started I was overly coachy, and as the years went, there were more and more coaches that made me sick, screaming at the girls and cursing at refs who made 20 bucks a game. Some of it was deplorable.
 I now try my best to make sure that the girls are learning as much as possible about the game, how offenses work, etc (girls watch SO much less basketball on TV which definitely puts them at a disadvantage at that age) and developing their skills, but all that way behind them understanding that basketball is fun, that they need to give 100% for themselves and their teammates, and most important, don't be a jerk, and don't be like those those a--hole coaches.

[4everwarriors]

Sounds like LXXXII is the dude with da fairy tales, ai na? So, if ya can't sleep at night or are breakin' out in hives, just go ta confession and forfeit the mf'in game.

[MU82]

I'm not saying anything about you, because I don't know you as a person, but oddly enough I coach a middle school girls team and have for 10 years.  We were once an 8 seed and basically had a play in game to get the right to get destroyed by a 1 seed.  The coach of that team came to scout.  I was embarrassed for him.  I could have given him every play we ran with the same result, because that year I had 8 girls who had never played and we could barely get the ball across half court.   All I could think was that I hope he didn't have a family or children who would have benefited from him spending time with them.
I've had really good teams that have won it all, and very bad teams that have lost nearly every game. When I first started I was overly coachy, and as the years went, there were more and more coaches that made me sick, screaming at the girls and cursing at refs who made 20 bucks a game. Some of it was deplorable.
 I now try my best to make sure that the girls are learning as much as possible about the game, how offenses work, etc (girls watch SO much less basketball on TV which definitely puts them at a disadvantage at that age) and developing their skills, but all that way behind them understanding that basketball is fun, that they need to give 100% for themselves and their teammates, and most important, don't be a jerk, and don't be like those those a--hole coaches.

I ref youth basketball on the weekends. As a coach, I never scream at refs. I have raised my voice at my girls in a game exactly once in 2-plus years. My first year, just about nobody had ever played basketball; it was almost all about fundamentals and fun. My second year, I had five more new girls and again stressed learning and enjoying the experience. We happened to have great camaraderie and I think that made us a better team. I really like this year's team for the same reason. I do not believe any of the girls or the parents I have dealt with would accuse me of being an a-hole.

[MU82]

Sounds like LXXXII is the dude with da fairy tales, ai na? So, if ya can't sleep at night or are breakin' out in hives, just go ta confession and forfeit the mf'in game.

I don't even know what this all means.

[#UnleashSean]

I coach 6th-8th grade boys. Each year I move up with them until they go to high school, then I will start over. I don't coach to win, but to teach the kids how to play at a high school level. Sure with the teams I have I could easily win 95% of the games. But running a box and one and a zone press to shut down the one kid on the other team who can isn't going to teach them anything.

I usually converse with the high school coach on what his team is running in plays that year and usually incorporate that into my team.

Although I once had to prove a point to an overzealous dick of a coach who beat us and was going ballistic. The next time we played him, I made sure to beat them by 30.

[martyconlonontherun]

Do you have a daughter on the team or friends with a father on your team? Sounds like it would be 10x more beneficial/less creepy if you had went together and taught them how to do their own scouting.

[MU82]

Do you have a daughter on the team or friends with a father on your team? Sounds like it would be 10x more beneficial/less creepy if you had went together and taught them how to do their own scouting.

My daughter is well past that age. I was never her head coach but helped with several of her teams. I did not know a single person affiliated with the school when they hired me.

[Benny B]

I'm not saying anything about you, because I don't know you as a person, but oddly enough I coach a middle school girls team and have for 10 years.  We were once an 8 seed and basically had a play in game to get the right to get destroyed by a 1 seed.  The coach of that team came to scout.  I was embarrassed for him.  I could have given him every play we ran with the same result, because that year I had 8 girls who had never played and we could barely get the ball across half court.   All I could think was that I hope he didn't have a family or children who would have benefited from him spending time with them.
I've had really good teams that have won it all, and very bad teams that have lost nearly every game. When I first started I was overly coachy, and as the years went, there were more and more coaches that made me sick, screaming at the girls and cursing at refs who made 20 bucks a game. Some of it was deplorable.
 I now try my best to make sure that the girls are learning as much as possible about the game, how offenses work, etc (girls watch SO much less basketball on TV which definitely puts them at a disadvantage at that age) and developing their skills, but all that way behind them understanding that basketball is fun, that they need to give 100% for themselves and their teammates, and most important, don't be a jerk, and don't be like those those a--hole coaches.

What's the difference between a coach who spends an hour watching another teams' game and a coach who watches a Coaching Basketball for Dummies DVD for an hour.

Personally, I'd think that I could learn a heck of lot more watching how other teams are coached in real time, but maybe that's just me.  I'm a hands-on learner... so I guess that's why it's probably a good idea that I don't coach girls basketball, or any kids sports for that matter.

[tower912]

My favorite parent/fan input was when I was told by one parent that I was being too hard on the girls and 5 minutes later told by a different parent I was being too easy on them.    Right before a parent from the other team came up to me and told me that we were the best coached team they had played all year, that it was a shame we missed all of those open lay ups. I smiled and thanked them all for their input. 

[CTWarrior]

My favorite parent/fan input was when I was told by one parent that I was being too hard on the girls and 5 minutes later told by a different parent I was being too easy on them.    Right before a parent from the other team came up to me and told me that we were the best coached team they had played all year, that it was a shame we missed all of those open lay ups. I smiled and thanked them all for their input.

Listening to the parents is often the worse thing you could do, but I always listen to them after games with an open mind.

I always send out a written letter to all the parents my first day of practice when coaching pre-high school kids.  It basically has my philosophy of youth sports.  My first goal is to have the kids enjoy playing enough to want to keep playing in future years.  The second goal was to teach them to play properly so they learn and get better.  After those two things, we'll try to win the games.

The letter also said that I was the coach, and who the assistants were, and that I didn't want any other parents bothering the kids with coaching tips during the game.  On occasion if we were missing a coach, I may ask someone for help.

It also said that during games the only thing I want to hear from parents is encouragement of the kids.  I don't want them yelling at the refs/umpires, arguing with the other team, etc.  If I see parents not doing that (and truthfully, it would have to be egregious because I am concentrating on the kids and the game), I quietly pull the parent aside and have a chat with him/her about it.

Anyway, I find that if you are honest up front with what you expect, everything goes much more smoothly.  If I have a great player with problem parents, I will only have that kid once.  Life is too short.  It always amazes me how invested parents can get in organized youth sports, which are basically recreational.

[tower912]

I said a lot of the same things in a talk with all of the parents at the first practice.   Asked them all to stay and laid down the ground rules, expectations of them and their children, what we were going to try to accomplish, etc.   

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

My dad has coached varsity boys basketball for close to 30 years now and vsrsiry boys volleyball for close to 15. The worst things he has to deal with are grades and parents. Parents are the worst to deal with.

I'm with the freshmen this year and I've already gotten comments how I'm too young to know what I'm doing and we haven't even had a game yet.

[Benny B]

As much as I agree with giving the coaches wide latitude, it truly is painful to see a coach who hasn't a clue as to what is (or should be) going on when it comes to basic common sense... painful for the kids, that is.

Example: on my son's baseball team last year (5-7 year olds), the coach allows the kids to kneel when playing catcher.  When it was my kid's turn to play catcher I always yelled at him if he tried to kneel, and I'm sure the other parents thought I was some nutcase.  Until halfway into the season, one of the other kids who was kneeling behind the plate took a foul tip square in the quads and went down for a good five minutes.

Ironically, after that, I was the only parent who didn't have yell at my kid for kneeling for the remainder of the season.

Moral of the Story: Be a better coach, and everyone has more fun... even if it means watching other coaches/teams or listening to (some) parents once in a while.

[tower912]

I would not let a kid catch if he wasn't wearing a cup.   

[CTWarrior]

Example: on my son's baseball team last year (5-7 year olds...

For the little guys and baseball, the very first things you cover are safety related.  Never swing the bat unless the coach says its OK.  Never throw the ball to someone unless you are sure they are looking.  Squatting behind the plate is one of those safety things. 

I've had parents tell me about a drill now and then that another coach used that I've incorporated.  So it is good to keep an open mind.  But mostly you get stuff like why are you playing him here or her there... or my kid should play SS... or why does that kid play so much...   That stuff goes in one ear and out the other.

[MerrittsMustache]

As much as I agree with giving the coaches wide latitude, it truly is painful to see a coach who hasn't a clue as to what is (or should be) going on when it comes to basic common sense... painful for the kids, that is.

Example: on my son's baseball team last year (5-7 year olds), the coach allows the kids to kneel when playing catcher.  When it was my kid's turn to play catcher I always yelled at him if he tried to kneel, and I'm sure the other parents thought I was some nutcase.  Until halfway into the season, one of the other kids who was kneeling behind the plate took a foul tip square in the quads and went down for a good five minutes.

Ironically, after that, I was the only parent who didn't have yell at my kid for kneeling for the remainder of the season.

Moral of the Story: Be a better coach, and everyone has more fun... even if it means watching other coaches/teams or listening to (some) parents once in a while.

Why didn't you simply go to the coach and tell him the dangers of the catcher kneeling?

[Benny B]

Why didn't you simply go to the coach and tell him the dangers of the catcher kneeling?

I'm the only parent with a kid who wears a helmet with a facemask... so there's a good chance that anything I said related to "safety" would have been written off as the crazy, OCD-wrap-the-kids-in-bubble-tape helicopter parent.

Nevertheless, if every kid was doing it on every pitch, I probably would have.  Most of the kids started out the innings squatting and then went to their knees after a few batters... so perhaps the coach did teach it but wasn't enforcing it.  In any event, I played catcher myself, so to me, it was probably more about teaching him to play the position correctly than it was safety.

[RushmoreAcademy]

What's the difference between a coach who spends an hour watching another teams' game and a coach who watches a Coaching Basketball for Dummies DVD for an hour.

Personally, I'd think that I could learn a heck of lot more watching how other teams are coached in real time, but maybe that's just me.  I'm a hands-on learner... so I guess that's why it's probably a good idea that I don't coach girls basketball, or any kids sports for that matter.

Well the coaches scouting are usually the ones who have been coaching for 15 years.  It's different everywhere, based on level of play, level of experience of the players, etc. I understand that. In my case, I always just found it funny, laughing thinking about him writing: "#14 - dribbles ball off foot, missed rim with 4 consecutive shots."

[MU82]

UPDATE:

We won both games to improve to 4-0.

The team that lost the game I scouted was even worse the day we played them -- although I will say that my players probably were the most energetic and focused in the 2+ years I've coached them, so I like to think we made them look worse than they were. As I mentioned, this was our rival and a team we had lost to 5 straight times, including last year's championship game, and my kids were VERY psyched to finally beat them. This time, we won by 30+ and would have won by 60 if I kept the press on past the first 5 minutes.

The team that won the game I scouted was about what I expected. Quick and small, not very good shooters but tough and active. We didn't press them the entire first half because we had bad foul trouble but then I put it on during a time-out that had been called the opposing coach and we scored 10 points in 90 seconds to break open a close game. We ended up winning by 13 even though 4 of my starters and my top sub were in foul trouble most of the game and 3 of them ended up fouling out. (We are very aggressive by nature, and this probably was the most tightly-called game in my 2+ years.)

In retrospect, am I glad I scouted that game? Absolutely yes.

First, we only get to practice once a week and having a little knowledge made that one practice infinitely more efficient.

Second, we got to practice skills that I felt would make us a better team, not just in these two games but for the long run. We worked specifically at using ball fakes and/or bounce passes to feed the high post and also worked on having the high post feed the low post. In today's game, we scored three straight baskets on beautiful passes from our 4 to our 5 that we would not have been able to make a week ago. It's so cool to see the light bulb come on for young athletes!

Third, I think the way we prepared for these games even more firmly established me as a knowledgeable coach in the mind of the players. Not that I think they doubted me -- I'm quite sure they and their parents very much believe in me -- but I think I looked like even more of an authority. Kind of "See, I TOLD you that top-of-the-key 3 would be there because they'd sag on our high post."

So the mildly embarrassing "did I really just scout middle-school basketball?" factor faded pretty quickly as I got the satisfaction of seeing my kids respond to adversity (the foul trouble) and execute good, fundamental basketball plays and formations. The experience helped us improve as a team and helped individual players improve, too. And I think it helped me improve as a coach, as well.

I appreciate all the earlier responses, many of which made me laugh out loud and several of which gave me valuable perspective. Good luck to all of my fellow coaches in Scoopland!

[Dr. Blackheart]

All about the coaching...no matter how creepy

[MU82]

Won our conference championship tonight, the first title in school history, to wrap up our 19-2 season!

[Benny B]

Won our conference championship tonight, the first title in school history, to wrap up our 19-2 season!

And missed the MU / GTown game?  For shame.

[MU82]

And missed the MU / GTown game?  For shame.

That's why Al Gore invented the DVR, my friend!

I saw every second of our enjoyable win.

[keefe]

That's why Al Gore invented the DVR, my friend!

I saw every second of our enjoyable win.

I DVR'd tonight's game as I had a dinner tonight. Game went long and I missed the last 4 minutes.

[MU82]

I DVR'd tonight's game as I had a dinner tonight. Game went long and I missed the last 4 minutes.

C'mon, Crash, you're too old to make the rookie mistake of not adding at least an hour to any sports recording! Never know when they'll go to OT or extra innings or just long.